Richard Land

[Klaus]

I've read a e-mail corespondance between Mr. Richard Land (President of the Ethic commision of the SBC) and Bishop Huber (german Protestant, profesor of Theology)

I was really shocked about his pro-violence Statements.
To me it looked like "Killing someone is bad if a person does it, but ok, if a country does it (as if a country isn't the sum of the people living inside)

Anyone here who wants to defend that guy or do we agree that he's a religious extremist trying to make politics?

Klaus

 

[HandMeDown]

I don't know anything at all about Richard Land. As a matter of fact, your post was the first time I've ever heard of him. But your question brings up something that I have pondered many times myself. How can somebody call themself a Christian and then advocate violence and death on any level at all?

I agree with you by the way. A country is the sum of the people living inside it.

 

[Klaus]

Dr. Richard D. Land is president and CEO of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention.
That's why it shoked me even more, how can someone be in a Ethics commission and abuse christianity for advocating something like that.

But luckily it seems like we all agree here that true Christians can't advocate violence or murder.

Klaus

 

[martha]

Are these the same Southern Baptists that think I should be subservient to my husband?

 

[BVS]

Where was that commandment; "Thou shall not kill unless told to by your country" I must have missed that one.

 

[80sU2isBest]

But luckily it seems like we all agree here that true Christians can't advocate violence or murder.
Klaus

From the guidelines for this forum...

"This is a general discussion area about U2 and their faith as found in their lyrics, their own words, as well as books written by others on this subject of their spirituality. Not to be used as a platform for debates on religion."

 

[HandMeDown]

I dont think it's a debate. It's several people questioning some aspects of what some very public figures are saying. And mods, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that ok here? I hope so, because thus far this conversation has been civil so I believe it should be allowed.

 

[Discoteque]

If this were a debate, perhaps FYM would be a more proper forum??

Personally, I really like Richard Land - he has a wonderful weekly call-in talk show on a local Christian station here in Dallas. I am SURE he is not advocating violence, as he is a very strong Christian. Can you post his email? I'd like to read it for myself.

And Martha, the whole "subservience" thing has gotten WAY out of whack. The word "subservient" was probably the closest English word that could be translated from the original Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, but "help mate" probably comes closer. God made a heirarchy for a reason, so that life, if it were lived by everyone according to Biblical principles, would go more smoothly. Men and women were created differently physically, emotionally, and physiologically to handle different life roles. They ARE different, it's a fact. It's just that some folks have taken the idea that they are equal to the "nth" degree. Women were made to give their husbands advice, respect, love and support, and men are commanded by God to "love their wives as Christ loved the church" (meaning the body of believers). That is a very important part of the equation that people seem to have a hard time remembering after they hear the term "subservient", but they go hand in hand. If we all were truly "equal," it would mean there would be too many cooks in the kitchen, which causes nothing but a big gooey mess.

IMO, I feel sorry for men in today's society. I think they are so confused, frustrated and angry about what it really means to BE a man today, especially in light of the feminist movement, that they don't even knwo HOW to be a real man any more. Their confusion in turn, washes over onto women, who in turn become equally frustrated and angry. Everybody's blaming everybody else. We were made differently to work together, to become ONE unit, as a partnership, with parts that fit together sort of like a puzzle. But if both partners are constantly in a struggle over who's the boss, it causes nothing but tension and frustration. Look at the way families are falling apart, the divorce rate is over 60% now, and because of that, society is going to hell in a handbasket, literally.

HTH.

 

[80sU2isBest]

I disagree. I think that statements like teh following are inviting debate:

"Anyone here who wants to defend that guy or do we agree that he's a religious extremist trying to make politics?"

and

"But luckily it seems like we all agree here that true Christians can't advocate violence or murder."

The fact is that this forum is for people to share spiritual ideas, but not to say things like this that could cause arguments. Many Christians on this forum don't condone violence, but many of us do condone violence when it comes to war, such as WW2, which was fought against an evil man. This all boils down to the fact that the Christians in this forum have very different political ideas, and to state that "true Christians can't advocate violence" is to say that those who differ from him on this issue aren't true Christians. And that seems like a pretty argumentative statement to me.

 

[martha]

So, this is the same guy and the same church, then?

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Disco, honey, i disagree with what you had to say about 100% but since it's off the topic, I'm going to not get into the issue.

I'm moving this to FYM in an effort to try to be fair to the intent of this forum. It's a bit of a fuzzy call, so if you feel upset about it please do contact me via PM or email.

-sula

 

[Scarletwine]

Martha,

Yes.

 

[HandMeDown]

actually, reading back through the thread I think you made a good call on this one Sula.

 

[verte76]

The whole "true Christian" thing is potentially really explosive because like '80's said, the Christians here have alot of disagreements about alot of issues, including wars. My church, the Catholic Church is not pacifist. St. Augustine came up with a "just war" argument that is still used by many Catholics although it's not binding on all Catholics, In other words we are not obligated to believe it. We have the option of being pacifists if we like. Some churches, like the Quakers and the Mennonites, are pacifist. For most I suspect it comes down to prayer and dialogue with God and not established orthodoxies or creeds.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I don't mean to bash anyone's religious beliefs, so please feel free to yell at me if anyone of what I'm saying seems out of order. Or else just ignore it. Anyway...

Women were made to give their husbands advice, respect, love and support, and men are commanded by God to "love their wives as Christ loved the church" (meaning the body of believers).

Is that the only purpose for which women were made? To help and support men? Are women not allowed to be independent?

IMO, I feel sorry for men in today's society. I think they are so confused, frustrated and angry about what it really means to BE a man today, especially in light of the feminist movement, that they don't even knwo HOW to be a real man any more. Their confusion in turn, washes over onto women, who in turn become equally frustrated and angry.

How exactly do you think the feminist movement has "confused" and "frustrated" men? By saying that women deserve the same rights, the same treatment, the same respect as men do? My goodness - how frustrating it must be for men to see women paid more than them! How confusing to see that women can do the same jobs as men and do them just as well! If that's the result of the feminist movement then I feel nothing but proud of it.

I'm not frustrated or angry about whether men know how to be "real men" (which is such a subjective term that I'm sure ever man in the world has a different idea of what being a "real man" means) the only thing which makes me frustrated and angry about this subject is that sexism and oppression of women still exists in this society.

But if both partners are constantly in a struggle over who's the boss, it causes nothing but tension and frustration. Look at the way families are falling apart, the divorce rate is over 60% now, and because of that, society is going to hell in a handbasket, literally.

Who says someone has to be boss. You were talking about partnership: why can't marriage be an equal partnership? You seem to be suggesting that women should just accept their husband is the boss and then suddenly families won't fall apart and divorce will decrease. Couldn't someone equally say men should just accept women are the boss? I'd like to see the response to that! Women are not subservient to men, we don't only exist to "support" our husbands: we are individuals in our own right, we are as intelligent as men and as capable as men, we do not exist merely to make men's life easier.

*Fizz.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

P.S. FYM does seem a better place for this now it's escalated into a debate.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Fizz. you pretty much summed up what I would have said.

 

[BVS]

Should we seperate this thread? It seems like we have two totally unrelated subjects going on here, both which are interesting.

 

[verte76]

Disco, I'm not sure I'd blame the divorce rate or other modern problems on feminism. I don't think giving women equal rights is bad for society. Why throw away half of the talent a society has by mandating, in one way or another, that all women get married and be subservient to their husbands? I mean, heck, it used to be perfectly OK for men to beat their wives. Now it's not. I personally have two divorced siblings. I can't tell you why they got divorced except that both relationships went to hell in a haybasket.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

to what verte said.

 

[pax]

I don't think we can split it and have both threads make sense.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

I don't think we can split it and have both threads make sense.

that was my thought too.

 

[Klaus]

80sU2isBest:

I'm sorry - i didn't want to offend anyone by posting this one in the "The Goal Is Soul" forum - i didn't read:

"This is a general discussion area about U2 and their faith as found in their lyrics, their own words, as well as books written by others on this subject of their spirituality. Not to be used as a platform for debates on religion."

I just thought it would fit in there after i read the other threads for quite some time.

Discoteque:
I asked the magazine for the english e-mails since i'm too lazy to translate all 4 pages to english and i couldn't find the english version on the web.

but here some freely translated parts:

The goal in the bible is not peace, it's justice. Jesus goal wasn't peace it was justice....
Then he said that "Matth?us 5, Vers 38 ff:" was only for individual humans, not for governments (so i assume a president is not human) And because of Mathew 5,38 we don't have the right to use force until we kill the other (but when we don't kill him it's ok to beat him up?)

And he used Romans, Chap 13 to justify.. no not only to justify murder by governments. He said that he "expects it from the country that they kill the ones who kill"

He was just talking in black and white, didn't accept any grey in this world. For me this is the view of a extremist.

So.. what i found out that not only in history, but also today christianity is abused (like Islam) by some people. They don't want to spread the "good news", they want to use the church to transport their prejudgements.
Or to say it with Bono's words:
"They want the kingdom, but they don't want god in it"

I feel sorry for men in today's society. I think they are so confused, frustrated and angry about what it really means to BE a man today

At least i'm neither confused nor frustrated. I'm happy to live in todays world..
..for example because a women who shares her life with me does it because she loves me, not because she has to (out of economical or social presure)

Read Romans 12,10:
Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves.

respect, love and support is not a oneway street - both sides should do this - because they love each other. A relationship (like described in the bible) is no fight about the role of a master and a servant.

FizzingWhizzbees: *lol* good answers

*irony on* you didn't know it yet? Women are on this world just to iron our shirts *irony off*

Klaus

p.s. sulawesigirl4: my reason not to post it into the FYM was that i didn't want to start a pro/anti war discussion in general (that's why i didn't quote what R.L. said about G.W.B.), but a thoghts based on the bible pro/contra killing. but anyway - the new direction of this thread is interesting too
p.p.s. i couldn't send you a pm because i'm no premium member, i can't send you an e-mail because i don't have your e-mail address, i can't receive e-mails because the admin here messed it up

 

[BVS]

You can find some articles written by Mr. Land on Belief.net. Most of them are political and IMO not that biblicly based. I didn't run across anything that wasn't too far from the normal Southern Baptist, not to say I don't think that the Southern Baptist aren't a little extreme.

I still stand by the belief that I don't think you can back up any act of war or violence with the teachings of Christianity.

And as far as the comments made on the equality of men and women. Men have decided to manipulate the word of God to fit their own fears of inferiority. It's done everyday.

My wife is much more talented and stronger than I am at many things in our marriage, and I don't think God wants me to make her sit back so I could attempt these things, when she could do a much better and efficient job than I can, just because I was born with testicles.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

Klaus, I know you weren't trying to be out of line, I just thought it might fit better in FYM. And I'd welcome an email from you. You can reach me at this address .

 

[anitram]

Women were made to give their husbands advice, respect, love and support, and men are commanded by God to "love their wives as Christ loved the church" (meaning the body of believers). That is a very important part of the equation that people seem to have a hard time remembering after they hear the term "subservient", but they go hand in hand.

I'm a woman and I don't believe I was made for that purpose at all. I admit I'm more than a little disturbed by the statement, but perhaps it is just me.

 

[80sU2isBest]

you can back up any act of war or violence with the teachings of Christianity.

Christ never spoke against war.

Sometimes war is necessary. We just might be under Nazi rule right now if several countries hadn't decided that war was justifiable.

 

[BVS]

Christ never spoke against war.

The subject of war is never addressed in the New Testament. But Christ does speak against violence and attacking in word and action. Matthew 5:39 Whosoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. This verse teaches to suffer an injustice rather than to demand our rights and perputrate a fight. Christ would want us to live unselfish lives, and not to seek to vindicate our own petty dignity, but return good for evil.

In the garden right before his trial he returned good for evil by healing the servant whose ear had been cut off by Peter's sword. He did not want violence to be inflicted in defending him.

Sometimes war is necessary. We just might be under Nazi rule right now if several countries hadn't decided that war was justifiable. [/B]

Now I agree with this. I'm not saying that the teachings of Christ are easy and by no means have I been able to turn the other cheek every time. But this is exactly why Christ could never be the head of a country. You can't mix the teachings of Christ with modern politics. All I'm saying is don't use the bible or religion to justify this or any war. War is not of God. War is of man.

 

[sue4u2]

Well said : Frizz - verte76 - BVSS - and anitram. Couldn't have said it better, or as well, myself.

 

[Klaus]

80sU2isBest:
The question is...
...if you trust in god, do you think that god could have brought down the Hitler regime without WW II?

And yes, i'm glad that the Russians, the Americans the French and the British fought against the Nazi regime. I don't now anyone who'd like the 3rd reich ruling the world.

But of course not every war was against someone like hitler and people love to compare every situation they don't like to the 3rd Reich. I even remember that a famous politican from the mid-east compared amnesty international to the hitlerjugend (the youth organisation of the 3rd reich which recuted the people for grown up institutions like the SS)

Klaus