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Old 06-18-2012, 08:27 PM   #741
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
PhilsFan specifically made a comment about how he didn't like the "love the sinner, hate the sin" statement, and specifically referred to it as a statement of intolerance. That's what I'm responding to.
I know. I understand what "love the sinner, hate the sin" is supposed to mean overall, and I don't think in every instance it's an intolerant position to take.

But on the issue of homosexuality, PhilsFan would be right that it's a pretty insulting, intolerant phrase to use. Your response was discussing how everyone does things that many don't approve of, but they love them anyway, and how we're all guilty of "sin" and whatnot, which is true. But given that this thread relates to homosexuality, it came off like that issue is on the same level with any other instance where people do things that others don't like. I don't think it meant to read like that, but that's how it came across to me.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:42 PM   #742
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This is probably worthy of its own thread, but I find this perspective somewhat intellectually dishonest -- because "love the sinner, hate the sin" is how we treat ourselves all the time. We all do things that we disagree with all the time, don't we? We don't always live up to our own standards. We all have little white lies that we tell ourselves. At the same time, we don't throw ourselves out the window, do we? Nor do we labor under self-condemnation. We are all walking hypocrites of one stripe or another, regardless of our moral, religious, or spiritual creed. None of us measure up to our own standards. But at the same time, we all carry grace for ourselves -- we accept ourselves, despite the fact that we don't measure up. So why not carry that same grace for someone else? "I disagree with what you do/how you conduct yourself, but I still believe that you have inherent worth as a human being." To me, this is the essence of "love the sinner, hate the sin." Because I certainly don't hate myself, even though I sin all the time. So why should I hate someone else, just because I don't like what they do?
This doesn't hold up, though. When you use that phrase (which is almost exclusively used now by "compassionate" anti-gay orators), you are saying that gay people are okay as they are, just so long as they do not act on their natural inclinations. That's like saying it's okay to feel the need to sneeze so long as you never actually let one rip.

Telling lies and being gay are simply incomparable.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:51 PM   #743
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preaching to hate sin
is still preaching to hate people, even striaght people.


you can not hate sin, without hating people, sin requires people

birds don't sin, trees don't sin

for a sin to be, there has to be a person sinning, I suppose if someone was stealing, one could say something stupid like, only their hand is stealing and cut if off.
For someone to believe and practice that they would have to follow a belief system that incorporates stupidity.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:33 PM   #744
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
preaching to hate sin
is still preaching to hate people, even striaght people.
I disagree.

This really does deserve it's own thread--indeed I thought there was one a few years ago, because I think this has much to do with people's hangups about sin period as it does with homosexuality.

You wouldn't say that it's odd for people to hate the cancer but love the patient. After all the cancer is slowly killing the patient--of course you'd "hate" it. That's how most Christians view sin--as something that is slowly killing the person.

The key to understanding is to put yourself in someone else's shoes, and if you want to understand (and thus maybe even change the minds) of some Christians, you have to be able to see things from their perspective.

For the record, I don't believe that homosexuality or "homosexual behaviors" are sins. I think the Salvation Army is mistaken in that regard. And I came to that conviction through two things: One, having a former student who is a close friend of the family come out, and second having Melon step into my shoes and help me see a way that my convictions about the validity of scripture and my heartfelt belief that homosexuality couldn't be wrong could coincide. He treated me with respect, tried to understand where I was coming from, and didn't say asinine things like "Why you can't you just believe this. . ." (That's like me telling an atheist, "But why can't you just believe in God!")

So no, I don't believe homosexuality is a sin. But I do believe in the idea of sin.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:51 PM   #745
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I disagree.

This really does deserve it's own thread--indeed I thought there was one a few years ago, because I think this has much to do with people's hangups about sin period as it does with homosexuality.

You wouldn't say that it's odd for people to hate the cancer but love the patient. After all the cancer is slowly killing the patient--of course you'd "hate" it. That's how most Christians view sin--as something that is slowly killing the person.

The key to understanding is to put yourself in someone else's shoes, and if you want to understand (and thus maybe even change the minds) of some Christians, you have to be able to see things from their perspective.
after I wrote that I drove to Del Taco and got a burrito and a taco, as I was driving I was thinking about how some might respond, and I thought of hating cancer, but loving the patient and that someone might put it in that context.

well, for the record I don't hate religion or religious people, and I do think we are at our best in here when we try and understand the other person's point of view. I have changed my mind when I have listened to others positions presented in a reasonable manner.

Many of my immediate family are religious as are many friends, and you Sean, though we have not met I consider you a friend.

We have discussed sin in here before, it would be nice if we could have an inclusive, thoughtful discussion. As I was driving home I thought I might start a new threat inclusive of that.
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Old 06-18-2012, 10:01 PM   #746
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I guess that's the thing, for me I always associate the word "sin" with religion, and since I'm not all that religious, that word doesn't stick with me the way it does others. I don't use it to describe things I consider bad. Add in that with some things, like murder or rape or abuse, "sin" seems too simple a word to describe the horror of those actions. A "sin" seems like something that can be fixed. But the horrible actions mentioned in the last sentence...those aren't as fixable.
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Old 06-19-2012, 04:30 AM   #747
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Thankfully, the Australian arm of the Salvos has distanced itself from the parent organisation.

And I'm sorry, I'm trying to see how their stance is respectful or compassionate, I really am, but when you break it down, it reads like this: "You can be gay if you want. That's your business. We'll still help you. But god forbid you ever so much as think about acting on your disgusting, despicable urges. Control yourself, read the bible, see the light, and do the right thing. Be straight."
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:51 AM   #748
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That used to be the Catholic position, actually.

It's only recently that they've affixed the downfall of civilization and the destruction of the natural order of things on the shoulders of gay people and would rather deny services to the poor rather than, god forbid, extend health care benefits to same-sex partners.

The Salvation Army seems positively enlightened in comparison.
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Old 06-19-2012, 05:45 PM   #749
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Strong public support for same-sex marriage exceeds strong opposition by a significant margin for the first time in ABC News/Washington Post polls, and African-Americans have moved more in favor, perhaps taking their lead from Barack Obama on the issue.

Overall, 53 percent of Americans say gay marriage should be legal, steady the past year but up from 36 percent in just 2006. Thirty-nine percent “strongly” support it, while 32 percent are strongly opposed – the first time strong sentiment has tilted positive. Six years ago, by contrast, strong views on the issue were negative by a broad 27-point margin.
I have said dozens of times here, over a number of years, that time waits for no man.

This is a lost cause for the GOP and social conservatives in general. Question is when they all collectively and officially decide to give up (like their counterparts in a number of other countries).
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:44 PM   #750
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http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/06/22/...ow-take-backs/

Quote:
IN my 2007 book, “The Future of Marriage,” and in my 2010 court testimony concerning Proposition 8, the California ballot initiative that defined marriage as between a man and a woman, I took a stand against gay marriage. But as a marriage advocate, the time has come for me to accept gay marriage and emphasize the good that it can do. I’d like to explain why.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/23/op...nged.html?_r=1
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:52 PM   #751
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Maggie and the right no longer have their token liberal to trot out anymore.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:56 PM   #752
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also:

Mary Cheney marries longtime partner | Gay Star News

they have at least 2 children together.
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Old 06-22-2012, 05:58 PM   #753
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His change of heart rings a little hollow with me. It strikes me more as one of convenience, seeing that the "national elites" and a growing number of young Americans favour gay marriage.

Quote:
I don’t believe that opposite-sex and same-sex relationships are the same, but I do believe, with growing numbers of Americans, that the time for denigrating or stigmatizing same-sex relationships is over.
Still, I suppose it's progress, right?
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:03 PM   #754
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It does acknowledge the unavoidable truth: the vast majority of people who oppose SSM do so out of animus.

I understand most people don't want their kids to be gay. Believe me. I've lived that. But opposing gay marriage won't make your kids straight.
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #755
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Oh noez, gay Oreos!!

How Could ANYONE Boycott A Cookie?!?!
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Old 06-26-2012, 12:53 PM   #756
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that's news

everybody knows, cookies are gay
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:02 PM   #757
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Those comments make me sad.

On a lighter note, I kinda want to eat that cookie now .
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:03 PM   #758
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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post

On a lighter note, I kinda want to eat that cookie now .
I was just thinking how I don't even like Oreos but I'd eat them out of spite now.
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Old 06-26-2012, 07:35 PM   #759
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I am going to buy them and feed them to unsuspecting straight children.




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Old 06-26-2012, 07:36 PM   #760
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Y'know, I don't support SSM, but seeing things like that make me want to change my mind.
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