reclaiming the "C Word"

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Irvine511

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we've had discussions about the gay community reclaiming the word "queer," or the African-American community reclaiming the "N Word" or altering the word slightly to give us the new word "nigga."

now, Zoe Williams argues that feminists must do the same thing with the "C Word."

(i can't even type it).

[q]The feminist mistake

It's not the v-word that needs reclaiming, it's the c-word - the rudest one in the English language

Zoe Williams
Wednesday June 14, 2006
The Guardian

[...]

There's a problem here, isn't there, a problem which is not covered by the fact that she's American and we're not, that American feminism (now on its third wave - why haven't we got a third wave?) has different concerns, and some cool and unusual moves. It is fair to say that, wherever you are in the Englishspeaking world, the controversial word is not vagina, but cunt. More to the point, Ensler knows this, which is why the talking point of the Vagina Monologues was never its use of the word "vagina", but rather, the bit where it required of its audience that they all stood up and reclaimed the word "cunt". The reason nobody said vagina 10 years ago is the same nobody says it now, apart from doctors and, at a pinch, art critics who have already said pudenda twice in the one paragraph.

People who hate women, or find us disgusting or terrifying, do not use "vagina" casually, as an insult. People who think of themselves as post-feminists, who delight in the shock of an apparently unsisterly sound emitting from them conversationally, do not say "vagina". I got chatting to a guy the other day wearing a T-shirt that said "I heart vagina", which, I think, says it all. Not that the T-shirt was funny, particularly, but if "vagina" were in anything approaching common usage, it would have been actively unfunny. It was weird because it was unusual, and funny because it was weird. And for all her many good works, it's a disappointment that Ensler has wimped out here. Saying the word once doesn't have much impact if you thereafter eschew it in favour of something more "responsible".

A correlative would be if the gay rights movement had started out reclaiming "queer", and only claimed credit for reclaiming "homosexual". Because it's not explosively insulting, because it's formal and a bit technical, because you can imagine it appearing on a legal document and not bawled across a bar in provocation, "homosexual" would have been a polite sort of coup. The mistake feminists make, when they object to the c-word but never approach it, and never use it, is to think that it will slip discreetly out of the language. Of course it won't! It's the rudest word we've got, in the entire language. It's like thinking the secret of nuclear fission is just going to disappear. (This was a point not lost on Inga Muscio, who made a splash with her book Cunt: A Declaration of Independence.)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1797082,00.html

[/q]



thoughts?

what does it mean to reclaim a word? what is the cultural process of doing so? what else is reclaimed along with the word? is something lost? does the word lose it's power or is discourse coarsened?

thoughts?
 
I'm not sure about the "reclaiming a word" part, but just to add an interesting thought to the discussion...

I took a course in university on the roots of words in the English language, and my professor raised this as an interesting point. The C-word is a native English word originally meaning something like "wedge", most likely a reference to shape. On the other hand, vagina comes from Latin and meant something akin to "sheath for a sword". It's interesting that we find the C-word to be more offensive.
 
While I have no problem yelling at the TV and calling Ann Coulter the c word, I suppose that is actually the opposite of what reclaiming it means. To reclaim it I need to refer to myself as the c word, and jokingly with my female friends. I just don't see that happening. Maybe it's just not an issue for me? Maybe we're too polite with each other? It's not our style? We don't feel oppressed enough? I don't know. At heart I'm not a feminist; I simply assume the position of equality and don't take a lot of shit from people. But that doesn't make me a feminist. I guess the c word probably isn't going to be my battle.

Interestingly, I think it's my gay male friends who love women who feel the most comfortable using it, though still not in any PC context--just when slamming down the phone after a frustrating conversation while placing a take-out order or something.

Just some random thoughts. I guess I don't think about the c word all that much. :shrug:
 
joyfulgirl said:
Interestingly, I think it's my gay male friends who love women who feel the most comfortable using it, though still not in any PC context--just when slamming down the phone after a frustrating conversation while placing a take-out order or something.


do you think that it might be the lack of potential sexual domination (by the male) in the straight girl/gay male relationship makes the word more acceptable? can a gay man denigrate a woman in the same way a straight man can?
 
I think this is honestly the only word I'll never use, besides racial insults of course. IMO there's nothing to "reclaim" about it. I don't care what it was intended to mean thousands of years ago, I've never heard the word used in a context that was not meant to be derogatory.
 
LivLuvAndBootlegMusic said:
I've never heard the word used in a context that was not ment to be derogatory.




which begs the question asked by the article -- if you were to remove the word from a derogatory context, would it lose meaning? would it lost its power?
 
Irvine511 said:

which begs the question asked by the article -- if you were to remove the word from a derogatory context, would it lose meaning? would it lost its power?

I guess my question is, why deal with it in the first place? What value does the word "cunt" have that's worth salvaging? To me it's like deciding "motherfucker" doesn't have to be an insult and we should try to change the meaning. Um, no. We already have perfectly good words for each piece of female genatalia. And even those words have their own colloquial synonyms that aren't necessarily derogatory (everyone in my house refers to a vagina as a "va jay jay").
 
This 'reclaiming the word' sounds like psychobabble to me.
 
Should we start reclaiming the phrase "Jew you down"?

It would seem that each culture reclaims particularly troublesome phrases for their own usage ("******" for Af-Ams, for example). Letting an outsider use it, however, still seems taboo.

So perhaps women can use the word (which they already do, at least in the circles I roll with), but men can't.
 
anitram said:
This 'reclaiming the word' sounds like psychobabble to me.

I had a similar reaction.

It strikes me as a way to have it "both ways" - allowing use of a word for some people, but being able to claim prejudicial intent if used by others.
 
nbcrusader said:
It strikes me as a way to have it "both ways" - allowing use of a word for some people, but being able to claim prejudicial intent if used by others.

It's not hard to understand, though. If you're an insider, you can use the "reclaimed" word. If you're an outsider, you can't. It doesn't get any more difficult than that.

Melon
 
I think our time would be better spent reclaiming words like "fiscal conservative" and "liberal." :wink:
 
melon said:


It's not hard to understand, though. If you're an insider, you can use the "reclaimed" word. If you're an outsider, you can't. It doesn't get any more difficult than that.

Melon

But the whole point of reclaiming words is to strip them of their power. What this process does is not "reclaim" a word for society, since it reinforces cultural taboos at large, nor does it strip the word of its power (again, since those taboos remain).
 
nathan1977 said:
But the whole point of reclaiming words is to strip them of their power. What this process does is not "reclaim" a word for society, since it reinforces cultural taboos at large, nor does it strip the word of its power (again, since those taboos remain).

Well, I understand and respect both POVs on this subject, really. I understand the minority opinion that wishes to "take back" a hurtful word for themselves, and I understand the confusion amongst the majority who have spent most, if not all, of their lives being told that these are bad words that should not be spoken at all.

Melon
 
melon said:


Well, I understand and respect both POVs on this subject, really. I understand the minority opinion that wishes to "take back" a hurtful word for themselves, and I understand the confusion amongst the majority who have spent most, if not all, of their lives being told that these are bad words that should not be spoken at all.

Melon

I agree.

I have to say, though, that the c word has never bothered me all that much, perhaps because I have never been on the receiving end of it in a truly hateful way. I guess I never related to it as being the equivalent of the n word. I've thought of it as derogatory, yes, but hateful, no. But I do appreciate where the author of the article is coming from.

Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I'm going to reclaim "beat you like a red-headed step child"

LOL
 
Irvine511 said:


do you think that it might be the lack of potential sexual domination (by the male) in the straight girl/gay male relationship makes the word more acceptable? can a gay man denigrate a woman in the same way a straight man can?

Something like that--and my gay male friends would never direct the word towards a woman to her face in a hateful way (well, never say never, but it's hard for me to imagine), they just use it, on very rare occasions, as a simple expression of frustration just as we would say "dick" or "bitch" in private conversation, and honestly it doesn't push my buttons.

I do think a gay man can denigrate a woman in a similar way as a straight man because we all have issues with the opposite gender in some way, or with particular individuals or types of individuals of the opposite sex. But the way in which they denigrate women just doesn't have the element of sexual dominance (unless they're really screwed up, lol).
 
melon said:


Well, I understand and respect both POVs on this subject, really. I understand the minority opinion that wishes to "take back" a hurtful word for themselves, and I understand the confusion amongst the majority who have spent most, if not all, of their lives being told that these are bad words that should not be spoken at all.

I am a woman and there is no confusion here for me. I just don't see this as a particularly important issue for women.

Women are still making less money on average than men. We have groups who would like to restrict contraception and other reproductive rights for us. We are still battered and raped by men in shocking numbers. We are still poorer than men, more of us are on the various social assistance plans and raising children on our own.

There are 1000 issues women face today and the "C" word ranks somewhere around 977 for me. But maybe I'm an exception, who knows.
 
anitram said:


There are 1000 issues women face today and the "C" word ranks somewhere around 977 for me. But maybe I'm an exception, who knows.

I feel much the same way.

But I do agree with melon that some words are just ingrained in people as being "bad" and I respect that they really are trying to be respectful in not using them. But for me some words are just so bad that I just have to say them sometimes, lol.
 
"Cunt" has already been 'detoxed' or 'reclaimed' in much of Britain. One hears it on TV there, much to my surprise. It is usually used as an insult from one guy to another, not against women, however.

I remember when 'horny', 'bastard' and 'condom' were taboo. No longer, which is an overall positive (please construct a sentence using all three words).

I admire Ensler's efforts, though she has a long way to go.

Freeing up our wonderful language is a good thing, but only the mass media can effect such a huge change as taking the sting out such intrinsically harmless words as 'cunt', '******', 'motherfucker' and 'Red Sox fan'.
 
anitram said:


I am a woman and there is no confusion here for me. I just don't see this as a particularly important issue for women.

Women are still making less money on average than men. We have groups who would like to restrict contraception and other reproductive rights for us. We are still battered and raped by men in shocking numbers. We are still poorer than men, more of us are on the various social assistance plans and raising children on our own.

There are 1000 issues women face today and the "C" word ranks somewhere around 977 for me. But maybe I'm an exception, who knows.

:up:
 
4U2Play said:

Freeing up our wonderful language is a good thing, but only the mass media can effect such a huge change as taking the sting out such intrinsically harmless words as 'cunt', '******', 'motherfucker' and 'Red Sox fan'.

Well then by this list of words aren't you saying there are no words that are harmful?:eyebrow:
 
Key word: "intrinsically"

If you utter those words in Borneo, hardly anyone there will be offended by them.

Because they are given some sort of "meaning" and symbolism (Chomsky) here in the US, they are judged differently.

Some people consider them harmful, some don't. I'm on the side of rendering harmless as many English words as possible. This will lessen the power of those who hate.

Derrida wrote a whole book on this subject called, "Of Grammatology", which explains the effect of deconstruction on previously rigidly defined texts, opening them up to several different meanings and interpretations, causing instability in how words and phrases are defined.
 
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4U2Play said:


If you utter those words in Borneo, hardly anyone there will be offended by them.


But there are words there that are considered offensive there that won't be considered here...

History and language will always go hand in hand in determining the reason and need for such words. SOME will suffer due to PC, but there are some that need to be omitted or used.

A word like '******' holds no value. The violence behind that word will never be removed no matter how much "they take it back".
 
Says who? You?

The FCC bans certain words on its airwaves, many of which are used on a daily basis by a large percentage of the US populace. How did they choose those words, and not others?

Where is the "violence" behind the word 'cunt'?
 
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...as a heart attack.

Have you ever seen "The Vagina Monologues" when the Ensler character has everyone stand up and yell "CUNT!" ?

Did you freak out and act offended, or did you try to understand what she was trying to do?
 
4U2Play said:
Says who? You?

The FCC bans certain words on its airwaves, many of which are used on a daily basis by a large percentage of the US populace. How did they choose those words, and not others?

Where is the "violence" behind the word 'cunt'?

What does FCC have to do with this? No one even mentioned the FCC.

A word like '******' holds no value. The violence behind that word will never be removed no matter how much "they take it back".

Too bad you couldn't defend this word in you list...
 
anitram said:


I am a woman and there is no confusion here for me. I just don't see this as a particularly important issue for women.

Women are still making less money on average than men. We have groups who would like to restrict contraception and other reproductive rights for us. We are still battered and raped by men in shocking numbers. We are still poorer than men, more of us are on the various social assistance plans and raising children on our own.

There are 1000 issues women face today and the "C" word ranks somewhere around 977 for me. But maybe I'm an exception, who knows.


I agree. I find it mighty hard to get upset about this.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:
What does FCC have to do with this? No one even mentioned the FCC.

I did. Sorry you couldn't understand what I meant by that statement and question, maybe others here will figure it out.



Too bad you couldn't defend this word in you list...


Don't feel bad... that's called sticking to the subject, which is about reclaiming the 'c' word, not treatises on the defense of '******'. Nice attempt, though. :wink:
 
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