Respect For Life

[pax]

(NOTE TO MY FELLOW FYM MODS: Here's a thread to keep you busy while I'm away! Have fun! Bwahahahahaha!!! )

For my fall break from school, I'm going to an area of the South Bronx in NYC to do some service projects. Our team and the other teams (who are going to Camden and Philadelphia to do similar work) attended a commissioning Mass on Sunday, and the priest gave his homily about "Respect for Life"--surely a familiar theme to many Catholics.

However, as many of you may be aware, I'm somewhat pro-choice. Or at least I was. I'm not the sort of person who is swayed by one not-bad sermon on one average Sunday. But while listening to his homily, I couldn't help but think about abortion and what it really means. And what a society that allows abortion is saying about the value of human life. I've always countered that argument by saying that the life of the mother is just as valuable and meaningful as the life of the fetus, and who are any of us to decide which life means *more*?

But I've gotten to thinking that perhaps abortion also devalues the life of the mother. It says, "You cannot raise this child. Society does not want it. You, and your baby, are useless." That disturbs me. I still don't know how I feel about it, because I am not insensitive to the stories of back-alley abortions (which do still happen--maybe not as much in the U.S., but elsewhere) and postnatal infanticide. And I still feel that Roe v. Wade was such a hard-fought battle, and a landmark for the struggle for women to govern their own bodies and lives.

So my pro-choice self is fighting with my pro-life self. My hardnosed political scientist is at war with my touchy-feely Buddhist-Christian ethicist. I've always been opposed to the death penalty, so I'm not going to get into that as much. But I'm interested in seeing what Interland has to say--not specifically about abortion, really, but about the whole idea of "Respect for Life" and what it entails.

I'm outtie. See you Sunday.

 

[diamond]

(NOTE TO MY FELLOW FYM MODS
It says, "You cannot raise this child. Society does not want it. You, and your baby, are useless." That disturbs me. I still don't know how I feel about it, because I am not insensitive to the stories of back-alley

I've always been opposed to the death penalty. See you Sunday.

Pax-

You hit it on the head here kiddo

When u have babies of your own..you may even more fully realize this




Death Penality-whole different issue.
The ppl sentence to death are not innocent like the babies.
The innocent should always live.
Ppl on death row usually are there by a consequence of their actions..
The babies are there by no action of their own and are innocent.
Let the innocent live.

Have a great trip

diamond

 

[nbcrusader]

Re: Re: Respect For Life

Pax-

You hit it on the head here kiddo

When u have babies of your own..you may even more fully realize this

Kids are only on loan from God - life that is truly precious.

 

[daisybean]

go ahead and flame me

yeah I know...I prolley get slammed for this one....

I feel that abortion would be wrong for me....it's not something I could ever bring myself to do. However, what is a good choice for me, may not a good choice for someone else, and I can't dictate the choices that another person has the liberty to make. I think everyone should have the freedom to make a well informed decision. Whether I agree with that decision or not is really irrelevant. While I wish that no woman would make the choice to have an abortion, some do, and at least in America they have for the most part the freedom to have it done in a clean and safe environment. I think what scares me the most if Roe v Wade is reversed is the number of "chop shops" that would arise, the number of illnesses and deaths that would occur due to unsafe and self inflicted abortions.

 

[Screaming Flower]

this is a great post pax. you've obviously been looking very hard at the WHOLE issue which is admirable. i'm pro-life because i believe life starts at conception. besides the fact that a heart beat and brain waves are evident early in a pregnancy, i feel human beings are endowed with a soul the moment they are created. because of this i feel that abortion, regardless of when performed, is murder. although i truly do sympathize with women in this situation, i cannot, in good conscience, agree with their actions. if it's considered a life when it's a planned pregnancy, it's a life every time. i feel we need to focus and spend more on education to instill some sort of responsibility in people and to hopefully prevent the unplanned pregnancy from happening. people need to have better access to birth control. there need to be programs and resources for women who do find themselves in this position so they know they have options besides abortion and so they don't have to face it by themselves. in college i was involved in a women's crisis pregnancy center and i feel these people truly do make a difference. although i will say the best goal is to prevent the pregnancies. i just don't feel we should play God and get to choose who lives and who dies. this (and many other reasons) is also is why i am against the death penalty. i agree that it's a different situation because the individuals involved are not innocent, but the way the system is set up has too many flaws to be reliable. as long as humans are making the decision regarding the death penalty, it will be fatally flawed because there is always room for error. and as long as it possible that an innocent person could mistakenly be executed, i cannot support it.

 

[oliveu2cm]

I agree with Screaming about a life being born from the moment of conception. Which is why I'm pro-life.

It's hard, b/c people say: 'what if a woman is raped'..etc. a situation I would never wish on anyone.. if I try to imagine myself in this situation, I think my soul would be very very sad. I'd pray a lot for guidance, and probably end up keeping the child, even if it was put up for adoption? Such a hard subject - esp. when you're not really threatened by its reality.

Another issue my friend and I were oddly enough discussing last night is "selective abortion", which comes into play after a woman has received in vitro fertilization, and has something like 5-8 children growing inside of her. This, first of all, is not normal for a human woman's body to support and produce that many babies at once. So what do you do- perform "selective abortion" so that you can give the best possible life to two or three children, or do you bear them all. I can't remember the family's name, but a few years ago a woman had eight children, and now some of them suffer from cerebral palsy to many other birth deficiencies. -->IMO, don't do the in vitro fertilization in the first place.

tough subject.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

But I've gotten to thinking that perhaps abortion also devalues the life of the mother. It says, "You cannot raise this child. Society does not want it. You, and your baby, are useless."

I don't think that abortions puts that stigma on a woman, I think that for the most part, if the woman is *aware* enough to know that she herseld cannot take care of a child, and that she cannot afford or have the resources to carry out a pregnancy and then put it up for adoption, she does not look at herself as useless, but is looking at the subject *realistically*. I cannot speak for all people of course, but in my workings with women going thru this situation, they have felt more of a stigma from society just thinking that she is a "bad person" all around for wanting an abortion, but not "if I get this done, I'm useless".

still don't know how I feel about it, because I am not insensitive to the stories of back-alley abortions (which do still happen--maybe not as much in the U.S., but elsewhere)

Unfortuneltly is does still happen a lot in the states due to the zillion varying laws on parental concent. In 30 of the states there are these laws which force a lot of young women into back-alley abortion type situations.

Now onto my opinion which is probaly not too appreciated-
I am pro-choice. For me it comes down to this:
I do not believe the gov't has a right to tell ANYONE what they can or cannot do with their own bodies. That is the underlying issue that a lot of people dismiss.
I also feel that it is not up to me to decide what is right for another person, I may not agree with someone's descison but I don't think that gives me the right to take that option away from them. It is already attrocious that there are so many parental consent laws on the books for young women, these cause so many problems, take all that with what would happen if Roe v. Wade was completley reversed and women were forced into dangerous situations again for trying to seek out abortions, and we would have just a horrible amount of deaths on our hands. Because as we all know, whether it's drugs, abortion, alchohol or whatever, even if it's illegal, people are going to do it.
I want the option to remain safe, legal, and available.
I also want to see more more more more family planning programs made available, and not attacked, education is the key to stopping unwanted pregnancies like screaming flower said, we have to have access to information, we have to educate about birth control, there needs to be more sex ed in schools, and just NOT hide things from our children the way we tend to do.

 

[Screaming Flower]

education is the key to stopping unwanted pregnancies like screaming flower said, we have to have access to information, we have to educate about birth control, there needs to be more sex ed in schools, and just NOT hide things from our children the way we tend to do.

my hope is that this point is something ALL sides can agree on. it's the only way to reduce the number of abortions, and is the best (or maybe i should say most realistic) fight against AIDS and STDs as well. we shouldn't be afraid to discuss these things. it's to everyone's benefit to educate.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

my hope is that this point is something ALL sides can agree on. it's the only way to reduce the number of abortions, and is the best (or maybe i should say most realistic) fight against AIDS and STDs as well. we shouldn't be afraid to discuss these things. it's to everyone's benefit to educate.

exactly.

 

[ouizy]

<----------pro choice.

<----------against fertility drugs

<----------believes fertility drugs cause a ton of harm including unwanted pregnancies (read above post about selective abortion.) I cannot fathom not being able to have a baby, but I truly cannot understand the greed behind taking fertility drugs so you can have your own baby with the possibility of becoming pregnant with like 33 babies (said with valley girl accent) and not being able to support them. I would have to say selective abortion is the most evil thing written so far as #1 you kill healthy *wanted* babies #2 the people taking these fertitlity drugs could have adopted in the first place.

I get very angry when I hear about communities and companies coming out and sending support (money, diapers, cars in some cases) to families who have had 6 babies after taking fertility drugs. If the people cannot support this many kids on their own, they should have no right taking those drugs.

I digress, I understand the pro-life stance, and although I do not agree with it, I think there is some relevance to the following analogy

Abortion:getting rid of unwanted children :: Fertility drugs:bringing in unwanted children.

Which is worse?

If you are going to limit one, you have to limit the other. I do pity those who cannot naturally conceve, however, I am against those who will do anything to conceve including bringing unwanted, unplanned, and unexpected children into the mix to be supported by others.

Do not even get me started on the death penalty.

Referring to the title of this thread, respect for life, there are many who believe life should be respected no matter what *unconditionally* and many of those who believe this have very high conviction. There are also others who have no respect for life and are clearly evil, however there are many of us in between in the gray area who believe that we live in a modern world, are not all that religious, who beleive that we have to live our lives in a way in which we can keep control over own race as there may not be a higher power to do so.

We all have to be open-minded here and understand this...

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

the fertility drug thang -
meant to touch on that, and forgot...I don't understand WHY people do that to themselves...it's just utterly ridiculous to me, having a child shouldn't be about "oh we screwed and look what we got in return, isn't the baby that we made so great" It's about loving another person, wanting to take care of that person, if people want a child so bad ADOPT!!
There's a novel idea...
Take those thousands of dollars you'd spend on fertility and put it towards a child who really needs and wants your love and who is already here.
arrg....that whole thing really frustrates me

 

[STING2]

The key is not what a women can do with her own body, but when does the life of the unborn become human life. After all, a fetus's or unborn baby's body is not the womens body. It may reside in her body, but it is not her's. So the question is does the unborn have the same rights that all baby's outside the womens body do.

Looking at some interesting situations in the law, it appears that the unborn do have the rights of those that have been born. For instance another person can be convicted of manslaughter or murder if their actions result in the death of a womens unborn baby. The only way that can be legal is if the unborn are considered to have the same rights as those that have been born.

It is a complicated issue, but it rest on whether the unborn are human and have the rights of the born, and not on "its my choice" or "its my body". Clearly at any stage that the unborn are defined as being human, abortion at that point and beyond would be murder except in extreme circumstances.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

A lot of those laws regarding unborn children were pushed by pro-life backers so that they could be used to say that an unborn child has the same rights as a human.
That I don't agree with.

And I was stating that a large issue with many pro-choice supporters is about the gov't having control over one's own free will to decide what to do with their own body, it may not be what the pro-life people are concerned about, but it is a large concern to many.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

<----------pro choice.

<----------against fertility drugs



Abortion:getting rid of unwanted children :: Fertility drugs:bringing in unwanted children.

Which is worse?

If you are going to limit one, you have to limit the other.

But aren't you saying you are in favor of limiting one (fertility drugs), but not the other (abortion)?

 

[RavenStar]

Re: go ahead and flame me

yeah I know...I prolley get slammed for this one....

I feel that abortion would be wrong for me....it's not something I could ever bring myself to do. However, what is a good choice for me, may not a good choice for someone else, and I can't dictate the choices that another person has the liberty to make. I think everyone should have the freedom to make a well informed decision. Whether I agree with that decision or not is really irrelevant. While I wish that no woman would make the choice to have an abortion, some do, and at least in America they have for the most part the freedom to have it done in a clean and safe environment. I think what scares me the most if Roe v Wade is reversed is the number of "chop shops" that would arise, the number of illnesses and deaths that would occur due to unsafe and self inflicted abortions.

I agree so much with you. I love (thats right, love) the fact that people have to CHOICE of abortion. I dont think I could ever have an abortion myself but thats me, not someone else.

 

[nbcrusader]

<----------against fertility drugs

Knowing some couples that currently struggle/have struggled to have a child, I understand the unique pain and suffering they live through. You really can?t fully appreciate this feeling until you try having children.

I get very angry when I hear about communities and companies coming out and sending support (money, diapers, cars in some cases) to families who have had 6 babies after taking fertility drugs. If the people cannot support this many kids on their own, they should have no right taking those drugs.

Careful. Most use of fertility drugs do not result in multiple births. While the drugs can cause multiple eggs to be produced at once, multiple fertilization is rare. You?d be surprised by how many people use fertility drugs at one point or another.

Abortion:getting rid of unwanted children :: Fertility drugs:bringing in unwanted children.

Sorry, I don't think this analogy carries. I doubt people go through the unpleasant fertility process for the sake of unwanted children.

If you are going to limit one, you have to limit the other. I do pity those who cannot naturally conceve, however, I am against those who will do anything to conceve including bringing unwanted, unplanned, and unexpected children into the mix to be supported by others.

I agree with you to the point that people will go through the fertility process to add another possession to their household. I can just see it: house, car, yacht, progeny to inherit my fortune?

Referring to the title of this thread, respect for life, there are many who believe life should be respected no matter what *unconditionally* and many of those who believe this have very high conviction. There are also others who have no respect for life and are clearly evil, however there are many of us in between in the gray area who believe that we live in a modern world, are not all that religious, who beleive that we have to live our lives in a way in which we can keep control over own race as there may not be a higher power to do so.

We all have to be open-minded here and understand this...

Well, I think this opens a discussion of Relavitism, which is beyond the scope of this thread.

Peace.

PS - Ouisy - love the hat!

 

[nbcrusader]

It is a complicated issue, but it rest on whether the unborn are human and have the rights of the born, and not on "its my choice" or "its my body". Clearly at any stage that the unborn are defined as being human, abortion at that point and beyond would be murder except in extreme circumstances.

The principle of ?choice? is one that is inconsistently applied in our society. Choice in association, hiring, firing, housing, economics, schools, etc. are all controlled by an overriding public policy. Public policy recognized that there are bad choices and people should not have the freedom to make those choices.

 

[oliveu2cm]

A lot of those laws regarding unborn children were pushed by pro-life backers so that they could be used to say that an unborn child has the same rights as a human.
That I don't agree with.

And I was stating that a large issue with many pro-choice supporters is about the gov't having control over one's own free will to decide what to do with their own body, it may not be what the pro-life people are concerned about, but it is a large concern to many.

Like Screaming said earlier, at the moment of conception brain waves and heart beat are evident. This means life. I also agree about the soul being created at the moment of conception. Therefore, the unborn baby should be protected by the law, in the same way people who cannot fend/provide for themselves are protected by the law (the mentally retarded, for example).

I know the woman should be able to choose what's right for her body- but what about the child? Who will protect/fight for his or her life?

 

[STING2]

One can never say that have the right to do with their body what they want if their actions with that body result in the unlawful death of another individual. Again, the whole "its my body" "my choice" is not the issue. The question is if and when do the unborn become individuals.

Laws in regards to the death of the unborn that happen from outside forces whether it be by accident or on purpose, have been in existence long before the whole Roe vs Wade decision. Anyone in the Pro-life camp which represents more than 1/3 of the population of the United States make a valid point in siting the inconsistency in the law, which allows for the prosecution of individuals found to be at fault for the death of a womens unborn baby and our prosecuted on the ground that the unborn is human, but claims the unborn is not human in regards to the abortion issue. The Pro-life camp has a very interesting point on this. I've not seen anyone in the Pro-Choice camp be able to resolve this inconsistancy.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

OK, my main beef with the whole "when does life begin" is that it is still not a proven or scientific fact of when that is, it leaves a lot of room open to interpretation. Including the question of "soul" and what that means to different people etc.

There is a question of what is life, and what is human life, what is it that we consider human, and based on that, at what point in a pregnancy does this happed or not happen to a fetus, and on and on and on and on...

As for the un-born baby/murder laws, I don't know any pro-choicers who think that there should even be a law on the books regarding that, and of course, again, I can't speak for *all* pro-choice ppl but in my area of knowledge, that's not an issue.
So I can't offer any thoughts on that for you other than I don't think it should be treated as murder.

 

[Screaming Flower]

random facts.

? Day 1 ? fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins

? Day 6 ? embryo begins implanting in the uterus

? Day 22 ? heart begins to beat with the child?s own blood, often a different type than the mother?s

? Week 5 ? eyes, legs, hands begin to develop

? Week 6 ? brain waves detectable; mouth, lips present; fingernails forming

? Week 7 ? eyelids, toes form; nose distinct, baby kicking and swimming

? Week 8 ? every organ in place; bones begin to replace cartilage, fingerprints begin to form;

? Weeks 9 and 10 - teeth begin to form, fingernails develop; baby can turn head, frown

? Week 11 ? baby can grasp objects placed in hand; all organ systems functioning; the baby has fingerprints, a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation

? Week 12 ? the baby has all of the part necessary to experience pain, including the nerves, spinal cord and thalamus; the baby is nearing the end of the first trimester

? Week 17 - baby can have dream (REM) sleep

? Week 20 ? the earliest stage at which partial birth abortions are performed

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

But chromosomes, heartbeats, bones, limbs etc. aren't exclusively human and I don't consider the forming of chromosomes to be a defining element of humans. It may be a form of life but not a human being

To me, a human being is not about chromosomes, bones, parts etc. Those things are not exclusively human and to me do not constitute a reason to be counted as a human being.

That is what I mean by the interpretations of it, and that fact that scientists still argue about it is very telling.

(I don't have my medical books and research stuff with me at the moment and whenever I try to look for stats online I get a bunch of pro-life sites that are obviously going to be biased on the facts and I wanted to present some un-biased thoughts on this, but alas, for now I can't find any )

 

[Screaming Flower]

i'm not sure how one can be biased in regards to facts but anyway...

i agree that scientists are still trying to determine some sor tof definition of life, but something i find interesting is that if someone is in the hospital, in a coma, brain waves are what they use to declare someone dead or alive.

 

[nbcrusader]

Some may say that life begins when the kids move out of the house. But that may be a different issue.

Thank you for the timeline Screaming Flower ? it is hard to pick which stage life suddenly springs forth after conception.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

I mean biased in regards to them only posting pro-life scientists findings and not any other research.

And we can also take the discussion to another level by debating what is death and what is considered death lol
It's a big circle of questions and ideas.

If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?

 

[Screaming Flower]

If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?

because they're brain dead. at least that's my guess.

you're right though. we're talking about things that are not consistently defined so this could go on forever.

i have to say that considering the subject matter this thread is going amazingly well.

 

[nbcrusader]

If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?

In a nutshell, the person was dying and technology extended the life. Pulling the plug removes technology.

 

[oliveu2cm]

Higher Than Science

That is what I mean by the interpretations of it, and that fact that scientists still argue about it is very telling.

Scientists can't agree on many things- like how the earth itself was created, how our brains work (funny that the neurons in our brains are connected by 'synapses,' which means "gaps") or even how wildlife from the artic & the mediterranean can coexist in the burren in Ireland.

This issue, like some of those, I think needs more than science to explain.

 

[STING2]

I had a philosophy professor that drew the line at where the unborn baby could begin to feel pain. Clearly once an unborn baby or even an animal can feel pain, one had better have an important justification to justify their infliction of pain on that entity.

Clearly I don't believe this is something that should be left to just anyone's interpertation. I don't think there is anyone who would want to condone infanticide or child abuse. I happy the Government does intervene to prevent these crimes, and those that commit them will often site reasons such as, "this is the way we discipline our childern, and its our childern, and no one has a right to interfere in how we raise our childern." The law today disagree's with such assertions. 150 years ago, the majority of the USA population believed that African Americans were sub-human and did not have the same rights as European Americans. They used their "difference of opinion" to justify their continued enslavement of African Americans. Now look at how people look at this issue today.

How will people look at the issue of Abortion hundreds or thousands of years from now when it may be possible for the unborn baby to grow and develop(even soon after conception) in an artificial womb outside of the mother? Very hypothetical I know.

 

[Sparkysgrrrl]

One idea put forth by Carl Sagan I never hear anyone discuss-

He suggested that one factor that makes us uniquely human is the ability to think, which would mean that we become persons when the cerebral cortex is in place which starts around the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy -- the sixth month.

Scientists can't agree on many things- like how the earth itself was created, how our brains work (funny that the neurons in our brains are connected by 'synapses,' which means "gaps") or even how wildlife from the artic & the mediterranean can coexist in the burren in Ireland.

This issue, like some of those, I think needs more than science to explain.

True, but should we use religious/spiritual beliefs to legislate law?