Ronald Reagan Mark II (the soap box thread)

[melon]

I'll put this delicately. I feel sorry for anyone who is about to die, but I dread the aftermath of his death. His "fan club" will want to slap his name and image on everything from schools to statues to holidays. That kind of Soviet idol worship bothers me, and would, of course, be incredibly ironic.

His eventual death was a day I knew was coming (by sheer logic; the man both has Alzheimer's Disease and is in his 90s), but it was one that I dreaded actually happening.

Melon

 

[Seabird]

he inspired a generation of americans who grew up with the fear of the cold war. for that he will be forever remembered and revered. may he rest in peace.

As someone, like U2, who was born with the Berlin wall, raised with the fear of the cold war, and never thought I'd see it all end in my lifetime, I honor him for helping to bring down Communism in Europe. I don't believe it would have fallen if not for his policies, his 'evil empire' speech, his "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" That is a major thing in the history of the world. I have gone from someone who grew up with the fear of nuclear war and being afraid of Communism spreading here, to someone with teenage children who laugh at the prospect of the cold war and ask, "come on, Mom, you guys didn't really believe the Russians were going to blow you up, did you? That's so silly!" They have grown up not knowing what I felt and feared and thinking how insignificant it was and how brief in time it was in the history of the world.

No matter what some of you may hate him for, I will remember him as great for that. It is a huge important thing that casts quite a shadow on anything else.

 

[melon]

I only have a Machiavellian admiration for the man; how to fuck over the working class, while still attracting a fan club. The economic policies he fostered nearly ruined my family, and, for that, I can never forgive him. Lucky for him, the son of his VP makes him look "benevolent," in comparison, and my hatred of that man has now been replaced by a hatred for the current president.

But I will be *very nice* in this thread, and not debate this further. I will give him the kindness that his administration would never have returned to me; but I will conclude with this: I hope he is prepared to meet his maker.

Melon

 

[STING2]

I only have a Machiavellian admiration for the man; how to fuck over the working class, while still attracting a fan club. The economic policies he fostered nearly ruined my family, and, for that, I can never forgive him. Lucky for him, the son of his VP makes him look "benevolent," in comparison, and my hatred of that man has now been replaced by a hatred for the current president.

But I will be *very nice* in this thread, and not debate this further. I will give him the kindness that his administration would never have returned to me; but I will conclude with this: I hope he is prepared to meet his maker.

Melon

I think this thread should be reserved for comments that say respectful things about this great man and president who has just passed away.

 

[nbcrusader]

Most may not remember the 70's, when America as a whole was stuck in a malaise. The era was represented by the taking of American hostages by Iranian students. The failed rescue effort left the populace feeling hopeless and defeated.

Like him or not, Reagan gave his country leadership and hope. We ended the 1980's much stronger than we began.

God bless his soul.

 

[RockNRollDawgie]

It's been said not to talk badly about one who has just died,
so no comment.

 

[Zooropa]

Melon, Dawgee...
If you have nothing nice to say, there is no need to come into this thread and say so. Don't come in. There is a time and a place to debate politics, this isn't it. Show some respect.

 

[Seabird]

Most may not remember the 70's, when America as a whole was stuck in a malaise. The era was represented by the taking of American hostages by Iranian students. The failed rescue effort left the populace feeling hopeless and defeated.

Like him or not, Reagan gave his country leadership and hope. We ended the 1980's much stronger than we began.

God bless his soul.

I remember the Jimmy Carter days well. They were my high school years. I remember that jobs were starting to go out of the country and the ones that stayed were cutting wages to compete. I remember gas going from 59 cents in 1977 to over a dollar in 1979, and it would rise as high as $1.59 before it fell. That's the highest I had ever seen it before this recent surge. Inflation was out of control. The hostage thing was a humiliation to us at the time. Carter put economic strains on my family. My brother and his wife had 2 baby sons and came within hours of losing their house in the summer of '80, and would have if family and friends had not come through in an "It's A Wonderful Life" way. I gave all my high school graduation money to that fund, and I never got it back. Worst of all to me, Carter was discussing reinstating the military draft, only this time it would include women. I was 18, and terrified. In those days, people my age were convinced there'd be a war in Iran and we'd all go and die.

So I hope you can see and understand how frustrated and crying for change I was when I campaigned for Ronald Reagan in 1980. I worked the telephones and on election day I was at the polls. The old ladies who were in charge were so proud of me they made sure I got one of those invitations, which were in very limited supply. Even though I couldn't really go, it was an honor.

In those days, he was called "Ronald Raygun" by his detractors, and they were sure he'd push "the button" and start all kinds of wars. But did he? No, in 8 years he used less military force than either Bush or even Clinton did. His was a talk big but keep a big arsenal position, peace through strength, but letting the enemy know there was always that threat. It worked. The Soviet Union, the country that had declared "we will bury you" to us, had buried itself, from the inside. The fall of the Berlin wall and European Communism was a miracle and a dream come true beyond belief. It happened so fast, and without much violence. I still can't believe it.

As a person who lived through the 80's as a grown up, went to junior college, worked, got married and had 2 kids in the 80's, I could never understand why his term is criticized for ecomomic reasons. For most people it was a prosperous time. I saw the skyline of my city change dramatically in the 80's as bank buildings shot up like beanstalks almost overnight. At the beginning of the 80's, it was only the old who could get in an RV and head out on vacation. There used to be a joke, see an RV, see an old person driving. By the end of the 80's, RV's had young people with little kids and bikes on the back going down the road. Not everyone prospered. I didn't grab the brass ring. But I don't blame Ronald Reagan for that, it was my own lack of action and mistakes. It was there for the taking. The 90's brought much worse financial conditions for me, and under Clinton our family health care costs tripled for less services. I could write a book on all this, but this is not the time or the place. All I'm saying is, I lived though those times and I think Reagan deserves respect for his accomplishments.

 

[melon]

For most people it was a prosperous time. I saw the skyline of my city change dramatically in the 80's as bank buildings shot up like beanstalks almost overnight. At the beginning of the 80's, it was only the old who could get in an RV and head out on vacation. There used to be a joke, see an RV, see an old person driving. By the end of the 80's, RV's had young people with little kids and bikes on the back going down the road. Not everyone prospered. I didn't grab the brass ring. But I don't blame Ronald Reagan for that, it was my own lack of action and mistakes. It was there for the taking. The 90's brought much worse financial conditions for me, and under Clinton our family health care costs tripled for less services. I could write a book on all this, but this is not the time or the place. All I'm saying is, I lived though those times and I think Reagan deserves respect for his accomplishments.

Arrrrgh...I'm trying to be respectful now, but now I have to comment on this! It was only properous for an area referred to as the "Sun Belt," which basically included Southern and Western states (hence, the word "sun"). This prosperity was at the expense of Northern and Midwestern industrial states, where they, in turn, received the nickname the "Rust Belt." So what was the determining factor between the "Sun Belt" and the "Rust Belt"? Cheap, non-union labor in the "Sun Belt." I blame this mostly on the deregulatory and anti-union climate that his administration fostered. If he had not deregulated certain key laws, it would not have been as financially advantageous for corporations to have literally shifted their high paying jobs south. This is probably why, as a Northerner, I have a bit of resentment here, but, in time, perhaps the "Sun Belt" will understand what I'm referring to, as corporations, under the same deregulatory climate still in existence, is shifting their jobs to even lower paying parts of the world. That's the thing: corporations can always find chumps to work for less, and we will never be able to compete with third-world nations that work for the equivalent of $2.00 a day, in some cases.

Secondly, health care, in general, is a mess in this nation, and I'm unsure as to whether Clinton deserves to be blamed for it, although I will let you explain further, if you'd like. When he tried to do something with health care in his first term, he was laughed down by Congress. It is also the Republican Party which is most resistant to any substantial change in health care costs, because the pharmaceutical industries and insurance companies that support it are most resistant to any change that would affect their profit margin.

Anyway, moderators, I encourage you to spin this discussion off into another thread, if you find it to be disrespectful. I could not, however, let this go without commenting.

Melon

 

[Seabird]

I am from a 'sun belt' state. But as someone who lived through this and was always interested in politics and history and demographics, I can tell you for a fact the 'rust belt' problems started under Jimmy Carter. That's what I meant when I said jobs were going overseas and the ones that stayed the wages were cut drastically. The gravy train was over. It couldn't be restored. But it wasn't Reagan's fault, and I don't even totally blame Jimmy Carter. I blame "free trade" more than anything or anyone else for lost jobs and wages.

I dated a guy in Aug- Sept. of 1980 who was 22 and had worked for Reynolds sheet metal since he was 18. He had been making $15.00 per hour, a good amount in those days. One day he said his boss called him in and told him they were being cut back to $8.00 per hour, take it or take a hike. They could no longer compete with the foreign markets.

I can remember as a kid in the 60's and growing up in the 70's, we would drive by the old Bristol steel factory. At night it would be all lit up, glowing and the smoke pouring out all around it. People were in there working. By 1980, it was dark and silent. Closed. It sat there ghostly and lonely and remained empty until 2001 when a bridge company bought it out.

These and other things happened before Ronald Reagan ever took the oath of office. I saw it myself.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

Whatever happened to respect for someone who has just passed? You know, not everyone agreed with JFK yet he is admired by all as an important president. When it comes time for CLinton to pass, I will refrain from slandering his name. I may not have been a fan of his policies, but he was our President elected by the people; therefore he deserves our respect. John Kerry has taken time to honor Reagan and mentioned that though he was often in disagreement with his policies he was a great American. Isn't that the way politics should be? We should disagree on the political level but still treat others in the mannere we want. Let's leave out vitriol and hatred for the time being.

 

[RockNRollDawgie]

"Facts are stupid things".......Ronald Reagan.


"Ketchup is a vegetable".......Ronald Reagan

 

[Seabird]

Looks like someone edited the message I was about to quote. I had it and I could have posted it, but since you did decide against it I had the courtesy not to. But I have to say this anyway, I see you said the 'revisionist views' of his presidency made you sick and I assume you must mean my posts. How old are you, were you there? I was. I lived through the whole thing as a grown person. I didn't get my info from some biased book or website, those are the real 'revisionist histories.'

Every President's 'watch' has good and bad and none have been a paradise. Neither was Clinton's. I don't think it's fair to blame a president for every single wrong thing in a country, he's not a God, he's not even a dictator, he can't do magic.

It is sad when someone's death only gives people a reason to bring them up as a bashing topic.

That's all. RIP RR.

 

[melon]

Thanks, Seabird, for your comments. I appreciate what you have said.

What is done is done, and what I will say is that the climate of the 1980s, whether influenced by Reagan or the laissez-faire climate of "free trade," is what has molded me today. As someone who has a lot of interests (the reason why I tend to have an opinion on everything), when I went to college, I purposely studied for a career that I knew could eventually not be exported. At one point, I had more of an interest in multimedia / web design, but the minute I realized that IT jobs were being exported to India, I shifted back towards video production. Creative and professional fields, ultimately, are the only ones that really cannot be outsourced.

So, in retrospect, I cannot look at this man in such polar terms. I hate him most, perhaps, out of being taught to, and it was such hatred that influenced my parents to try and break the pattern by sending me to private schools, which, in turn, heavily encourage going to college. And here I am, on the dawn of getting my master's degree (with a mountain of debt, though, which would not have been the case in the 1970s or prior), and I'm reminded that even the most negative experiences can forge a world of difference. The most extreme example I can think of is the impact of World War II; a conflict that caused so much death and destruction, but the aftermath allowed the Western world to rebuild into the power and wealth that it is today.

Thus, in the ashes of my youth, I have rebuilt into what I am today, and, for that, I'm unsure as to what I feel about this old man, from an economic POV (I am undeniably against the social conservatism that his administration also fostered). Needless to say, with his death and the twilight of my education, it is time to bury him and my youthful resentment, focusing instead on the present.

Rest in peace, Ronald Reagan, and I do hope you end up in heaven...because then I think that everyone will.

Melon

 

[Angela Harlem]

This thread makes little sense now, and the title is mine, not melon's . Please use this to debate Mr Regan, not the other thread.

Thank you.

 

[verte76]

Ronald Reagan did his part fighting passionately for what he believed in. It often was not what I believed, since I became a die-hard lefty, much more than I am now, in fact. I was jokingly named "the leader of the Eugene V. Debs Lefty Brigade" by a friend. I am not particularly proud of my political views in the early '80's, but I don't sweep them under the rug and claim I never had them. That would be dishonest. Some interesting things were going on in Eastern Europe that would take the world by storm. First, Lech Walesa started the first non-state labor union in the Communist world, Solidarity, in 1980. He went through pure hell for this. He got busted and thrown in jail, and the union was busted. The whole thing paid off when he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1983. He was publicly praised by President Reagan the day after the award was announced. That certainly didn't hurt. Meanwhile the Pope had visited Communist Poland twice. He'd supported dissidents as a Cardinal in Poland, and he didn't change when he was elected Pope. He also visited the United States. Reagan helped the Pope in this cause when he decided to recognize the Vatican politically, and ambassadors were exchanged for the first time. Then Mikhail Gorbechev became head of state in the Soviet Union, and started the reforms called glastnost and perestroika, openness and more freedom. The cat was out of the bag, and there was no going back to the days of Breshnev. In 1989 Central and Eastern Europeans showed their strength and kicked their communist dictators out on their asses. In retrospect Reagan had something to do with this, I admit. I sure as hell didn't want to admit it at the time. He supported the right people at the right time. He didn't do it by himself. I think it was more moral support than anything else. I feel that credit must be given to the Pope, to Lech Walesa, to brave dissidents like Vaclav Havel (who I wanted for *my* president), and, yes, to Mikhail Gorbachev, who decided not to invade or intervene to stop the political changes in Eastern Europe. Remember, Breshnev sent tanks into Prague during the liberalization of 1968 to bring Czechoslovakia back into the "safe" communist fold. But hey, blue jeans in Moscow, Prague, Warsaw and Berlin didn't hurt.

 

[Dreadsox]

You cannot separate the good things that he did do for the country from the bad.....

JFK did some good things too, however, much of what was bad or wrong with what he did has been whitewashed because of the tradjic way he left us.

Reagan will go into the books as being a better than avergare president, boardering on the level of the great ones. Partially, because he inherited a Presidency that had been tarnished by Vietnam, Watergate, Oil Crisis, and Inflation.

Like some here I remember the gas lines. I remember watching people only allowed to fill up on certain days of the week depending on even and odd license plates on their cars.

Whatever you think of him, he did bring respect back to the office.

 

[RockNRollDawgie]

Facts are stupid things".......Ronald Reagan.


"Ketchup is a vegetable".......Ronald Reagan


'Tis true....I deleted my original post.
It may have been a bit angry and sarcastic.
I'll try to cut down on the anger.

I remember Reagan very clearly as a president.
And in my rememberances, it was not a pretty sight.

Reagan had charisma. He read the lines given to him very well at press conferences, as any trained actor would.
He was playing the part of a president. And yes, at times,
his B-movie acting abilites shown through in flying colors.
He instilled pride back to being in American, but at what
the cost? And what sort of America?
His "economic policies" started the trend that George Bush
is happily continuing. Run up a debt........bankrupt the country.
Lying to Congress about "Iran/Contra."
Too lazy to mention any of the other "great" things Reagan did.

 

[Bono's shades]

My local paper really went to town on covering Reagan's death today. We had huge front page coverage, some more coverage inside and even a special section. It was all overwhelmingly positive, with only the fleetest mentions of some of the less-than-stellar moments of his presidency (Iran-Contra, etc.) I can certainly understand people wanting to dwell on the positive rather than the negative when someone has just passed away, but I kind of got a sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. I hope this whitewashed version of Reagan isn't what gets passed down in the history books, but I'm afraid that's exactly what's going to happen.

 

[DaveC]

Rest in peace, Ronald Reagan, and I do hope you end up in heaven...because then I think that everyone will.

That's really cold.

 

[melon]

That's really cold.

It's a testament and joke to my confliction over the man. No frostiness intended.

But if you are looking for adoration, I'd try the other Reagan thread; the one which is more suited for adoration than this one. I am leaving that one alone, out of respect.

Melon

 

[deep]

Facts are stupid things".......Ronald Reagan.


"Ketchup is a vegetable".......Ronald Reagan


'Tis true....I deleted my original post.
It may have been a bit angry and sarcastic.
I'll try to cut down on the anger.

I remember Reagan very clearly as a president.
And in my rememberances, it was not a pretty sight.

Reagan had charisma. He read the lines given to him very well at press conferences, as any trained actor would.
He was playing the part of a president. And yes, at times,
his B-movie acting abilites shown through in flying colors.
He instilled pride back to being in American, but at what
the cost? And what sort of America?
His "economic policies" started the trend that George Bush
is happily continuing. Run up a debt........bankrupt the country.
Lying to Congress about "Iran/Contra."
Too lazy to mention any of the other "great" things Reagan did.

I have stated that I believe W is the worst President of all time.

I was around for the 70s and remember much of the 60s.

Reagan had innate political skills, wrote many of his speeches or edited them to conform to his thoughts.

He did delegate. But had at least a reasonable grasp of his administration. (unlike W).

Here is a quote, "Hard work never killed anybody,
but why risk it." Self-depreciating humor.


His biggest failing; He gave ARMS to the ayatollah. That is much worst than Carter?s botched rescue attempt. He might have been impeached. He had the smarts to address the American people and tell them he lied.

Clinton stole this from Reagan?s playbook. They were both able to keep the support of the American people.

The 90s rabid house Republicans were not as smart as the 80s Dems.

Aside from FDR, Reagan will probably be rated the most influential President of the twentieth century.

 

[nbcrusader]

Presidents will steal from Reagan's playbook for years to come. Many may not remember, but pre-Reagan, "conservative" was a bad word - much like many on the left lament how "liberal" is used as a bad word today.

Reagan changed that. Conservatism was not the end of the world. We were told, among other things, that Reagan would lead us to nuclear war and to deficites that would never end. Both never materialized.

 

[DaveC]

I'm not looking for adoration.

But suggesting the man is going to hell or that if he gets into Heaven it's undeserved is poor taste regardless.

 

[U2Kitten]

You mean we have a nice thread and an it's okay to bash him thread? Separating them still isn't respectful. Regardless of which thread a person posts in, the man is still just as dead

I know we are all free to express opinions here, but couldn't his enemies have at least waited until after the funeral?

 

[wolfeden]

Found today:

Pray for Reagan

God,

Please have mercy on Ronald Reagan and keep him in your Grace.

Allow your Angels, the thousands that died from neglectful funding of AIDS research, to comfort him and take him to your Heaven.

May you show him and his family the kindness and love, the compassion and thoughtfulness he was unable to show the thousands that needed the assistance of public funding with hospitalization and now roam the streets.

God, let the Light of Your Begotten Son shine on his casket as he lay in State for days and days in the Capitol, the National Cathedral, and in Simi Valley ? reminding all those who see it that we are not allowed to honor the soldiers who are being brought home in caskets from the Middle East because cameras are banned.

Father in Heaven, please show him the fatherly love, forgiveness, and mercy he was not able to have toward his children.

Lord, may all the children who have passed into your Glory because they did not have proper nutrition, housing, education, or mothers who could have pre-natal care, teach him how to live in your Love and Mercy.

Heavenly Father, may the soldiers who have died from neglect because of the continuous funding cuts throughout the 80's for VA benefits be the ones to guard him and keep him and his family from sorrow and harm.

May Heaven and all its Glory show him the true meaning of your words AND ACTIONS.

In your name we pray.

 

[nbcrusader]

Reagan had charisma. He read the lines given to him very well at press conferences, as any trained actor would.
He was playing the part of a president. And yes, at times,
his B-movie acting abilites shown through in flying colors.
He instilled pride back to being in American, but at what
the cost? And what sort of America?
His "economic policies" started the trend that George Bush
is happily continuing. Run up a debt........bankrupt the country.
Lying to Congress about "Iran/Contra."
Too lazy to mention any of the other "great" things Reagan did.

History is already proving this wrong. He was never the actor playing a role written by someone else.

 

[stammer476]

Whenever I feel a political debate coming on, I often back out. It's been my experience that political debate brings out the worst in humanity. We see black and white, democrat and republican, conservative and liberal, and leave our most basic and true regard for fellow man at the door while we look for a good shot to the other side. If I ever need further proof to back this belief, I'll be sure to make a copy of this thread.

You (I would name names, but you know who you are) should be ashamed of yourselves and your careless words. I hope that your life is never so important and public that people can criticize you within days of your death. Have respect and have a heart.

And grow up.

 

[melon]

(I would name names, but you know who you are)

Name names. I want to know who you're directing this to. I would hope that it is not me, but it wouldn't be the first time that I have elicited a negative response here.

The fact that this is in a separate thread is due to my request, as I did not want to tarnish the other thread, for those who wanted to honor him. Reagan wanted a cultural revolution and he got it; and, with anyone who was this influential (and that I will concede), there are bound to be strong emotions on both sides.

I'm conflicted. I no longer hate him, like I once did, but I am attempting to reconcile his impact on society with how this nation should move forward. This is more of a personal journey, I guess, but my beginning processes tend to be more "vocal."

Anyhow, I wanted to make myself clear, before you jumped to any conclusions, if you directed that thread at me. Some people honor a man by doing nothing but lavishing romanticist praise; I tend to do it through discussion. Pardon me if my departure from tradition is a bit discordant, but I was never one for tradition.

Of course, if one looks at Reagan and his experiment with supply-side economics and his approach to foreign policy, it appears that he was never one for tradition either. Maybe he and I have more in common than I'd like to think.

Melon

 

[Screaming Flower]

We see black and white, democrat and republican, conservative and liberal, and leave our most basic and true regard for fellow man at the door while we look for a good shot to the other side.

i agree with this statement 100%, although i didn't think of melon when i read it. i was thinking more of wolfeden's poem that was posted in both reagan threads. i find it disgusting to make a "prayer" out of such hatred and contempt. i also agree that some people just fall in line with a certain philosophy or belief system without really taking a step back and seeing the whole picture.