Read This!! Why Iraq War Is Wrong.

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Infinity

Refugee
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Hey Everybody! IF YOU ARE INTELLIGENT, YOU'D VOTE FOR KERRY, AND HERE'S WHY.

The Iraq war was wrong for many reasons:
1) When Bush first started talks of war on Iraq, he said that war is necessary because Iraq has weapons of mass destruction and has ties with al-qaeda/9-11. When the UN weapons inspectors went into Iraq in 2002, Bush was confident that they'd find weapons, thats why he didnt have to worry about what to do if they didnt find weapons, cuz he was going to war no matter what. However, the inspectors found NO weapons. Yet still bush insisted that Iraq has weapons and went to war anyway. Meanwhile, there was no evidence of a connection between Iraq and Al-qaeda, that's why bush had to make an excuse for the war...and then came the 3rd reason: he said Saddam was a bad leader. Yes, we all agree with that, however this was just an excuse because Bush couldnt find any evidence of weapons or ties with al-qaeda.

Ok, so Saddam Hussein was a bad leader. But there are other countries that the leaders are bad AND have ties to alqaeda AND have weapons of mass destruction.

1) IRAN, for example, let the 9/11 hijackers pass through their country without stopping them

2) SAUDI ARABIA funded 9/11, most of the hijackers were Saudi.

3) North Korea. It has about 8 nuclear weapons. The leader of N.K., Kim, even admitted this. Each of these nukes can destroy New York City, and a 40 mile radius around it. Also, these nukes CAN reach west coast of the U.S. Also, even if Saddam had weapons, there would be no way they could reach the U.S.

So let's review:
1) There is no evidence found that Iraq had WMD's, says a very recent CIA report.
2) Also, the Iraqi weapons facilities are old and out of use!!! This also came from the recent CIA report.
3) The 9/11 commission concluded that Iraq had NO connection with 9/11.
4) Meanwhile, North Korea has weapons, they aren't afraid to use them, and those weapons CAN reach the U.S.
5) Also, Iran and Saudi Arabia HAVE ties with alqaeda.

Also, i'd like to add this:

Osama Bin Laden is in the mountain regions between Afghanistan and Pakistan. U.S. troops are searching for him there. However, they are only on the Afghan side of the border. Now wouldn't it help if we could search on the Pakistani side??, where there are many villages who support bin Laden, so theres a very good chance that he can be hiding there. So why don't we go onto the Pakistani side? Because Pakistani President Pervez Musharaff won't let the U.S. enter. First of all, the region where bin Laden could be hiding is not even under Musharaff's control, because of all the Radical Islamists that control it. So now the question is, why won't bush go into this region of Pakistan by using force?, if it's completely okay with him to go into Iraq, in which there was no evidence at all of bin-Laden/ties with al-qaeda, then why can't he go into a region of Pakistan, not controlled by it's President, AND in which there is a good chance of bin Laden being in??????????????

Spread this information to everyone, thanks.

VOTE KERRY/EDWARDS 2004
 
Your telling us (in hindsight) why Bush shouldn't have gone into Iraq. We all know it was based on bad intelligence. The same intelligence which was shared by the rest of the free world. Your not telling me why I should vote for Kerry/Edwards. Because one person was wrong doesn't mean another person is right. This is especially true when that other person is on the record saying they would have done the same thing given the intelligence of the day.
 
Is this the reasoning behind your return?

:sexywink:
 
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StlElevation said:
i guess if i support bush im unintelligent. thanks.


I'm just going to bring up something interesting...not to offend but...


As my mom learned in her Ethics class at an area liberal college, generally democrats operate under the utilitarian idea, which means they rely more on emotions to make their decisions (in a nutshell). Republicans operate mainly under the contractarian idea, which means their decisions are usually based on logic.

just wanted to bring that up even though it's a little off topic...

can anyone say they at least see where this generalization comes from?
 
Blanket statements are always a bit off the mark for me. I think that's kinda saying that emotional people can't be logical and I don't agree with that. I think people that are very emotional and feel empathy for people etc can also be quite rational.

I can see where the generalization comes from and I don't think it's 100% wrong I just think it's hard to say ALL Democrates are one way and ALL Republicans are another.
 
FullonEdge2 said:
generally democrats operate under the utilitarian idea, which means they rely more on emotions to make their decisions (in a nutshell). Republicans operate mainly under the contractarian idea, which means their decisions are usually based on logic.

Logic like calling the War in Iraq a crusade?

Huh if that's logic i don't want to be called rational ever again.

Not everything you can learn in college classes is true ;)
 
May I just say that "Saddam Hussein was a bad leader" does not even begin to account for the crimes of the regime. In barbarity, not magnitude, in barbarity they were on par with the Nazi's and the Soviet Union. A bad leader would be someone who runs an economy into the ground or messes up social policy, Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. To brush aside this element with a token statement of dislike is a very easy way to dismiss intervention as a pointless imperial excercise that only brings death upon people who were living peaceful and prosperous lives.

I find the concept of leaving a regime like that in power when the opportunity to remove it with substantially less casualties presents itself the right choice - regardless of WMD or Terror Links - and I stood by it before the war and after. How many innocent lives are worth paying to uphold the status quo of having a dictator murdering tens of thousands and the international community at best sitting on their hands and at worst being complicit in the crimes?

Never
Ever
Forget

http://massgraves.info/
Visit this site and look over it well, war is horror - sometimes peace is too.
 
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I know, it is quite a blanket statement. And I'm not trying to depict anti-war people as being illogical. But sometimes you have to look at the reasons behind your statements.

Klaus'es statement is a good example. That said, I don't think many Democrats would argue this. The "liberal" teacher for this class isn't offended that he's basically calling himself illogical, he just doesn't know why anyone would think like a Republican. That's all.
 
Classical utilitarianism actually has nothing to do with emotion. Utilitarianism came out of Britain during the Enlightenment, formed largely by the political thinkers and philosophers Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill.

Both Bentham and Mill, despite some differences between them, both believed that the calculus behind ethical decisions should be based on seeking the greatest good for the greatest number of people. Both Mill and Bentham, if you ever take the time to actually read their work, were incredibly rigorous and logical philosophers whose work is still studied and argued today. I don't think that Democrats or Republicans have franchise on logical or illogical decisions, on utilitarianism or contractarianism (Rousseau, "social contract," if this means anything to anyone). While utilitarianism is sometimes associated with liberalism, classical liberalism has little do with the Democratic Party as we know it today (just as classical conservatism has little do with today's Republicans). Utilitarianism can be just as well used to justify decisions made by conservatives as liberals.

I was a philosophy major in college, so you can't b.s. philosophy in this forum. ;)
 
A_Wanderer said:
May I just say that "Saddam Hussein was a bad leader" does not even begin to account for the crimes of the regime. In barbarity, not magnitude, in barbarity they were on par with the Nazi's and the Soviet Union. A bad leader would be someone who runs an economy into the ground or messes up social policy, Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator responsible for the deaths of millions. To brush aside this element with a token statement of dislike is a very easy way to dismiss intervention as a pointless imperial excercise that only brings death upon people who were living peaceful and prosperous lives.

I find the concept of leaving a regime like that in power when the opportunity to remove it with substantially less casualties presents itself the right choice - regardless of WMD or Terror Links - and I stood by it before the war and after. How many innocent lives are worth paying to uphold the status quo of having a dictator murdering tens of thousands and the international community at best sitting on their hands and at worst being complicit in the crimes?

Never
Ever
Forget

http://massgraves.info/
Visit this site and look over it well, war is horror - sometimes peace is too.


Arite I agree, Saddam did kill thousands of his own people. However, before we went to war, Bush never stated that this was the reason, he said we went because of WMD's and terror links. So we can't have a president who lied to us before going to war, regardless of what he lied about. I mean the capture of Saddam Hussein was a good thing. But was it worth going into Iraq at the time? NO! Because right now the two biggest threats to the United States are terrorists and nuclear weapons, NEITHER of which Saddam had. So what was more important was to attack those countries that did have nukes and terror links (North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan maybe). Because the terrorists and nukes and these countries DO threaten the U.S. unlike Iraq. So ask yourself this: What is more important? To attack a country that has a dictatorship, OR to take out a country that can cause harm to millions of Americans? I'd go with the latter.

(Each nuke in North Korea can destroy big cities in the west such as L.A., San Francisco, or Seattle. If attacked by a Nuke, the city will instantly vaporize and everyone in a surrounding 40 mile radius will be killed, let alone the damage a nuke can cause to the earth's atmosphere. North Korea has 8 nuclear weapons, and wants more)
 
Not thousands, hundreds of thousands pushing into millions, and many more would be added to that list if Saddam had been left in power for another decade or two. I am not talking about Bush's reasons for the war; but you say that it was the total wrong thing to do, and as such you must accept that there is a severe cost to inaction. As must I accept that there are costs to taking action. There is no magic wand happy fun-time solution; either way people die and the situation is unstable - the important part is managing competing risks and ensuring long term security.

N-Korea and Iran are working to get nuclear weapons the existence is by no means guaranteed (yet), Saudi Arabia doesn't and Pakistan certainly does. Al Qaeda wants to topple the regimes in place in SA and Pakistan and replace them with Islamist ones - so these governments share a common foe, Iran is facing the fact that its younger generation demands reform and N-Korea is motivated by pure self preservation, Nuclear weapons guarantee that nobody would make a move against them.

After the fact we know that Saddam was using the oil for food program to prop up his regime. The UN was directly involved in this scam where 11 billion dollars would up in the hands of Saddam. Directly assisting this proud effort were some of the very respectable members of the security council. The entire WMD issue was a diversion from the real game, Saddam being shit scared of Iran - he poured so much effort into bluffing the Iranians he convinced the entire world that he was hiding WMD, he still retained the expertise and the programs - production could be restarted if he gave the order and that was the danger. If inspections continued and they found nothing then sanctions would have to be removed. The regime would be free to restart its weapons programs (the intention which his chief WMD scientist made clear) and the entire situation would be a whole lot worse - that would be the course of the UN solution; would you agree with it.

Iraq under Saddam was not a haven for Islamist terrorists however right now in the country you have these groups fighting. A second front has been established in the War on Terror which not only eliminated the persistent threat posed by Iraq but also enables the elimination of the Islamist ideology by providing an alternative to those suffering under despotism. Realpolitik at its best, truly.


Secondly, do you advocate now or would you support in future preemptive war with North Korea, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Iran?
 
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1) UN inspectors said he did not have WMD's (you know, what US/British claimed in front of the world in Security Council)

2) David Kay said the same and resigned

3) Just now, I read the person who was in charge after Kay left gave out a report that, again, says, there were no WMDs (since 1991, even) and I think also dismissed any Iraq ties with Al Qaeda

4) I read Rumsfeld said a few days ago Iraq had no connections with Al Qaeda or WMDs

5) Any Iraq connection with 9/11 was dismissed by Bush himself

I'd say that pretty much blows away any "arguments" on Iraq being a part of anti-terrorism war.
 
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U2girl said:
I'd say that pretty much blows away any "arguments" on Iraq being a part of anti-terrorism war.

Do an ounce of research and discover how much open support Iraq gave to Hammas for the terrorist bombings in Israel.

Take a look at the current influx of militants into Iraq. Do you honestly believe that if these individuals were not fighting in Iraq, they would be living peacefully somewhere else??
 
nbcrusader said:


Take a look at the current influx of militants into Iraq. Do you honestly believe that if these individuals were not fighting in Iraq, they would be living peacefully somewhere else??

So because they came to us, is now being used as an excuse.:huh:

The same could be said for anywhere in the Middle East, we could occupy any place there and militants would be coming into fight.
 
nbcrusader said:


Do an ounce of research and discover how much open support Iraq gave to Hammas for the terrorist bombings in Israel.

Take a look at the current influx of militants into Iraq. Do you honestly believe that if these individuals were not fighting in Iraq, they would be living peacefully somewhere else??

Believe it or not, I know Iraq supported Palestinians. I also know US supports Israel's policies towards Palestine which aren't exactly helping that situation either - and don't tell me civilian casualties ONLY happened to Israelis in that conflict.

(This had nothing to do with US' rationale for going to Iraq, btw. Also, do not equal what Palestinians or Chechens or people from N. Ireland are doing with what Al Qaeda is doing.) Besides, US has such a long history of supporting harsh regimes they really should not be the judges on that.

Bush promised a side by side peaceful life for Israel and Palestine - and what happened? Violence didn't stop, and there is a huge wall being built.

:confused: Do you honestly believe the militants in Iraq would be there even if US didn't come in? As far as I know, there was none of that before.
 
U2girl said:

:confused: Do you honestly believe the militants in Iraq would be there even if US didn't come in? As far as I know, there was none of that before.

I don't and it was one of my arguments that for the United States this was posisitve because it created a front in a frontless war.
 
Actually, it's the kind of war that can have a front anywhere - and I don't see how opening up a new trouble spot in possibly the most tense area of the world is good.
 
U2girl said:
Believe it or not, I know Iraq supported Palestinians. I also know US supports Israel's policies towards Palestine which aren't exactly helping that situation either - and don't tell me civilian casualties ONLY happened to Israelis in that conflict.

Are you suggesting that Hamas represents "acceptable" terror? Is there any justification for Saddam's support of Hamas?

If sadam's support of Hamas was done in the open, do you even ponder what was being done by Saddam in the shadows???
 
U2girl said:


(This had nothing to do with US' rationale for going to Iraq, btw. Also, do not equal what Palestinians or Chechens or people from N. Ireland are doing with what Al Qaeda is doing.) Besides, US has such a long history of supporting harsh regimes they really should not be the judges on that.


Seriously, you hate the US, admit it. :(

If you are implying that the US never mentioned the link to Hamas before the war, then you clearly have not been paying attention.

As for long history's of (Insert WOrds HEre) ____________ I guess we can exclude most of the world from being the judges of everything.

:ohmy:
 
U2girl said:


Believe it or not, I know Iraq supported Palestinians. I also know US supports Israel's policies towards Palestine which aren't exactly helping that situation either - and don't tell me civilian casualties ONLY happened to Israelis in that conflict.

(This had nothing to do with US' rationale for going to Iraq, btw. Also, do not equal what Palestinians or Chechens or people from N. Ireland are doing with what Al Qaeda is doing.) Besides, US has such a long history of supporting harsh regimes they really should not be the judges on that.

Bush promised a side by side peaceful life for Israel and Palestine - and what happened? Violence didn't stop, and there is a huge wall being built.

:confused: Do you honestly believe the militants in Iraq would be there even if US didn't come in? As far as I know, there was none of that before.


Many are in the US are satisfied with US policy in the MidEast, and many are not.

I agree it is going the wrong direction.

It is only a matter of time before Israel is in serious trouble.

Bushes policies are dangerous for Israel long term interest.

U2girl you are right
the American people would not have supported Iraq War and paid the price we have only as a surrogate for Israel.
 
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