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Old 10-12-2002, 12:42 PM   #61
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You know, we're trying to have a discussion here and you are just trying to provoke people into a rage.
Things like that do not make anyone's cause look better or worse, they just make the people using those tactics look like cowards for not addressing the issues.
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Old 10-12-2002, 01:15 PM   #62
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I'm not trying to provoke anyone. I'm just giving a little insight into reality without all the sugar-coating. I feel it is my responsibility to share this image, and I feel that it is the responsibility of anyone who wants to form any kind of opinion on this subject to become acquainted with the harsh ugly truth.

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Old 10-12-2002, 01:29 PM   #63
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I feel that it is the responsibility of anyone who wants to form any kind of opinion on this subject to become acquainted with the harsh ugly truth.
Truth? Since when has society ever been interested in the truth?

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Old 10-12-2002, 01:40 PM   #64
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As for Christianity claiming to be moral and ethical, it forfeited that reality centuries ago. As idealistic as I am, organized Christianity has been nothing but a reactionary hate movement, more concerned with power, greed, and control than actually being concerned with truth. It has been no wonder that Christianity has often been ardent supporters of fascist dictators and, prior to that, autocratic monarchies. Or the fact that many pay lip-service to American democracy, preferring, rather, a pseudo-democratic theocracy. And, yet, these are the "true patriots"?

Human rights? What human rights? Sure, so they are pro-life; but where is their concern for these fetuses once they are born? For this being such a "Christian" nation, a full 1/3 (33%) of America doesn't have health insurance. So much for corporal works of mercy! Or when I hear such "Christian" men like William Bennett hold a Bible in one hand and proclaim the wonders of war against Afghanistan in the other. Enough is enough, frankly. I've had enough with fanaticism of all kinds. Let the Christian and Islamic fundamentalists have each other...they deserve each other.

Pro-life? No, just anti-abortion for the most part, as the death penalty is a wonderful thing. Do tell...how many of you here who are "pro-life" support the death penalty? I'll be waiting with bells on...

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Old 10-12-2002, 01:57 PM   #65
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I consider myself to be pro-life, but only for the same reason a lot of people are pro-choice. I don't see the human fetus as a person. I see it as an innocent, uncorrupted life that deserves a chance at living. I think all life is sacred and wonderful, except people. People are horrible horrible creatures that need to go away. They're stupid. They're self-righteous and self-serving. They're completely useless. The fewer people out there, the better.

But, NGL, how can a human not be a person?

Personhood is a social construct. Humans are socialized into people. Once that happens, they are worthless bags of bone and water, and their only purposes are to get big so they can fertilize more plants and feed more worms.

So why are you pro-life?

Because I don't see human fetuses as people. They're innocent life forms, and, while they have potential to be bad things, they still deserve a chance at redemption.

I believe all life to be sacred and wonderful, and I believe all things have an inherant right to live until they grow up and forfeit it.
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Old 10-12-2002, 04:01 PM   #66
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As for Christianity claiming to be moral and ethical, it forfeited that reality centuries ago. As idealistic as I am, organized Christianity has been nothing but a reactionary hate movement, more concerned with power, greed, and control than actually being concerned with truth. It has been no wonder that Christianity has often been ardent supporters of fascist dictators and, prior to that, autocratic monarchies. Or the fact that many pay lip-service to American democracy, preferring, rather, a pseudo-democratic theocracy. And, yet, these are the "true patriots"?
Interesting paragraph. Some I agree with some I do not. I think where we differ is that you cannot hold todays Christian accountable for things that happened centuries ago. However, I would also agree that in many cases "Organized Christianity" has become more like the pharisees that Christ was threatening before he was put to death. The "truth" is out there somewhere, however, I question if it is inside the walls of the "church" buildings so to speak.


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Human rights? What human rights? Sure, so they are pro-life; but where is their concern for these fetuses once they are born? For this being such a "Christian" nation, a full 1/3 (33%) of America doesn't have health insurance. So much for corporal works of mercy! Or when I hear such "Christian" men like William Bennett hold a Bible in one hand and proclaim the wonders of war against Afghanistan in the other. Enough is enough, frankly. I've had enough with fanaticism of all kinds. Let the Christian and Islamic fundamentalists have each other...they deserve each other. [/B]

Fanatacism is truly the root of many of the worlds problems. I have mentioned it before and I will say it again, there is a historical theme surrounding fanaticism. Mankind misses the picture again and again.

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Pro-life? No, just anti-abortion for the most part, as the death penalty is a wonderful thing. Do tell...how many of you here who are "pro-life" support the death penalty? I'll be waiting with bells on...
Melon [/B]
Here we disagree. To equate the "innocent" fetus with that of a grown adult with "free will" to do good an evil is not a fair comparison. Unless you know of a fetus killing others ect.


Good post as always Melon.


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Old 10-12-2002, 04:13 PM   #67
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I feel very uncomfortable with asserting some type of moral superiority.

Would I have an abortion? Probably not.

Do I want to tell other women what to do? Definitely not.
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Old 10-12-2002, 04:58 PM   #68
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Here we disagree. To equate the "innocent" fetus with that of a grown adult with "free will" to do good an evil is not a fair comparison. Unless you know of a fetus killing others ect.
They are *both* acts of free will; whether one chooses to kill their unborn child or whether the state chooses to kill prisoners. Christianity often speaks of being like Jesus, but do we really know what that entails? Look at Jesus Himself...turns the other cheek so much that he ends up crucified. Considering our vengeful nature, I think we're a far ways away from that.

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Old 10-12-2002, 05:19 PM   #69
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Originally posted by melon
Pro-life? No, just anti-abortion for the most part, as the death penalty is a wonderful thing. Do tell...how many of you here who are "pro-life" support the death penalty? I'll be waiting with bells on...
you really shouldn't generalize on that one melon. the majority of pro life people i know are also anti death penalty. in my experience, the people who are pro-life are also very involved in others causes of social justice - particularly those against the death penalty. i feel the media does a very one-sided job in portraying pro-life people. they often show the loud-mouthed, ignorant zealots who attack abortion clinics, doctors or patients. they act like they are a soldier of God or something. i am vehemently opposed to anyone who declares themselves pro-life and then uses violence or intimidation tactics. although i truly believe these people are in the minority.

plenty of christians DO care for individuals at all stages of life, not just the unborn children. there are millions of christians in the world who AREN'T fundamentalist. i'm kind of offended by your post.
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Old 10-12-2002, 05:57 PM   #70
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you really shouldn't generalize on that one melon. the majority of pro life people i know are also anti death penalty. in my experience, the people who are pro-life are also very involved in others causes of social justice - particularly those against the death penalty. i feel the media does a very one-sided job in portraying pro-life people. they often show the loud-mouthed, ignorant zealots who attack abortion clinics, doctors or patients. they act like they are a soldier of God or something. i am vehemently opposed to anyone who declares themselves pro-life and then uses violence or intimidation tactics. although i truly believe these people are in the minority.
You are, indeed, correct on this one, but there are enough of this "minority" that it cannot be ignored.

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plenty of christians DO care for individuals at all stages of life, not just the unborn children. there are millions of christians in the world who AREN'T fundamentalist. i'm kind of offended by your post.
You need not be. I'm just a highly angered liberal Christian myself. I guess you can only take so much abuse, though, before you start biting the hand that you thought was feeding you, but was really just making you sick...

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Old 10-12-2002, 08:57 PM   #71
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i understand your frustration melon, and we appear to be on the same page for the most part. sorry if i overreacted.
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Old 10-12-2002, 09:22 PM   #72
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Originally posted by melon


They are *both* acts of free will; whether one chooses to kill their unborn child or whether the state chooses to kill prisoners. Christianity often speaks of being like Jesus, but do we really know what that entails? Look at Jesus Himself...turns the other cheek so much that he ends up crucified. Considering our vengeful nature, I think we're a far ways away from that.

Melon
OK...from this perspective I can understand your analogy....do you understand my point?

One is killed for no reason at all. The other, is an administration of justice.


Did Jesus turn the other cheek so much that he was killed? Or did the Messiah hold back because the will of God was that he should be sacraficed. In either case, he submitted to the justice handed down by the courts.
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Old 10-13-2002, 08:54 AM   #73
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I consider myself to be pro-life, but only for the same reason a lot of people are pro-choice. I don't see the human fetus as a person. I see it as an innocent, uncorrupted life that deserves a chance at living. I think all life is sacred and wonderful, except people. People are horrible horrible creatures that need to go away. They're stupid. They're self-righteous and self-serving. They're completely useless. The fewer people out there, the better.

But, NGL, how can a human not be a person?

Personhood is a social construct. Humans are socialized into people. Once that happens, they are worthless bags of bone and water, and their only purposes are to get big so they can fertilize more plants and feed more worms.

So why are you pro-life?

Because I don't see human fetuses as people. They're innocent life forms, and, while they have potential to be bad things, they still deserve a chance at redemption.
May I ask what that "redemption" actually implies? If you see people as horrible creatures, how do the human fetuses stand a chance of not turning into them when they're born into a society?

And won't a human still grow into a big worthless bag of bone and water whether he/she is socialized or not?
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Old 10-14-2002, 12:00 AM   #74
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I'm home now...kind of.

I'm really impressed with what I've seen in this thread. I'll have to tell you all about what I saw in the South Bronx and some new insights I now have on the subject.

However, right now, it is well past my bedtime. Nighty-night.
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Old 10-14-2002, 12:49 AM   #75
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this thread makes me sad...



ive shared a personal story about this about two years ago, here and i dont feel like posting it now.

people try and think this through and try and convince themselves that what they are doing is fine and for the better. fucking bullshit. i hope their mind eats away at their skull.

and those that say we cant tell someone what to do, ok, fine, but this isnt some ho hum issue.

no other issue hurts me more.
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Old 10-14-2002, 09:01 AM   #76
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and those that say we cant tell someone what to do, ok, fine, but this isnt some ho hum issue.

This is what bothers me the most about this topic. It's filed under "women's rights." I definitely consider myself a feminist. I'd do anything I could and would love to one day have a job where I can help make this world a better place for women, and for the men who don't deserve to be the brunt of hatred for other men's crimes.

That said, the reason I don't like that this is filed under "women's rights" is because as a woman I feel we have a higher responsibility when we have a child, and we have to sacrifice our rights to others. YES, it's unfair that we have to have the child inside of us for 9 months and give birth to it, and the men do not- but that is a risk we accept when we have sex (just like men have to accept the risk that their partner may not feel the same way about children as he does). Yes we may not want the pain, the trouble, the shame, the hassle, the burden.. but we should be teaching people how to take responsiblity for their actions.

It's not just women who are affected in this issue. What about the father? It's his child too. Of course, like I said before, what about the child who deserves the right to live. This is human rights, not just women's rights.
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Old 10-14-2002, 11:44 AM   #77
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Originally posted by melon
As for Christianity claiming to be moral and ethical, it forfeited that reality centuries ago. As idealistic as I am, organized Christianity has been nothing but a reactionary hate movement, more concerned with power, greed, and control than actually being concerned with truth.
I am quite troubled with these statements. I hope they are not driven by hurtful personal experience.

Yesterday’s worship service of “sinners anonymous” was notably void of hatred, power greed or desire for control. Instead we examined Galatians 3:1-14, what I would call a concern for truth.

Which leads to a basic question, what is your source of truth?

You are in my prayers brother Melon.
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Old 10-14-2002, 02:24 PM   #78
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I agree Zoomerang96, this issue makes me very sad to.
Obviously we have different reasons for this, but it can make anyone sad to think about, not just pro-lifers.

Not everyone "has to think this through and convince themselves" of anything. It's legal, and to those who choose to get an abortion, it's their decision. Not everyone who gets an abortion is haunted with regret or guilt or whatever bad feelings people like to assume go with it.

And I would also agree that it's not just a "woman's issue" it is indeed a human rights issue, but again we see things differently.

It is a legal activity.
Keeping it legal, keeps it safe.
I think the parental consent laws need to be removed.
Having them negates the purposed of keeping it legal and safe for ALL of child bearing age, not just some.
I've seen what happens to girls who can't tell their parents what happened and seek back alley abortions.
I've seen what happens when a woman is raped, wants to terminate the pregnancy only to be killed by the "father"
I've seen what happens when a girl gets nearly beaten to death by her mother for getting "knocked up" and wanting to "kill the baby".
None of these things are pretty, and none of these things should have to happen.
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Old 10-14-2002, 02:35 PM   #79
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Yes, let's keep it legal. Matter of fact, let's legalize killing anyone who's an inconvenience to us. That keeps it safer.
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Old 10-14-2002, 02:39 PM   #80
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to you it's killing, it isn't killing to everyone, you're not seeing it other than thru your own beliefs.
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