religious expression or genital mutilation?

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Irvine511

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[q]Oregon Legal Battle Ignites Debate on Circumcision
By JOSH GERSTEIN
Staff Reporter of the Sun
September 18, 2007

A legal battle between divorced parents in Oregon about the circumcision of their 12-year-old son is fast becoming a flash point between critics of the procedure and those who endorse it on medical and religious grounds.

James Boldt, a recent convert to Judaism, wants his son, who is also said to be converting, circumcised. Mr. Boldt's ex-wife, Lia, has objected. Lower courts sided with Mr. Boldt, who has full custody of his son. However, the Oregon Supreme Court has agreed to hear arguments in the dispute in November.

Four Jewish organizations, the American Jewish Committee, the American Jewish Congress, the Anti-Defamation League, and the Orthodox Union, have joined together in an amicus curiae brief supporting the father's right to proceed over the mother's objections.

"It is of particular importance to amici that American Jews be free to practice circumcision because circumcision is and has been one of the most fundamental and sacred parts of the Jewish religion," the groups wrote. "Enabling the circumcision of a child, whether as part of a religious conversion or for medical reasons, cannot as a matter of law indicate any infirmity in a parent's ability to function as a parent. Moreover, any decision to single out circumcision as a basis for questioning the fitness of the custodial parent would violate the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of religion."

Ms. Boldt is being backed by a Seattle-based group, Doctors Against Circumcision, which contends that the procedure is unnecessary and amounts to abuse.

"Parents are free to practice their religion and to have religious beliefs, but they are not free to change the physical body of their child at will," the anti-circumcision group's executive director, John Geisheker, told The New York Sun.

Mr. Boldt contends that his son wants to have the circumcision done. However, Mr. Geisheker said it is impossible to know whether the son's choice is being made freely.

In court papers, Mr. Geisheker's group has argued that male circumcision should not be permitted on constitutional grounds because many states have passed laws banning female genital mutilation. Though studies have shown less incidence of sexually transmitted disease in circumcised men, Mr. Geisheker contends that circumcision is "non-therapeutic." He said it is akin to an increasingly trendy procedure where women have the appearance of their vaginas altered.

"Would you allow your 12-year-old daughter to have her labia trimmed for cosmetic reasons?" he asked.

The Jewish groups warned that a decision blocking the circumcision would encourage litigation over all sorts of medical procedures for children. "Surely a parent has the same authority to have a child's vision corrected or a birthmark on his face removed even if those procedures are also elective and even if the other parent objects," they wrote. "The Jewish experience with circumcision has shown that it is a safe and simple procedure with few complications."[/q]
 
in divorce cases,
often times they ask the child which parent he would prefer to live with

they should consider the child's wishes here, too.




male circumcism is not even close to female genital mutilation

it seems more like the mother is using the son to battle her ex-husband

and the kid wants it


of course I am unbiased,
I am the owner / operator on a circumcised penis

no regrets
always positive reviews :shrug:
 
The question is either the father alone or the child able to consent to genital mutilation, not the merits or disadvantage of circumcision.
 
I have read that a lot of American males, both Jews and Gentiles, are circumcised but I really don't see the point of the procedure.

Also, what's wrong with letting the kid grow up to be an adult and then making his own decisions as to which religion he wishes to practise?
 
financeguy said:
I have read that a lot of American males, Jews and Gentiles, are circumcised but I really don't see the point of the procedure.
It keeps the boys from getting into the sex.
 
financeguy said:
Also, what's wrong with letting the kid grow up to be an adult and then making his own decisions as to which religion he wishes to practise?

That would be my choice, but it seems to be rarely done -- at least in the US.
 
financeguy said:
I have read that a lot of American males, both Jews and Gentiles, are circumcised but I really don't see the point of the procedure.

I am checking stats

and it seems somewhere around 70-80 percent of U S males are cut.

Myself and all members of my family are.
My father, who was born in 1915 was not.

The procedure is done during infancy.

So we have no recollection of how we were born.

When the topic has come up, women volunteer that they prefer circumcised. :shrug:
 
deep said:


When the topic has come up, women volunteer that they prefer circumcised. :shrug:

Or maybe it's just what most American women are familiar with. I preferred cut until I experienced uncut. :wink: But seriously, most women I think prefer whatever the man they're in love with has.

I'd like the kid to be able to decide when he's older. Poor kid--must be great having your penis in the news at 12.
 
MrPryck2U said:
I don't get it. Don't most boys get their penises circumcised?

In the US, not elsewhere in the world. And even in North America there is a movement towards more and more parents not wanting it done. I know when I worked at a pediatric hospital, the nurses commented that the numbers are visibly diminishing with the younger generation parents.
 
"Parents are free to practice their religion and to have religious beliefs, but they are not free to change the physical body of their child at will," the anti-circumcision group's executive director, John Geisheker, told The New York Sun.

Amen!
 
anitram said:


In the US, not elsewhere in the world. And even in North America there is a movement towards more and more parents not wanting it done. I know when I worked at a pediatric hospital, the nurses commented that the numbers are visibly diminishing with the younger generation parents.

Thanks for the info!

There should be a new motto:

"A circumcised penis is a good penis!"

Or:

"A circimcised penis is your friend!"
 
it's weird -- i personally prefer a circumsized penis (nothing against the uncut, though, like those too) but i wish i wasn't circumsized.

go double standards!

but, were i to have a male child, there is no way he'd be circumsized. the foreskin is there for a reason.

as for this situation ... i suppose legally the boy can choose to have this done, but if i were the mother i'd fight like hell to prevent it from being done as well. but the law might be on the side of the father.
 
I say everyone can bugger off and let the kid decide for himself. I don't really care either way on male circumcision. I think that it's best for the baby boy to match the father (like when the kid is little and might have issues looking "different" than his dad), but in this case, the boy is not a baby, so he's not going to be in the tub with his daddy any time soon. Therefore, it's no one else's biznaz and he can decide for himself.
 
But don't you have to like. . .clean. . .under the flap of skin if you're uncircumsized.

I read about that in the sex ed books as a kid and I was always glad I didn't have to mess with that.

I don't suppose that's a particularly compelling argument, but I really don't see circumcision as much different than getting your ears pierced or other forms of "mutilation." As long as it's not causing harm/dysfunction (as is the case with female circumcison) I don't see what the issue is.
 
maycocksean said:

I don't suppose that's a particularly compelling argument, but I really don't see circumcision as much different than getting your ears pierced or other forms of "mutilation." As long as it's not causing harm/dysfunction (as is the case with female circumcison) I don't see what the issue is.




do you know how many nerve endings are in the foreskin? your ability to receive sexual pleasure is dramatically reduced. is it comparable to FGM? no. is it still mutilation that comes from an anti-sex ethos? yes.

penises were born with foreskins. why remove them?
 
I've never met a circumsiced man :reject: .

It's not common here.

But basically, I'm against any form of physical change on babies or small children, besides for health reasons. I think people should have the right to grow up and decide themselves what they want to do to their bodies. It's not right to do something like that to babies, they cannot object to it.
 
damn straight about the removal of lots of goody nice feeling nerve endings. You circumsized boys are missing out.

Also that whole 'unclean' idea about a foreskin is untrue. Of course if you don't wash it and you'e a mangy dog then its going to be dirty either which way, if you're a normal person and wash normally - everything is hunky dory.

but its a lot more painful to get circumsized as an adult then as a baby... so this let them choose thing wouldn't work so much.
 
dazzlingamy said:
but its a lot more painful to get circumsized as an adult then as a baby...



this is what concerns me to.

it's very painful. amazing what religous ferver will to do you, and cause you to do to your children.

i can't imagine circumsicision as being some kind of be-all-end-all for Jewish-hood.
 
maycocksean said:
But don't you have to like. . .clean. . .under the flap of skin if you're uncircumsized.

:shrug:

Of course, just like you have to clean your ears and wash your hair. It's just another body part.
 
Bono's American Wife said:


:shrug:

Of course, just like you have to clean your ears and wash your hair. It's just another body part.



yes, but this means parents have to say the word p-e-n-i-s to their little boys.

:shudder:
 
It's definately losing popularity among younger people. I can think of several people I know who have chosen not to circumcise their babies.
 
Bono's American Wife said:


:shrug:

Of course, just like you have to clean your ears and wash your hair. It's just another body part.

Funny, I almost mentioned in my last post that I have enough trouble remembering to wash behind my ears. . . ;)
 
Irvine511 said:




yes, but this means parents have to say the word p-e-n-i-s to their little boys.

:shudder:

Irvine, do you really think that what's motivating most people (especially non-Jewish people) to get their boys circumsized? A fear of having to talk about penises? I can assure you that wasn't the case in my family.

And religious fervor? I can't speak for any other faiths but I don't think I know of a single Christian who thinks circumcision is some sort of requirement of the faith. I know it has NO religious connotations for me at all!

I think your strongest argument would be that people continue to circumsize out of a kind of blind sense of tradition and "Well, isn't that what you're SUPPOSED to do" and "Well, I want my son to look like me" and so on. I think THAT's what's motivating most people (and it's what would motivate me).

As to the loss of nerve endings. . .well, perhaps my sex life is a sad, empty shell of what might have been, but it sure doesn't seem that way. I know we've been through this before in an early thread, but I'll say again, that speaking as a circumsized man I've never felt marred or as if I was missing some vital thing. And I kind of resent people trying to convince me that I should feel that way.
 
last unicorn said:

But basically, I'm against any form of physical change on babies or small children, besides for health reasons. I think people should have the right to grow up and decide themselves what they want to do to their bodies. It's not right to do something like that to babies, they cannot object to it.

So where's the thread of outrage against piercing the ears of young girls?
 
maycocksean said:

So where's the thread of outrage against piercing the ears of young girls?

Don't most piercing holes close up -- even ones years old -- if you take the jewelry out? Mine always have. I've never yet heard of a foreskin growing back. :wink:


As for circumcision, not being male, and not having children, I don't really care either way. As long as it's clean and works well either is hunky dory with me. :)
 
maycocksean said:


So where's the thread of outrage against piercing the ears of young girls?

Well I can tell you that I was - and still am - outraged that my parents forced me to have my ears pierced as a young girl, it hurt like hell and I hardly ever wore earrings. Seriously, I don't remember being asked about that. Growing up, I hoped my holes would disappear or close, which they have almost done. So, yes, I'm against that as well. Parents do a lot of things to their kids just because THEY want it that way.


(Oh no, I just realized I might have a pierced ears trauma :huh: ...)
 
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