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#41 | |
Blue Crack Addict
Join Date: Aug 2002
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God’s Word already shapes our laws and has done so for thousands of years. And we have done this in the US without establishing a state religion. |
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#42 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB Join Date: Jun 2001
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If you don't then you're saying "there is no God" and if there is no God then anyone can do whatever the heck they want, kill or not kill, they can act nice but there is no reason to, they may feel they have a moral obligation to follow the laws but they really don't if there is no God. If there is no God then none of this even matters, and everything can be legalized. (Of course not everything is legalized- like nbcrusader says, God has shaped our laws without the US ever establishing a state religion.) It comes down to this fact: You can't prove anything besides the thoughts in your head. Are you hooked up to a computer, or is your world some kid's science project, or did another higher being create the world we live in? The true answer to this question will reveal the answer to if abortion is okay or not. |
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#43 |
War Child
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: under the table and screaming
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It is scientifically proven lol
Read up on it, it's not a theory that our brains have different functions and parts than any other being on this planet, it's quite fascinating. (not saying that I believe that thinking is what should define human's as beings, just bringing in that idea, BUT the ability to think for ourselves in terms other than basic "food, shelter, warmth" is what seperates us from other life forms on this earth) This can turn into a whole other debate about science, mabey I'll make a thread on that sometime (when I've got my books and not just my scattered brain ![]() But I don't understand what you are saying, claiming that nothing is scientifically proven is quite a bold statement. nbcrusader - I do believe that faith is someones own personal thoughts, convictions, what have you and that everyone is free to choose whatever religion that the feel closest to (or to not choose one at all) To use as the basis for a law "I'm so-and-so religion and I believe this, therefore it is the only truth" is what I'm saying is wrong. |
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#44 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Jan 2001
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...I for one disagree... ![]() |
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#45 | ||
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB Join Date: Jun 2001
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You can't see anything, since what you see is just an image reflected in your eye. the same correlations can be drawn between all the senses- and basically it can be whittled down to the fact that you cannot prove anything except yourself exists (sayin "I see it, it must exist" is not enough since we are not actually SEEING a tree-for example- but an image of that tree that has been reflected in our eyes). If you follow me, you see how science is a leap of faith too. obviously you can't walk around assuming no one else exists or that you can't see anything- we operate under basic laws that we assume to be true (that other people are alive, not stimulated inside my brain). but you can't PROVE someone else exists. Amazing isn't it? ... ![]() ![]() |
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#46 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#47 | |
Blue Crack Addict
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The fact there is evil in the world, even evil done in the name of a religion, is more a reflection of our fallen state than the existence of a Holy God. |
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#48 |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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agreed
I was a bit perplexed by that as well... |
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#49 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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Sorry about the confusion. Thanks for clearing that up nbcrusader. I should have explained I meant accountability. |
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#50 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Also, how can you say that there is no moral obligation to follow laws without God? What if someone based their ethical system around the law? I'll concede that religion has shaped many of our laws, but a belief in God isn't necessary for belief in the law. It's possible to hold that adherence to the the law is the best thing for society without believing that the law itself has any higher moral implications. I'd like to say that I actually do believe in God. But I don't think that someone has to believe in God to be a moral and ethical person. |
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#51 | |
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As far as the "CHOICE" thing goes, I have a HUGE problem with the word CHOICE being used to sugar-coat what is actually the rather brutal killing of a living thing. But it always comes down to the old 'but everyone should have a choice' thing because 'choice' is really the only leg abortion supporters have to stand on, because abortion really is the murder of a child and there is nothing else they can do to try to rationalize it as a 'right.' I also have a problem that under the law a woman can 'choose' to have her child's life ended for her own convenience, yet the law also tells me I must put a seat belt on my body or I am in violation of the law. To me that is a sick travesty of justice. I do believe people have a choice of what to do with their own bodies, and I disagree with some I have seen, like say tongue piercings, but okay that is a choice and I accept that. THAT is the kind of situation where I would say, so that choice is wrong for me, but someone else should not be denied that choice. But not when another life is involved. I just can't see any justification for the killing of an unborn child. EVERY life is precious, because it's the only thing that can never be replaced. |
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#52 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#53 | |
Blue Crack Addict
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#54 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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I've heard many people talk about the preciosness of every life, the respect for life, and it's interesting that the "life" in question is almost always a human or at least an animal one. I mean, every cockroach or ant is a unique living organism that will never be exactly replicated again, and it certainly has a life inside it just as any other animal does, as do all the less complex organisms and plants. |
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#55 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#56 | |
Blue Crack Addict
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The Inquisition was driven largely by the political ambitions of the Spanish church, twisting Scripture to suit their own needs. To say “of course they believed that their actions were justified in the eyes of God” does not hold water. Your example, however, shows one of the greatest evils – misuse of Scripture to further human ambitions. |
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#57 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
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#58 |
Jesus Online
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What a fascinating debate this is. As a mod, obnoxious as this may sound, thanks to all for contributing to a well discussed and civilised debate. It is much appreciated.
My own thoughts on this are fairly scattered. Where to start...lol. To me, where life begins is interesting. I dont believe there is an actual start time. We begin as a seperate egg and seperate sperm, once they meet, it is all a process of development. It takes a few weeks for the individual cells to take any form and resemble a fetus. But the fact that it becomes such a form at a specific point in time is moot to me. We are right from the start, a collection of cells and remain that until the day we die. I guess science has already argued that it becomes a human when it has a human form. I dont agree or disagree. I just see the whole thing as a process. An abortion (to me) at 6 weeks is no more or less morally right as it is at 20 weeks. That collection of cells just has more form and recognisable human characteristics. The law due to many variants, needs a boundary. Here, at the most extreme, no medical abortion is allowed past week 24 of the pregnancy. That is to allow for factors that may show chromosomal defects in the nuchal translucency scan. 22 weeks if anyone is interested, is the general cut off date, but if further tests show such severe abnormalities to warrant it, it can be extended to 24 weeks. Mostly to give a larger window of time for the parent/s to make such a choice. It is the 22-24 week mark where a fetus is also legally recognised as a human and needs due birth and death certificates registered if applicable. But like I said, I see that as more a legal aspect than anything else. As for a soul, if we do indeed have one, which I prefer to think we do, the age of the developing fetus is moot, again just my opinion. Once those cells start their process of development, we are on our journey to becoming full developed human beings - ie we have that thing called 'soul'. I am a bit puzzled by the reactions of some that fertility drugs are not a good thing too. Granted, under any IVF or fertility treatment the chance of a multiple birth is increased, but it is not common for more than twins, or in rarer cases, triplets or quads/quins etc. I can understand that the outcome of these treatments may be deemed a problem where a multiple birth is the result, but the aim behind them is a result of brilliant medical advancements. Where a multiple conception does occur from them, and by some freak of luck more than 1 child is conceived, a medical abortion has to be carried out if the numbers of fertilised eggs is particularly high. The human body is not designed for multiple births at all. Even twins under natural circumstances are rare and any more, whether it be from fertility or intercourse, puts a massive strain on the body and chances are, some will be naturally aborted if we are talking large numbers of eggs. The resulting abortions from these are simply a case of doing what nature will do itself before complications arise. Doctors will always put the health of the mother first, as she is the one with the best chance of survival in most of these cases. The medical world in regard to conception is all about statistics. The odds of extreme numbers of eggs from these treatments is not so common that it is advised against. As for rights, there are the rights of up to 3 individuals to consider. If we want to argue those of the unborn infant, I dont think we can write off those of the mother or even the father. As for which is the most important factor in deciding whether an abortion is morally acceptable, I dont know myself which is the 'most right' to base a decision on.
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#59 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB Join Date: Jun 2001
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Let's say: FACT. There is no god. If that is a FACT, then there is NO reason to be moral. If you choose to be moral then all the more for you. But if there is no God, there is NO higher reason to be moral other than you want to. |
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#60 | |
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB Join Date: Jun 2001
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(sidebar: I'll be out for the weekend, look forward to reading/responding more when i get back) |
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