Religious Extremism

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Dreadsox

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President Bush wants war on extremists, however, he is not looking at the extremists within our own country. The extremists who influence our elections, and push issues not with their fellow man in mind, but with their own agenda.

My question is "Why do the moderates in almost all religions and polical parties allow the extremists to have the stage?"

I have seen it typed here many times and it has led me to believe that many of you think extremists are the enemy. Why then do we allow extremists to dominate? Do we deep down inside believe that they have the morally supperior ground, or do you think moderate beliefs are not what the media chooses to show? Does the media encourage extremism?

Here is an interesting article to start things off.

Newsweek

Oct. 21 issue ? One of the most troubling realities of the Muslim world today is the cowardice of moderates. Mainstream Muslim leaders?political and religious?do not condemn religious extremism often enough and vigorously enough. As a result, fundamentalists gain courage and their poisonous views go unchallenged.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE SAME phenomenon appears to be at work now with America?s own homegrown fundamentalists. Last week Jerry Falwell announced on CBS?s ?60 Minutes? that Muhammad was ?a terrorist.? (Falwell has subsequently?and unconvincingly?claimed that he meant no harm). His comments are part of a trend. At various points Pat Roberston has called Muhammad ?a robber and a brigand? and described Islam as ?a monumental scam.? Billy Graham?s son Franklin has chimed in as well, frequently calling Islam ?a very evil and wicked religion.?

While there have been scattered condemnations from editorials here and there, there has been silence from the White House and most mainstream political and religious leaders. Commentators who froth at the mouth when they read of one crackpot mullah in Egypt saying noxious things about Christians or Jews are now silent. Forget about Islamic moderates for a moment; where are America?s moderates?

And in this case, the ?extremists? are not obscure characters but rather three of the best-known religious leaders in America, with tens of millions of followers and huge political influence. Franklin Graham was invited by President George W. Bush to deliver the prayer at his Inauguration last year.

Islamic fundamentalists are having a field day with these comments, which have been played and replayed throughout the Muslim world. Al-Jazeera has broadcast fiery call-in shows on the controversy. There have been protests in India, Malaysia and Iran, and fundamentalists from London to Indonesia are saying, in effect, ?We told you that America hates Islam.? Iran?s theocrats have used Falwell?s comments to rally the country behind their otherwise unpopular regime. Throughout the Muslim world, America?s friends?the reformers, the moderates?are embarrassed, while its foes are celebrating.

As it confronts a war with Iraq, the United States is trying to convince the Arab world that it is not at war with its people. The White House and the State Department have devised major new programs to tell Muslims that America is concerned about their welfare. Yet our case becomes much harder to make?and genteel efforts at cultural exchange will count for nothing?against the backdrop of bigoted ranting by preachers.

For the next decade or so at least, the single biggest issue for American foreign policy will be its relationship with the 1.2 billion Muslims around the world. Getting that relationship right will have a greater effect on protecting American interests?including the lives of American citizens?than any other. And Falwell, Robertson and Graham?s hate-filled campaign is lighting fires that could grow into a terrible conflagration.

For the fundamentalists, September 11 solved an urgent problem. Over the past decade they have been searching for enemies. Their old ones?abortion-rights advocates and homosexuals?have not proved as useful as they had been, because Americans have become more tolerant on social issues.

Immediately after September 11, Falwell and Robertson decided to use the tragedy to fire up their flock. In a joint appearance on national television, Falwell blamed the attacks on ?the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America, I point the finger in their face and say, ?You helped this happen?.? Robertson concurred.

Other fundamentalists joined in. Billy Graham?s daughter Anne Graham Lotz told CBS?s Jane Clayson on Sept. 13, 2001, that the tragedy took place because ?Americans ... have shaken their fists at God and said, ?God, we want you out of our government ... our business ... our marketplace?.? All this backfired. In the next few weeks the preachers were roundly condemned by hundreds of organizations, newspapers, magazines and politicians?including President Bush. Falwell and Robertson backed down, issuing apologies and claiming disingenuously to have been quoted out of context. Since then, they have stopped peddling that particular brand of intolerance. In Muslims, they have found an easier target.

As President Bush has repeatedly noted since September 11, confronting extremism works. It will work again at home if he would only try.

Fareed Zakaria
 
The extremists in America have more money than those who oppose them, therefore it's easier for them to get away with what they do/say.
Money yells, not just talks.
I have no freaking idea why something hasn't been done to stop the Army of God for example.
 
Sparkysgrrrl said:
The extremists in America have more money than those who oppose them, therefore it's easier for them to get away with what they do/say.
Money yells, not just talks.
I have no freaking idea why something hasn't been done to stop the Army of God for example.

I am sure they have more money than most and that contributes to their ability to continue to be on the forefront.

What is the Army of God?
 
Funny you bring this up....

Jerry Falwell has said more than just "Muhammad is a terrorist." He stated the nature of his support for Israel, which has always intrigued me, considering that the Christian Coalition is, not only anti-Islamic, but also anti-Semitic. Pamphlets printed by them, a couple years back, attempted to convert both groups, as they were all destined for hell.

But now we know *why* there has been support for Israel from Falwell. According to him, Christ's "second coming" is supposed to happen once Israel reoccupies all of the "Holy Land," which I'm guessing consists of the West Bank as well. Apparently, once that happens, 2/3 of the Jews are supposed to die and the last 1/3 are going to be converted to Christianity. To Jerry Falwell, this is a "win-win situation," as the "second coming" also brings "The Rapture," and I'm sure he believes he is going straight to heaven.

...

Of course, why didn't "the rapture" happen a millennium ago, when the Holy Land was briefly in control of the Crusaders for a span of 20 years?

I don't think we really realize the level of Christian fanaticism we have in the United States.

Melon
 
Dreadsox said:
1-President Bush wants war on extremists, however, he is not looking at the extremists within our own country.


.

2-As President Bush has repeatedly noted since September 11, confronting extremism works. It will work again at home if he would only try.

Fareed Zakaria
Melon-
I disagree w the first statement.
Bush and our entire country is currently seeking this fanatic sniper who will prolly wind up being a religious terrorist from abroad
OR
a religious polictical whacko homegrown here..

2 I agree w the 2nd statement here and now is the time to unite and stop seeing things in a finite way..

Most ppl are ok w Billy Grahm and Franklin G..
sure they mis-spoke here, though.

You can have Robertson and Falwell though..:down:

DB9
 
Diamond Buddy,

Those are my QUOTES. You also clipped the second sentence on the first one.

Let me replace it in context for you:

President Bush wants war on extremists, however, he is not looking at the extremists within our own country. The extremists who influence our elections, and push issues not with their fellow man in mind, but with their own agenda.


Different kind of extremist from the sniper.
My point is, the President is not speaking out against all extremists. As Melon was pointing out, these people support policies not because they are good for humankind, but to push their own agenda ie: the end of the world.
 
Dreadsox said:
Diamond Buddy,

Those are my QUOTES. You also clipped the second sentence on the first one.

Let me replace it in context for you:

President Bush wants war on extremists, however, he is not looking at the extremists within our own country. The extremists who influence our elections, and push issues not with their fellow man in mind, but with their own agenda.


Different kind of extremist from the sniper.
My point is, the President is not speaking out against all extremists. As Melon was pointing out, these people support policies not because they are good for humankind, but to push their own agenda ie: the end of the world.
yes ok i guess u r turning into Melon in my feeble mind;):dance:
I think a sniper is an extremest too..they are all zealots..is my point:down:

DB9
:dance:
 
diamond said:

yes ok i guess u r turning into Melon in my feeble mind;):dance:
I think a sniper is an extremest too..they are all zealots..is my point:down:

DB9
:dance:

I do not know if that is good for me or bad for Melon.
It is probably the influence of being in the Boston area.
They are exremists, but, don't you think even a liberal president would do all that he/she could do to help take this guy down?
My point is about the extremists who spout their gospel of intolorance and use the word of God to decieve.

Peace Buddy!!!!!!


:hug:
 
Sparkysgrrrl said:
Army of God

and their Manuel

they are responsible for the bombings and anthrax incidents at abortion clinics, which rarely get media coverage, not to mention their stance on gays :mad:
these are another example of extremests..
and
I fear them more than Brother Graham..


DB9
 
Dreadsox said:


I do not know if that is good for me or bad for Melon.
It is probably the influence of being in the Boston area.
They are exremists, but, don't you think even a liberal president would do all that he/she could do to help take this guy down?
My point is about the extremists who spout their gospel of intolorance and use the word of God to decieve.

Peace Buddy!!!!!!


:hug:
its good for the both of u Bostonian youths;)

Yes-u made some good points:)

DB9
:dance:
 
melon said:
Of course, why didn't "the rapture" happen a millennium ago, when the Holy Land was briefly in control of the Crusaders for a span of 20 years?

I don't think we really realize the level of Christian fanaticism we have in the United States.

Melon

So if we take a pre-millennial view in our study of eschatology, then we are considered a fanatic? I think we need to be careful, on an individual level, of the extremism of our labeling.
 
U2Bama said:


Diamond:

THis would be a great time for you to tell Dreadsox about your experience at Bos. #4.

~U2Alabama
Brooke-
I dont have to.
Dread was in attendance that nite:)
Thank You-
DB9
:dance:
 
Last edited:
nbcrusader said:


So if we take a pre-millennial view in our study of eschatology, then we are considered a fanatic? I think we need to be careful, on an individual level, of the extremism of our labeling.

I do not think that was implied anywhere. However,the point is that there are Extremist Christians that are supporting one side over another, not because it is moral, but becasue they hope to cause the rapture to happen. That is what is wrong. Their comments are not to help the situation, but to throw more fuel onto the fire and give people a reason to hate our country.
 
Dreadsox said:


I do not think that was implied anywhere. However,the point is that there are Extremist Christians that are supporting one side over another, not because it is moral, but becasue they hope to cause the rapture to happen. That is what is wrong. Their comments are not to help the situation, but to throw more fuel onto the fire and give people a reason to hate our country.

Maybe I read Melon's post differently. Having spent some time studying Scripture, I occasionally see some beliefs dismissed as ?fundamentalist,? critiqued as ?intolerant,? or labeled ?fanatic? ? all without Scriptural support.

I think it is foolhardy to think that we can "cause the rapture to happen". Unfortunately, clowns like Falwell and Robertson think they can. Such is the work, however, of anyone seeking airtime. Shock statements get airplay. A thoughtful theological analysis of different religions, even if it results is a conclusion that more or more religions are false, won?t see the light of day.

I?d say extremist organizations (such as the ?Army of God?) are thoroughly condemned by most denominations, even from the pulpit. I see plenty of internal critique of extremist views within a denomination. Sometimes its seems like too many believers have the gift of criticism.
 
nbcrusader said:


Maybe I read Melon's post differently. Having spent some time studying Scripture, I occasionally see some beliefs dismissed as ?fundamentalist,? critiqued as ?intolerant,? or labeled ?fanatic? ? all without Scriptural support.

I think it is foolhardy to think that we can "cause the rapture to happen". Unfortunately, clowns like Falwell and Robertson think they can. Such is the work, however, of anyone seeking airtime. Shock statements get airplay. A thoughtful theological analysis of different religions, even if it results is a conclusion that more or more religions are false, won?t see the light of day.

I?d say extremist organizations (such as the ?Army of God?) are thoroughly condemned by most denominations, even from the pulpit. I see plenty of internal critique of extremist views within a denomination. Sometimes its seems like too many believers have the gift of criticism.

perfectly put!
 
nbcrusader said:


I think it is foolhardy to think that we can "cause the rapture to happen". Unfortunately, clowns like Falwell and Robertson think they can. Such is the work, however, of anyone seeking airtime. Shock statements get airplay. A thoughtful theological analysis of different religions, even if it results is a conclusion that more or more religions are false, won?t see the light of day.


It is these people that scare me the most. They think they are working for God by trying to cause the rapture to happen. I think they fail to recognize that God will make it happen no matter what they do. Isn't it silly to think that we can influence when God's ultimate plan will occur? Maybe that is the plan?


:scratch:
 
Dreadsox said:
Isn't it silly to think that we can influence when God's ultimate plan will occur? Maybe that is the plan?


:scratch:

No way - too many warnings that we can't predict what will happen ("Like a thief in the night"). We are only told to be ready, not to say when - let alone force His hand!

Peace brothers!
 
nbcrusader said:


No way - too many warnings that we can't predict what will happen ("Like a thief in the night"). We are only told to be ready, not to say when - let alone force His hand!

Peace brothers!


Now this is making me think of the beginning of "Peace on Earth".
 
Dreadsox said:
President Bush wants war on extremists, however, he is not looking at the extremists within our own country.

Fareed Zakaria

Maybe nobody is going after the "extremists" in our own country because they are NOT BLOWING UP FRIGGIN' BUILDINGS!!!!

Let's all cut the PC BS...this is a war against RADICAL ISLAM! Islamic extremists are the ones who blow up busses in Israel. Islamic extremists are the ones who flew planes into two of our tallest skyscrapers and KILLED 3,000 INNOCENT people.
Islamic extremists are the ones who have declared Jihad against all non-muslims.

Don't mean to shout, but I'm frankly getting sick of people side-stepping the FACTS on this one.

The war on terror, as of now, is against RADICAL ISLAM and their supporters. Period.
 
Re: Re: Religious Extremism

wolfwill23 said:


Maybe nobody is going after the "extremists" in our own country because they are NOT BLOWING UP FRIGGIN' BUILDINGS!!!!

Wasn't Timothy McVeigh a US citizen? Although he wasn't a religious extremist, he did have extremist political ideas (AFAIK).

Marty

Bottom line: Fundamental extremist views are always dangerous (be it religious, political, sociological).
 
Re: Re: Religious Extremism

wolfwill23 said:


Maybe nobody is going after the "extremists" in our own country because they are NOT BLOWING UP FRIGGIN' BUILDINGS!!!!

True they are just getting in the way of peaceful resolutions to our nations problems. They damage our reputations in other nations becasue they are seen as the religious leaders of our country, just as our news reports about the extremist clerics in other nations.


wolfwill23 said:

Let's all cut the PC BS...this is a war against RADICAL ISLAM! Islamic extremists are the ones who blow up busses in Israel. Islamic extremists are the ones who flew planes into two of our tallest skyscrapers and KILLED 3,000 INNOCENT people.
Islamic extremists are the ones who have declared Jihad against all non-muslims.

This is the first time I have EVER been accused of PC (SOMEONE TELL HIM I AM NOT PC PLEASE). I will have to go back and review my posts on other issues now. Interesting, our religious leaders have accused the religion of ISLAM to be a wicked religion. They did not specify RADICAL ISLAM. Our religious leaders have/are advocating action not becasue it is better for the world we live in, or to end human suffering. They are advocating action because they hope to cause the Second Coming to occur.

As for September 11, not one place in the article, nor in my posts have I said that we should do nothing in response. I have been very outspoken in my support of the War on Terrorism.

wolfwill23 said:

Don't mean to shout, but I'm frankly getting sick of people side-stepping the FACTS on this one.

You are missing the fact. In the Muslim world, we had moderate muslims who supported our causes. In Desert Storm, we had the support of most Muslims in the region. The point of the article is that these ministers, due to their inflamatory language, and their overzealousness to cause the Rapture, they are not helping the world view of our country.

wolfwill23 said:

The war on terror, as of now, is against RADICAL ISLAM and their supporters. Period.

Yes it is. The point of my post is that we allow Extremists in our own country to dominate. Again, if we do not change the root cause of the hatred towards our country, acts like Sept. 11 will continue to occur. Maybe looking in the mirror a little bit would help us. Please do not take this to mean I think we brought it on ourselves. There are many more factors, this may just be one of them though.


Peace to all.
 
WOLFWILL, what u see is a small portion of the big picture... The terrorism that has occured here, is because of the fighting extremists in this world....
Please don't tell me that the only enemies here are that of the Radical so-called muslims...
*I honestly believe that the main agressor here are the Western EXTREMISTS who have set thier ideologies and forced it on that of the Muslim World... The fault of the Muslim World, is that they have for the most part chosen the wrong strategy to go against it.... They are also lacking unity and respect for eachother.*

Wolfwill, Have you ever heard of Sabra And Shatilla; lets just say that was the equivilant of 911, except most of the victims were women and children.... Sharon had acted on an attack on a refugee camp in Lebanon, that held innocent Palestinians... till today, Sharon has not been charged for that...
O, and what about the thousends of children who have been shot and dilebrately killed by IDF soldiers in the West Bank... O, that sort of stuff we RARELY hear over hear...
Israel is the America of the Middle East, and Sharon, has dilleberately shown his anger against Arabs (Christian and Muslims)... Now, I"m not saying that Jews are extremists, but I'm giving you an example of Extremissm within the people of that faith....
What about Iran, we all remember the American hostages held captive.. But what about the Shah, what did he represent... NOne other then another appointed American puppet to Iran... The people of Iran had suffered under the Shah... Beleive me, this is an act of Western extremism...

Also, I'm not sure about any of you, but the only thing people hear about Chechnya over here, are the suicide attacks in Russia... Has anyone heard anything about the Mass slaughter of innocent little boys and men of Chechnya,?NO. Isn't interesting that Chechnya has an outstanding shortage of men and boys compared to women and girls..?.
This is where many of the resentment from the Muslim world comes from.. The WEST (for the most part) hAS FINANCIALLY AND SOME WHAT MORALLY SUPPORT THE HARSH TREATMENT THAT IS BEING IMPLEMENTED IN VARIOUS PARTS OF THE WORLD...

Point being, their is extremisnism in the Western World and the Muslim World....


peace,
Amna
 
Sparkysgrrrl said:
Army of God

and their Manuel

they are responsible for the bombings and anthrax incidents at abortion clinics, which rarely get media coverage, not to mention their stance on gays :mad:

Oh.My.Goodness.

I cannot believe these people. Seriously, I'm lost for words. They claim to be pro-LIFE and then they praise murderers? What sick people.
 
Extremists, period, make me sick. They're bad news. I don't like these Christian fundamentalists who are saying bad things about Islam. What do they know about Islam? Next to nothing. I'm no expert on Islam but I do know that Moslem X is a decent person with an ordinary life. Saying all Moslems are terrorists or hateful or whatever is about like accusing Christians of being in extremist groups like the Army of God or the Ku Klux Klan. I don't like extremists like Osama either, but they don't represent Moslems. I wish these people would bother to get their facts straight and stop defaming Moslems. As a practicing Catholic this nonsense gets under my skin. :mad: :mad: :censored: :censored: :scream: :scream:
 
So America wishes for Islamic nations to reign in their religious extremists? Maybe it's time we practiced what we preached.

*tongue planted firmly in cheek

Melon
 
melon said:
Christian Coalition is, not only anti-Islamic, but also anti-Semitic. Pamphlets printed by them, a couple years back, attempted to convert both groups, as they were all destined for hell.

Melon, wishing to convert someone doesn't make you anti-that person. I would want Jews and Muslims to come to Christ, and if given the opportunity, I would try to convert them if the Holy Spirit so led me. That doesn't make me anti-semitic or anti-Islamic. The term "anti" implies a certain dislike or even hatred. I defy anyone to call me anti-semitic.

Why do Christians try to convert? Because we know we've got the truth, and we want others to share in that. If someone were anti-semitic, why would he try to convert a Jew?
 
You're right, 80s, wanting to convert someone isn't anti-anything. Conversion is a delicate topic. I should know, I'm a convert to Catholicism. The thing is, that person has to *want* to convert. If they don't want to convert, then they're not going to. Conversion is by choice, not coercion. I think it's the whole coercion thing that makes people upset about it. It has to be by choice.
 
Melon, wishing to convert someone doesn't make you anti-that person. I would want Jews and Muslims to come to Christ, and if given the opportunity, I would try to convert them if the Holy Spirit so led me. That doesn't make me anti-semitic or anti-Islamic. The term "anti" implies a certain dislike or even hatred. I defy anyone to call me anti-semitic.

I guess this depends on how the conversion is handled. If an individual comes to you, then I wouldn't see the conversion as being anti-anything. But if you approach them based on the fact that you know they are Jewish, Muslim, etc. than what you are saying is "my way is right and I oppose your way of thinking" then I would say that is being anti-semitic, etc.
 
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