RIP Saddam

[meegannie]

I don't think anyone here is forgiving him. Some are capable of seeing however, that he was human no matter how evil his actions.

Honestly I didn't think this was such a hard concept to grasp, but I guess I was wrong.

I think there's a danger in demonizing a person or group of people and regarding them as something less than human and something "other" than us. That kind of thinking is exactly what we (well, most of us, I'd imagine) condemn, and it's what leads people to feel little or no compunction about the humiliation, torture or even murder of an individual or entire group of people. If we see people like Saddam as some sort of aberrant, larger than life evil, we increase the likelihood of the same sort of atrocities happening again because we run the risk of missing warning signs in others and even ourselves. I don't think we should whitewash his (or anyone else's) life just because he's dead, but I also don't think we should just dismiss his deeds as the actions of an animal or a devil. It's not about sentimentality or approval of his actions; it's about taking the moral high ground, respect for humanity and the belief in basic human rights. I don't see how becoming (to any degree) what we abhor will do anything other than perpetuate a cycle that we're supposedly trying to stop.

 

[Zoomerang96]

Yeah, only due to people like you.

whatever that means.

i'm so proud how many of you are willing to take the so called "high road" in all of this, and have completely failed to see the point that some others along with myself have made.

way to go, gang! super stuff!

 

[indra]

whatever that means.

i'm so proud how many of you are willing to take the so called "high road" in all of this, and have completely failed to see the point that some others along with myself have made.

way to go, gang! super stuff!

You agreed with shart, honey. Your credibility is shot.

 

[Zoomerang96]

don't talk to me about credibility.

if that's the best you can do, then don't bother.

but hypothetically, and if i could give even a relatively adequate sized piece of shit as to what you may or may not think of me, if my credibility is indeed shot for not being at all sad that saddam is dead then so be it.

some of you have never lived outside your own walls.

others have.

reading what anitram has to say about what she's all been through, it's opinions like that that mean the most to me.

armchair pundits who fail to understand what myself and others were merely pointing out are acting absurd

ha... "goutrage"

looking back, this sort of reminds me in a different way of everyone's reaction to michael richard's racist tirade a while back.

people sure were pissed off about that. that was the moral thing to do!

but a man who's responsible for the execution/death of thousands upon thousands is apparently deserving of an rip thread.

the point is lost on you.

 

[Axver]

looking back, this sort of reminds me in a different way of everyone's reaction to michael richard's racist tirade a while back.

people sure were pissed off about that. that was the moral thing to do!

but a man who's responsible for the execution/death of thousands upon thousands is apparently deserving of an rip thread.

A racist tirade is by no means comparable to the death of a human. You sound ridiculous.

the point is lost on you.

You've made no point for us to lose. The only people who have failed to get the point are people like you who continue to spew forth nonsense and misrepresent the position of those of us who actually have a basic respect for human life.

 

[Zoomerang96]

oh, and before anyone dares to even suggest that i in anyway support what richard's said... just don't.

i had to clarify...

cause i never know with some of you.

 

[Zoomerang96]

hahaha

YES

it actually happened... someone did what i really didn't think would

oh yes, this is gold.

keep it coming.

 

[shart1780]

Please.

Putting Saddam to death is by no means stuping to his level. Cutting his fingers off inch by inch and slowly lowering him into a chipper shredder would be. The point of his excecution wasn't to make him experience unbelievable agony like he made his "enemies" experience. The point was to simply rid the world of evil.

Now, I agree there may have been a shred of good in Saddam, but that good never surfaced or made any sort of impact. His EVIL actions are the ones that spoke the loudest. Sure, he may have saved a kitten or gave a little girl candy once or twice in his lifetime, but that doesn't somehow make up for him being one of the most evil men in hundreds of years.

Like I said, we're not stuping to Saddam's level in any way. Why did Saddam torture the people he hated? Because he enjoyed their pain and suffering. He was evil. When we killed Saddam we weren't all saying "ohhhh yes, look at him squirm. I love to see his pain and agony because we hate him soooo much." It wasn't like that at all. Like I said, I'm not happy that a human being had to die, but I am very happy that the world had been rid of such evil. I don't feel guilty for that at all.

In your mind no one should ever be killed no matter how many people they mercilessly destroyed. In my mind THAT'S a lack of respect for life.

Tell me, do you EVER believe in war?

 

[Zoomerang96]

You've made no point for us to lose. The only people who have failed to get the point are people like you who continue to spew forth nonsense and misrepresent the position of those of us who actually have a basic respect for human life.

i have no basic respect for human life?

honestly axver, you have absolutely no idea.

absolutely none.

do not EVER assume such a heavy assertion without ANYTHING to back it up.

ask me a something about illness. i could tell you a few stories.

ask me about funerals
i could tell you a few i've attended

oh yeah, i'm sure we all could

again
do not EVER assert something so incredibly careless about me again.

 

[anitram]

Tell me, do you EVER believe in war?

In a perfect world, I would say no. But we don't live in a perfect world and unfortunately our reality is that some people seem to understand only the language of violence. If every person on this planet took on a view of non-violence and pacifism, there would be no war. But we don't live in this utopia, we live on Earth.

That said, all this bullshit you hear about how "war is horrible" and "collateral damage is horrible but it happens" always comes out of the mouths of people who have no idea whatsoever what war is like and is frankly condescending. In fact, I find that the people here (and I guess in the real world too) who have the most to say about war are ones who have no actual experience of it. But they certainly crow the loudest about its benefits (or the opposite).

 

[Zoomerang96]

Please.

Putting Saddam to death is by no means stuping to his level. Cutting his fingers off inch by inch and slowly lowering him into a chipper shredder would be. The point of his excecution wasn't to make him experience unbelievable agony like he made his "enemies" experience. The point was to simply rid the world of evil.

Now, I agree there may have been a shred of good in Saddam, but that good never surfaced or made any sort of impact. His EVIL actions are the ones that spoke the loudest. Sure, he may have saved a kitten or gave a little girl candy once or twice in his lifetime, but that doesn't somehow make up for him being one of the most evil men in hundreds of years.

Like I said, we're not stuping to Saddam's level in any way. Why did Saddam torture the people he hated? Because he enjoyed their pain and suffering. He was evil. When we killed Saddam we weren't all saying "ohhhh yes, look at him squirm. I love to see his pain and agony because we hate him soooo much." It wasn't like that at all. Like I said, I'm not happy that a human being had to die, but I am very happy that the world had been rid of such evil. I don't feel guilty for that at all.

In your mind no one should ever be killed no matter how many people they mercilessly destroyed. In my mind THAT'S a lack of respect for life.

Tell me, do you EVER believe in war?

no doubt people will associate myself with posters such as this.

shart, it's your opinion, so be it.

but i shudder if people think this is where i'm coming from... if so then please re-read everything i've said again.

 

[shart1780]

Anitram,

I agree wth what you're saying, although I don't really see what you're getting at. Are you saying war is necessary sometimes but a tremendous amount of respect needs to be shown when it comes to war?

If so, I agree. I sometimes get extremely angry when people say things like "well, why don't we just bomb the **** out of them?" I get to wondering if these people have don't care about the millions that may suffer because of such actions. Hiroshima is an example. I'm not extremely educated on the subject, but to me it seems like we could have made the point to our enemies in a way that didn't harm so many innocents. Heck, sometimes I can't help but cry when I see footage of the bomb going off. It's horrible stuff. Did it need to be done? I don't really think so, but I could be wrong.

Anyways, death is sometimes necessary but it sure as heck sucks.

 

[Axver]

i have no basic respect for human life?

You certainly seem incapable of recognising that despite Saddam's actions, he was nonetheless human and it is sad when any human's life is unnaturally cut short. If I have misinterpreted your posts, it is because they are only semi-coherent anyway. I can point to a few where I have no idea what you're on about. I even called you out over on the other thread.

 

[shart1780]

no doubt people will associate myself with posters such as this.

shart, it's your opinion, so be it.

but i shudder if people think this is where i'm coming from... if so then please re-read everything i've said again.

Huh... wait, do you think I was replying to you? I'm confused. I was replying to Axver.

 

[anitram]

Anitram,

I agree wth what you're saying, although I don't really see what you're getting at. Are you saying war is necessary sometimes but a tremendous amount of respect needs to be shown when it comes to war?

I am talking about people who are very strongly in favour of war (Iraq is just one example) who very coldly and detachedly discuss things like collateral damage. And say things like, "it is war and war is horrible." Well no shit, Sherlock. But if they truly understood the scope of the horror they would comment differently, believe me, because nobody I know who lived through something like that says things they do. Usually you can pick them out when they start talking about how people have been liberated. Well, I will ask you when your house is gone and your children have been blown up, and you no longer have a job or a best friend, what is your liberty worth?

 

[Zoomerang96]

You certainly seem incapable of recognising that despite Saddam's actions, he was nonetheless human and it is sad when any human's life is unnaturally cut short.

you seem incapable of recognizing that i can fully fucking well decide if and when i want to be "sad" when someone such as saddam dies.

it's funny, emotion is supposed to be removed from this equation by taking the high road and simply let bygones be bygones. this is all quite rich.

when some random bloke in tajikistan keels over and dies tomorrow or the day after, is that supposed to make me sad too? i mean honestly... are you for real?

i have my own life as well as those whom i know and care for to worry about. not the deaths of dictators who never once affected my life.

 

[Axver]

Zoomerang, like many of your posts, that one is just not worth the time it would take to respond. This is the last time I will direct any comments on this topic towards you (unless some sort of exceptional circumstance is somehow presented).

Have a good one.

 

[liamcool]

Rest in peace, Saddam. May you be in peace wherever you are.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yeah, let's torture criminals. That's a great punishment, officially endorsed by, guess who, Saddam Hussein himself!

I do not see why, in dispensing justice, we should lower ourselves to the level of the guilty party.

Both reversable forms of punishment, induced pain may be too much but robbing somebody of conciousness has the same effect as death only hopefully reversable.

 

[U2Man]

neither induced pain nor robbing of consciousness is in any way reversable.

 

[A_Wanderer]

So if the pain was stopped or and person woken up nothing at all changes? The pain was put out there for the hypothetical argument of proportional punishment; I was not arguing for it. But the idea of a punitive coma instead of execution has it's merits, same basic result but if the person turned out to be innocent then they could be brought out of it.

 

[U2Man]

there are profound psychological consequences of torture.

and if you rob a person of his consciousness for a long enough time, he will have to put a lot of effort into finding out what has happened in the world around him, not to mention getting his skills trained again.

 

[A_Wanderer]

In cases of capital punishment the objective is not rehabilitation it is the removal of the individual from society; now any system of justice is never going to be 100% so if you have the state killing people then there will be instances where innocent people will be murdered by the state - if instead they are put into a punitive coma then in the event they turn out to be innocent then it is more reversable than death. The same objective is acheived with at least some form of fail safe.

 

[U2Man]

but why put them in a coma? why not just behind bars?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Because it would be the ultimate deprivation of liberty - which is what the death penalty is.

 

[AchtungBono]

Good riddance to bad rubbish!!!

This is a GREAT new year's present to the free world and a great day for the Iraqi people who have suffered under this monster for so many years.

 

[U2Man]

you go on believing that the execution of saddam will make iraq and the free world a better and more save place.

 

[LJT]

Because it would be the ultimate deprivation of liberty - which is what the death penalty is.

If you put them into a coma, they really won't experience that deprivation of liberty though, would they? They would have the fear of it before hand and then nothing really at all afterwards....until they are woken up or never.

All sounds a bit like the movie Demolition Man to me.

 

[A_Wanderer]

It's less torturous than life in prison, it acheives the same ends as death and if managed properly could be cheaper; a strong case could be made.

 

[Dreadsox]

Saddam deserves the RIP. Period. He did not do it alone. He had people carry out orders. If every single person refused to carry them out, there would have been nobody to do his bidding. AGain, I sit here thinking about why he evolved into the person he became. Can you imagine what it would feel like to your soul to be him? Carry that around knowing the damage you have done to countless families.