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Old 01-03-2008, 03:14 PM   #21
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but most importantly... DIVINELY introduced into this world.

seriously though, when did monarchs around europe stop believing that to be the case?
In "Germany" in 1077 after the walk to Canossa, of sorts.
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:16 PM   #22
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To make an oath to just the country of Canada doesn't make any sense
As an American, I'm entirely indifferent to the specifics of how your Oath of Citizenship is worded. But I don't understand why (hypothetically) amending the procedure so as to swear allegiance to the country itself would inherently "not make any sense." When a new US citizen takes our Oath of Allegiance, that is precisely what s/he swears allegiance to--"the Constitution and laws of the United States of America." Not the person of the President or any other individual. Why would that be nonsensical?
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:18 PM   #23
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As a brit i feel nothing for canada, so if they decided to go their seperate ways it could not bother me however Auz is an entierely seperate issue.
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:33 PM   #24
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As an American, I'm entirely indifferent to the specifics of how your Oath of Citizenship is worded. But I don't understand why (hypothetically) amending the procedure so as to swear allegiance to the country itself would inherently "not make any sense." When a new US citizen takes our Oath of Allegiance, that is precisely what s/he swears allegiance to--"the Constitution and laws of the United States of America." Not the person of the President or any other individual. Why would that be nonsensical?

Thank you for expressing that better than I could have.

I do not feel that British Monarchy encompasses all that Canada is, and I don't feel that they are inherently the same when it comes to a Canadian Identity. While the Monarchy and Canada's ties to it are an integral part of a Canadian Identity, it is by no means the only thing that contributes to it.

I would love nothing better than to be able to swear allegiance to the Nation of Canada, and that I would observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen while taking my Oath of Citizenship.

I have no desire to swear allegiance to a guardian of this nation, however, by swearing allegiance to Canada as a Nation it would encompass many things, including the relationship with the monarchy.

It might be an Oath of Citizenship, however it would require me to swear allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors.

In my time here, I have fallen in love with so much more about this country than the Colonial influence on military, law, courts and government.



Oath - I swear (or affirm) that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, Queen of Canada, Her Heirs and Successors, and that I will faithfully observe the laws of Canada and fulfil my duties as a Canadian citizen.
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:40 PM   #25
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As a brit i feel nothing for canada, so if they decided to go their seperate ways it could not bother me however Auz is an entierely seperate issue.
No love for Canada eh?
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:54 PM   #26
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why OZ and not canada, vaz? just curious...
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:58 PM   #27
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if it was up to me, we'd have kept the red ensign. funny... it hasn't kept australia or new zealand from having their own culture or identity.
There's barking here every now and then for a change in the flag. I absolutely agree that your history is your history, it's vitally important and you shouldn't ever deny it or try to change it. I'm all for keeping the flag the way it is and recognising our 'British Empire' past in many, many other more meaningful ways, however:

a) Nations grow and evolve and I can't think of any good reason other than "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" as to why Australia couldn't/shouldn't have an Australian head of state, something I most certainly look forward to and expect to see in my lifetime (it very nearly happened almost 10yrs ago, but was pretty much sabotaged by our very conservative and very staunch monarchist prime minister of the time), and,

b) I think the idea of a monarchy is just utterly ridiculous in the 21st Century in any real terms. A strong historical link, yes. A mascot, yes. A tourist attraction worth billions a year, sure. None of those three though mean a thing when you are talking about the historical links between Australia and the UK. The link certainly isn't with the monarchy - something which I don't think anyone here under 50 has any identification with at all - and that constitutional link does not need to be maintained for the historical and symbolic links to remain.

But there's no need to rush or do it just for the sake of it, and most certainly no need to try and wipe what is a (the) key part of our history and culture aside. If the country naturally evolves that way, it makes perfect sense.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:04 PM   #28
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There's barking here every now and then for a change in the flag.
It seems to me that Australia's in absolutely no hurry to change its flag at least in part because of how it is Australianised, with the seven-point star in the bottom left, and the fact that besides the Aboriginal flag, there is no real alternative (and the Aboriginal flag seems just as divisive as having the Union Jack in the top left corner). However, I expect New Zealand to change its flag in my lifetime. Two reasons. Firstly, to avoid confusion with Australia - we've come a long way from possibly being involved in Federation. Secondly and more importantly, I think most Kiwis, especially younger ones like myself, identify much more with the silver fern flag. It is actually symbolic of New Zealand, whereas a bland flag with the Southern Cross and Union Jack doesn't do much for us. That's why I think it's important Australia has the seven-point star; there is no equivalent on the Kiwi flag, and I'm sure if there were a silver fern on it, the impetus to change would not be as considerable. Personally, if I had a flagpole, I would fly the silver fern without any hesitation. While our current flag may be representative of some of our post-colonisation history, I feel that the silver fern flag unites our entire history. Plus it looks damn good.

Which, getting back to the topic, makes me wonder how things work in Canada. To me, the current flag is very symbolic of the place. It makes me think of Canada in its entirety, not just the English or French or First Nations. I remember when I first saw the old one and it didn't evoke anything like that. But that's the impression of someone from the other end of the world who's never been closer to Canada than visiting Boston, so I'm curious as to how Canadians relate to both flags.

As for the monarchy, the entire institution strikes me as outdated, and the sooner Australia, Canada, and New Zealand become republics, the better. That doesn't mean any heritage will or should be lost, just that the monarchy's historical relevance has ceased to translate to present or future relevance.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:43 PM   #29
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I remember when I first saw the old one and it didn't evoke anything like that. But that's the impression of someone from the other end of the world who's never been closer to Canada than visiting Boston, so I'm curious as to how Canadians relate to both flags.
I think maybe this is a regional thing in Canada. I know people out in the Maritimes and Newfoundland see the Union Jack flying around a lot more than here. I can honestly say I've seen it maybe a handful of times in the 17 years I've lived in Ontario.

It's my view that most people really like the maple leaf. It's become a very recognizable symbol globally and although I know that there were lots of complaints when they first came up with the design (famously that the leaf is red so that means it's actually dead), but I would say it's probably nearly universally liked at this point?
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:22 PM   #30
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why OZ and not canada, vaz? just curious...
Dunno really, i just feel no love for Canada. I assume its because Britain discovered and create oz from scrach.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:23 PM   #31
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actually anitram, i believe a lot of quebecois didn't appreciate the design because it was red and white as opposed to blue and white.

red + white = england, you see...

i'm not making this up either, i did read this somewhere as an argument.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:27 PM   #32
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actually anitram, i believe a lot of quebecois didn't appreciate the design because it was red and white as opposed to blue and white.

red + white = england, you see...

i'm not making this up either, i did read this somewhere as an argument.
I think you're right, actually.

But Quebec will find fault with pretty much everything.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:28 PM   #33
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but I would say it's probably nearly universally liked at this point?
I love that maple leaf! I've been looking for a particular style for a while for a tattoo. Even my cousins that have fallen in love with Canada through regular visits keep a keen eye for the Canadian flag when they're at home or elsewhere on vacation and don't hesitate to start chatting to people about it. So simple, beautiful and recognizable.
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:34 PM   #34
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It's my view that most people really like the maple leaf. It's become a very recognizable symbol globally and although I know that there were lots of complaints when they first came up with the design (famously that the leaf is red so that means it's actually dead), but I would say it's probably nearly universally liked at this point?
I'm pretty confident that if I went around asking people what their favourite flag is, Canada's would appear in pretty much every top five. It's just below the Welsh and silver fern flags for me (and incidentally, my favourite version of the silver fern flag is similar to Canada's flag).

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Dunno really, i just feel no love for Canada. I assume its because Britain discovered and create oz from scrach.
40,000 years of Aboriginal history would take exception to your second sentence.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:17 PM   #35
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I think maybe this is a regional thing in Canada. I know people out in the Maritimes and Newfoundland see the Union Jack flying around a lot more than here. I can honestly say I've seen it maybe a handful of times in the 17 years I've lived in Ontario.

It's my view that most people really like the maple leaf. It's become a very recognizable symbol globally and although I know that there were lots of complaints when they first came up with the design (famously that the leaf is red so that means it's actually dead), but I would say it's probably nearly universally liked at this point?
That's true about Newfoundland - I see the Union Jack every day. Two prominent spots where I see it are in front of my university and in front of the CBC head office. Even our library is named after the Queen! Quite a few people fly the Union Jack where my parents live. Sometimes I even see houses that don't fly the flag of Canada at all - just Newfoundland's flag and the Union Jack. I don't really know why this is the case (and no, they're not Brits). Possibly it's because Newfoundland joined Canada much later than the other provinces? Some of the older generations here still feel very bitter about joining with Canada.

I, for one, love the maple leaf flag.

As for swearing an oath of allegiance to the Crown...it doesn't bother me. I find it completely absurd that someone tried to sue because he had to pledge an oath to the Queen. If he's making such a big deal over something as minor as that, he obviously doesn't realise what a privilege it is to be a citizen here. I obviously accept that some people are strongly against the monarchy, and I can understand why some would feel a bit resentful about the oath, but to SUE THE COUNTRY over it? That's ridiculous.

I'm going to be a full-fledged citizen of Canada in two years' time. I don't mind at all that I have to swear an oath to the Queen (even though my thoughts on the monarchy are mixed). At the end of the day, it will simply be an honour to be considered a citizen of Canada.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:40 PM   #36
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Unfortunately I don't feel enough home grown people know enough about the history they are a part of. That's why I want the Oath of Citizenship - swearing allegiance part, I take to be reflective of a Nation as opposed to a guardian.

I'd be having to swear allegiance to a guadian that most people know nothing about by virtue of having been born here.

I agree, the suing is ridiculous. I also still feel that if the majority of Canada feels there should be ties to the monarchy then they should remain. I myself just desperately want to take an Oath of Citizenship that includes swearing allegiance to Canada the Nation, including all the things that make Canada unique.
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Old 01-04-2008, 06:40 AM   #37
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Couple things:
  • I don't give a toss about the monarchy, as an English Quebecer/Canadian, and I doubt many Canadians do anymore
  • Separation in Quebec is a non-issue at the moment; the provincial government has been nurturing a burgeoning technology industry in the last decade as they figured out young people want jobs, not a separate country or an economic depression
  • There is still regionalism in Canada; Maratimers identify heavily with their culture, Quebecers with their varied heritage, uh, I'm sure Ontario residents identify with whatever culture they can scrounge up among the bureaucracy, and the prairie provinces and Vancouver can bugger off, so, yeah
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Old 01-04-2008, 07:34 AM   #38
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40,000 years of Aboriginal history would take exception to your second sentence.
Well Modern Oz from scratch then. The Australia we see today bears little to no reflection to its 40,000 year past tbh.
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Old 01-04-2008, 09:02 AM   #39
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But Quebec will find fault with pretty much everything.
lol
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Old 01-04-2008, 10:54 AM   #40
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there's a good reason why so many people in the west can't stand quebec, and it has nothing to do with us speaking english and them speaking french.
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