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Old 10-10-2002, 04:15 PM   #21
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random facts.

• Day 1 – fertilization: all human chromosomes are present; unique human life begins

• Day 6 – embryo begins implanting in the uterus

• Day 22 – heart begins to beat with the child’s own blood, often a different type than the mother’s

• Week 5 – eyes, legs, hands begin to develop

• Week 6 – brain waves detectable; mouth, lips present; fingernails forming

• Week 7 – eyelids, toes form; nose distinct, baby kicking and swimming

• Week 8 – every organ in place; bones begin to replace cartilage, fingerprints begin to form;

• Weeks 9 and 10 - teeth begin to form, fingernails develop; baby can turn head, frown

• Week 11 – baby can grasp objects placed in hand; all organ systems functioning; the baby has fingerprints, a skeletal structure, nerves, and circulation

• Week 12 – the baby has all of the part necessary to experience pain, including the nerves, spinal cord and thalamus; the baby is nearing the end of the first trimester

• Week 17 - baby can have dream (REM) sleep

• Week 20 – the earliest stage at which partial birth abortions are performed
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:34 PM   #22
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But chromosomes, heartbeats, bones, limbs etc. aren't exclusively human and I don't consider the forming of chromosomes to be a defining element of humans. It may be a form of life but not a human being

To me, a human being is not about chromosomes, bones, parts etc. Those things are not exclusively human and to me do not constitute a reason to be counted as a human being.

That is what I mean by the interpretations of it, and that fact that scientists still argue about it is very telling.

(I don't have my medical books and research stuff with me at the moment and whenever I try to look for stats online I get a bunch of pro-life sites that are obviously going to be biased on the facts and I wanted to present some un-biased thoughts on this, but alas, for now I can't find any )
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:39 PM   #23
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i'm not sure how one can be biased in regards to facts but anyway...

i agree that scientists are still trying to determine some sor tof definition of life, but something i find interesting is that if someone is in the hospital, in a coma, brain waves are what they use to declare someone dead or alive.
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Old 10-10-2002, 04:57 PM   #24
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Some may say that life begins when the kids move out of the house. But that may be a different issue.

Thank you for the timeline Screaming Flower – it is hard to pick which stage life suddenly springs forth after conception.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:07 PM   #25
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I mean biased in regards to them only posting pro-life scientists findings and not any other research.

And we can also take the discussion to another level by debating what is death and what is considered death lol
It's a big circle of questions and ideas.

If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:14 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?
because they're brain dead. at least that's my guess.

you're right though. we're talking about things that are not consistently defined so this could go on forever.

i have to say that considering the subject matter this thread is going amazingly well.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:15 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
If someone is in a coma and the plug on their life support is pulled, we do not consider the doctor a murderer.
Why?
In a nutshell, the person was dying and technology extended the life. Pulling the plug removes technology.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:31 PM   #28
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Higher Than Science

Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl


That is what I mean by the interpretations of it, and that fact that scientists still argue about it is very telling.
Scientists can't agree on many things- like how the earth itself was created, how our brains work (funny that the neurons in our brains are connected by 'synapses,' which means "gaps") or even how wildlife from the artic & the mediterranean can coexist in the burren in Ireland.

This issue, like some of those, I think needs more than science to explain.
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Old 10-10-2002, 05:31 PM   #29
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I had a philosophy professor that drew the line at where the unborn baby could begin to feel pain. Clearly once an unborn baby or even an animal can feel pain, one had better have an important justification to justify their infliction of pain on that entity.

Clearly I don't believe this is something that should be left to just anyone's interpertation. I don't think there is anyone who would want to condone infanticide or child abuse. I happy the Government does intervene to prevent these crimes, and those that commit them will often site reasons such as, "this is the way we discipline our childern, and its our childern, and no one has a right to interfere in how we raise our childern." The law today disagree's with such assertions. 150 years ago, the majority of the USA population believed that African Americans were sub-human and did not have the same rights as European Americans. They used their "difference of opinion" to justify their continued enslavement of African Americans. Now look at how people look at this issue today.

How will people look at the issue of Abortion hundreds or thousands of years from now when it may be possible for the unborn baby to grow and develop(even soon after conception) in an artificial womb outside of the mother? Very hypothetical I know.
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Old 10-10-2002, 09:03 PM   #30
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One idea put forth by Carl Sagan I never hear anyone discuss-

He suggested that one factor that makes us uniquely human is the ability to think, which would mean that we become persons when the cerebral cortex is in place which starts around the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy -- the sixth month.

Quote:
Scientists can't agree on many things- like how the earth itself was created, how our brains work (funny that the neurons in our brains are connected by 'synapses,' which means "gaps") or even how wildlife from the artic & the mediterranean can coexist in the burren in Ireland.

This issue, like some of those, I think needs more than science to explain.
True, but should we use religious/spiritual beliefs to legislate law?
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Old 10-11-2002, 08:21 AM   #31
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I believe there will be a day in the next 30 years, where technology will have advanced to the point to be able to support the life of a child at any stage after conception outside the womb.

What then?

If for example, a girl feels the need to have an abortion she won't have to - she can elect for early adoption. Have the baby removed (at whatever stage) and then other couples can adopt the baby at they baby bank.

At this point, the question of when life begins is pointless.

Would anyone choose to kill the baby even then?

Mark
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Old 10-11-2002, 09:30 AM   #32
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What if a 16 year old girl is raped, gets pregnant, never wanted a child? If she chooses to abort, her decision may be right.

What worries me is that there are so many abortions for stupid reasons. Just because the parents were unable to be a little more careful, an abortion has to be made? That kind of morality is not ok. This is disrespecting life.

What if the parents make tests and know the child will be handicapped severly? I think the child has the right to live. But it is only the right decision if the parents really want to bring it up.

To say the truth I have to admit that I was lucky in some situations. Lucky that the girl I was with didn´t get pregnant, because I wouldn´t have known how to decide (anyway, the decision would have been mainly hers - there goes emancipation).
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Old 10-11-2002, 09:34 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadelynIris
I believe there will be a day in the next 30 years, where technology will have advanced to the point to be able to support the life of a child at any stage after conception outside the womb.

What then?

If for example, a girl feels the need to have an abortion she won't have to - she can elect for early adoption. Have the baby removed (at whatever stage) and then other couples can adopt the baby at they baby bank.

At this point, the question of when life begins is pointless.

Would anyone choose to kill the baby even then?

Mark
I wonder if the world would, in fact, be drowned with unwanted babies. After all, apart from the diseases, it's the fear of getting an unwanted pregnancy that makes women use protection, and if the problem of abortion could be solved with just a bit of surgery, well that makes for an extra reason to be even more unreasonable about unprotected sex.

Or, in case the operation was a limited option because of the cost or some other regulation, then the things would be back at where they were 30 years ago, with abortion as the only option of getting rid of pregnancy.

I agree that the whole subject of when a bunch of cells becomes a "person" with legal and moral rights is extremely murky and can be debated until everyone's fingers drop off. Personally I don't think that a mere presence of life or even ability to feel pain automatically indicates a presence of a human "soul", for the lack of better word. I think that an embryo becomes a human being as it develops and there's no magical moment when it suddenly switches from a non-person to person. It can be argued that it's wrong to put an end to even a -potential- baby, but really, if you wanted to take it even further, then every sperm and every egg is a potential person waiting to happen.

I guess that whatever nature had in mind has its purpose, but sometimes I wish that whoever or whatever designed humans didn't make pregnancy such a bloody easy, animalistic thing.
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Old 10-11-2002, 11:54 AM   #34
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The potential human senerio is interesting. But one can draw a line at conception because, clearly, before conception, the entity in question does not exist. The egg is there, but it is unknown which one of the Billions of sperm will fertilize if any. A Billion different possibilities. You can only begin to question if something has a right or deserves this or that if it exist. Before conception, the entity in question does not exist.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:02 PM   #35
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A lot of good points to respond to

Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene
What if the parents make tests and know the child will be handicapped severly? I think the child has the right to live. But it is only the right decision if the parents really want to bring it up
I agree with you that the child has the right to live, but this right is not contingent upon the parents wanting the child or not.


Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene

It can be argued that it's wrong to put an end to even a -potential- baby, but really, if you wanted to take it even further, then every sperm and every egg is a potential person waiting to happen.
Separately, they do not form a human. Only when the sperm fertilizes the egg does the organism become a human, so I'd have to say that when they are independent of each other that's where the argument can stop (or begin).
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
One idea put forth by Carl Sagan I never hear anyone discuss-

He suggested that one factor that makes us uniquely human is the ability to think, which would mean that we become persons when the cerebral cortex is in place which starts around the 24th to 27th week of pregnancy -- the sixth month.

Thinking... too bad no one can prove another person's ability to think, in or out of the womb. Another factor that makes us uniquely human is a soul, too bad we can't "prove" that either.

I think it comes down to what this thread title is about: Respect of Life.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:08 PM   #37
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But aren't you saying you are in favor of limiting one (fertility drugs), but not the other (abortion)?
I do tend to ramble, I guess my point was that if you are going to limit one (abortion) you have to limit the other (fertility drugs.) AS I do not see this happening any time soon, fertility drugs are not being limited, nor should abortion.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:09 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Thinking... too bad no one can prove another person's ability to think, in or out of the womb. Another factor that makes us uniquely human is a soul, too bad we can't "prove" that either.

I think it comes down to what this thread title is about: Respect of Life.
Well stated Oliveu2cm

I know some adults who don't seem to be thinking - but their still human.
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Old 10-11-2002, 01:42 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by oliveu2cm


Thinking... too bad no one can prove another person's ability to think, in or out of the womb. Another factor that makes us uniquely human is a soul, too bad we can't "prove" that either.

I think it comes down to what this thread title is about: Respect of Life.
Actually, the thinking that makes us uniquely human is in the neocortex, it is advanced in such a way that is vastly different than animals, this part of our brain begins to delop around 6 months, again, wish I had my books with me so I could explain it better....He talks about it in either 'Dragons of Eden' or 'Billions and Billions', both excellent reads.

As for soul, I don't think that is something that is uniquely human, if humans have a soul, I see no reason for animals to not have a soul and that gets into our own personal beliefs, not something that is scientifically proven or should be used to make laws.

Also, the idea of being able to put up for adoption a recently fertilized egg probably wouldn't change much on the abortion front. Many people don't want to put children up for adoption/foster care because they know how hard that is on a child and that there's a very good chance that the child will not be placed in a proper home. While there are many people out there wanting and waiting to adopt, if it was really at the demand we would like to think it is, then there wouldn't be so much child abuse/poverty/sickness/dispare that there is in the world.
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Old 10-11-2002, 02:18 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl

Actually, the thinking that makes us uniquely human is in the neocortex, it is advanced in such a way that is vastly different than animals, this part of our brain begins to delop around 6 months, again, wish I had my books with me so I could explain it better....He talks about it in either 'Dragons of Eden' or 'Billions and Billions', both excellent reads.
What I mean is literally no one can prove this. If we go into this discussion it gets to the point that you can't prove anything besides your self, and that loses the focus of this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl

As for soul, I don't think that is something that is uniquely human, if humans have a soul, I see no reason for animals to not have a soul and that gets into our own personal beliefs, not something that is scientifically proven or should be used to make laws.
Nothing is scientifically proven. See my above statement. The only thing you can prove is that you yoursel exist (you are aware of your thoughts). this gets into existentialism. But my point is that science is faith as much as believing in soul is faith.

I see the "you can't prove anything" argument can be used obviously that 'you can't prove it's human then either', so I will go with scientific facts and assume that we can prove we all have brains can see, etc... (sorry for bringing in another discussion, i'll try to keep to topic lol).

The "moment of conception" is when the sperm and egg create one cell. This cell is unique- never before has this exact individual human existed, and never again will another exactly like this exist. This being is complete- nothing else (besides oxygen and nutrition) will be added to it in its lifetime to make it a human. It's programmed within itself, and although it depends on its mother for food and shelter, it's totally new and unique. Killing this is killing a human being.

The "you are human when you start thinking" is just one man's (or one group's) POV. Until he can prove the opposite is NOT true (PROVE that you are not human before you start to think) then this theory doesn't hold up.



Quote:
Originally posted by Sparkysgrrrl
While there are many people out there wanting and waiting to adopt, if it was really at the demand we would like to think it is, then there wouldn't be so much child abuse/poverty/sickness/dispare that there is in the world.
I don't think that this is entirely true (esp. since most parents wish to adopt babies, rather than teenagers where you see more of the problems). There are about two million couples waiting for adoption. Furthermore, each of these couples would want two or three, if available. Many will take hard-to-place children with special needs. Citation
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