Question of the Day: Homosexuality

[Irvine511]

But isn't it a hinderance in a way? Personally, I would love to have children. How does a gay male have children of his own without having to resort to adoption? I mean it must be an obstacle or a "problem" at some to be a homosexual.

firstly, i think adoption is a wonderful thing, and while i understand the desire to have your "own" child -- and this surfaced recently when a lesbian friend of mine, who is legally married in Massachusetts, asked me if i would one day consider fathering her child ... lots to think about -- i don't understand the $10,000s of dollars that some straight spend in order to conceive naturally. when you think about it, how is this any more or less natural that being a homosexual? there are people who cannot conceive, are they unnatural?

anyway, should all the conditions in my life be right, i would very much consider adopting. i like kids, always have, and have a very powerful paternal instinct that being a super devoted uncle (i have a brother and sister) might not be enough.

you get to a good point, though -- what is a homosexual for? the best answer i can give is the following: to prove that there is more, much more, to human existence than reproduction.

here's a lovely quote that i've used before, but i'll repeat again:

"perhas it requires seeing one's life as the end of a biological chain, or seeing one's deepest emotions as the object of detestation that provides insight. but the seeds of homosexual wisdom are the seeds of human wisdom. they contain the truth that order is in fact a euphemism for disorder; that problems are often more sanely enjoyed than solved; that there is reason in mystery; that there is beauty in the wild flowers that grow randomly among our wheat."

 

[Lemon Grrrrrl]

That's what the natural animals do.

Cannibalism and killing others' offspring are also what natural animals do. Should those behaviors be accepted into society?

I suppose I'm not natural either - I'm happily married but my husband and I have chosen not to have children of our own. Should I be treated like a pariah as well? On the flip side of that, take someone who was born sterile and decides to use artificial insemination to have children - is that natural? Should those people be treated as pariahs?

I think society overthinks the golden rule a little too much. Just be excellent to each other and you'll be amazed to find out that being straight or gay really doesn't matter. As for gay marriage - well, crap, with a 50%+ divorce rate in the US among traditional marriages, you can't argue that the sanctity of marriage is threatened. We breeders are threatening the sanctity of marriage all by ourselves. I am completely in favor of gays getting married and being every bit as miserable as traditionally married couples.

People may not like it, but you are not the arbiter of nature. God is.

We most definitely like to think we are arbiters of nature - look at all the vaccines and medications we use to extend our lives. Look at the animals that are extinct or near extinction because we keep multiplying and taking their habitats away.


One of my favorite quotes about this subject was from an episode of "ER" - when Dr. Weaver's mother was berating her for her 'lifestyle choice', she responded, "Yes, I made a choice - the choice to not live a lie and deny who I am anymore!" It was a very honest moment about coming out.

 

[melon]

Cannibalism and killing others' offspring are also what natural animals do. Should those behaviors be accepted into society?

Psst...I was being sarcastic and trying to prove a point on people throwing around the word "natural" as if they know what they're talking about.

Melon

 

[neutral]

I want to play too!

My question: do you believe it is possible for a person to believe that homosexuality is inherently wrong and not be a bigot?

No.

 

[BAW]

My question: do you believe it is possible for a person to believe that homosexuality is inherently wrong and not be a bigot?

No.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Psst...I was being sarcastic and trying to prove a point on people throwing around the word "natural" as if they know what they're talking about.

Melon

I suppose I would be the "pople throwing around the word "natural" as if they know what they're talking about."

LOL



Anyway, what i was trying to explain in my other posts about how it could be a problem to be a homosexual is that my guess is that it is easier to be straight.

I wouldn't encourage a child of mine to become gay but I would definitely encourage him to be straight and if he/she is gay I would still loving and accepting but I would feel kind of bad for him in a way.

My question about having children is that there must be some joy to knowing that you fathered this creature and that within this baby your blood circulates. I'm willing to guess some gay male somewhere would want this and I was just wondering what he would do under that circumstance.

I feel I'm going around in circles but my main point is that it must be more difficult being gay than being straight.

 

[melon]

I wouldn't encourage a child of mine to become gay but I would definitely encourage him to be straight and if he/she is gay I would still loving and accepting but I would feel kind of bad for him in a way.

There's nothing to "encourage." It just is or it isn't. It's out of your control.

Melon

 

[Do Miss America]

I feel I'm going around in circles but my main point is that it must be more difficult being gay than being straight.

Well it is, but not for the reasons you list, it's more difficult due to people with opinions like yourself.

 

[Dalton]

**Note** I can't stick around to follow this up (birthday party), but .....


I am someone who believes that homosexuality is wrong, but have many strong, healthy, loving, open relationships with my homosexual friends. We talk about it when it comes up. A lot of the time we don't talk about it. My wife and I babysit their children, etc, etc.


I am just curious why so many of you believe that it is not possible to disagree with one another in such a way that you can still love and respect the other person enough to let them make their own choices?

That's my two cents for the moment. Sorry I have to go. Also, sorry if this sounds flippant in any way, I realize that this is a very painful subject around which terrible, terrible things have been said and done. Thanks Melon and others for sharing your experience.

Later.

 

[Dalton]

There's nothing to "encourage." It just is or it isn't. It's out of your control.

Melon

See, but isn't that the crux of the conversation? We have not definitive proof that homosexuals are born that way (we have no definitive proof there is a God either.....), I have friends who are sure they were born gay. I have friends that have transitioned out of a gay lifestyle and don't believe people are born that way.



I think the world would be a much better place if both sides could respect one another and try to understand one another better ....


Seriously I am leaving now .... must. have. beer.....

 

[Irvine511]

I have friends who are sure they were born gay. I have friends that have transitioned out of a gay lifestyle and don't believe people are born that way.

how did they "transition" out?

were these men or women? was there religious influence (i.e., the "exodus ministry")?

details, details.

 

[melon]

See, but isn't that the crux of the conversation? We have not definitive proof that homosexuals are born that way (we have no definitive proof there is a God either.....), I have friends who are sure they were born gay. I have friends that have transitioned out of a gay lifestyle and don't believe people are born that way.

They're bisexual. The operative phrase is "gay lifestyle." In other words, they ignore their same-sex attractions in favor of opposite-sex attraction. Bisexuals have that luxury.

Trust me. I feel nothing for women at all, and I never have. I don't need hetero society to reinvent the wheel and "discover" something I already know.

Melon

 

[deep]

**Note** I can't stick around to follow this up (birthday party), but .....


I am someone who believes that homosexuality is wrong, but have many strong, healthy, loving, open relationships with my homosexual friends. We talk about it when it comes up. A lot of the time we don't talk about it. My wife and I babysit their children, etc, etc.


I am just curious why so many of you believe that it is not possible to disagree with one another in such a way that you can still love and respect the other person enough to let them make their own choices?

That's my two cents for the moment. Sorry I have to go. Also, sorry if this sounds flippant in any way, I realize that this is a very painful subject around which terrible, terrible things have been said and done. Thanks Melon and others for sharing your experience.

Later.

You seem like a very decent person

Who does not intend any malice.


Let me ask a question.



If a person said to Jewish people their practices and belief systems are wrong
and their souls will not be redeemed.
Would you consider that to be bigoted?

 

[BAW]

Anyway, what i was trying to explain in my other posts about how it could be a problem to be a homosexual is that my guess is that it is easier to be straight.

Which is why I have to ask people who believe being gay is a choice, "why would someone choose to be gay, knowing they will face discrimination and judgement for their entire lives?"

I wouldn't encourage a child of mine to become gay but I would definitely encourage him to be straight and if he/she is gay I would still loving and accepting but I would feel kind of bad for him in a way.

You can't encourage someone to be straight any more than someone could encourage you to be gay.

My question about having children is that there must be some joy to knowing that you fathered this creature and that within this baby your blood circulates. I'm willing to guess some gay male somewhere would want this and I was just wondering what he would do under that circumstance.

I would guess that he would do what straight people who can't have kids of their own do...adopt or use a surrogate. And if you were to ask anyone who has adopted a child, they would be quick to tell you that genetics having nothing to do with how much they love that child.

 

[financeguy]

how did they "transition" out?

were these men or women? was there religious influence (i.e., the "exodus ministry")?

details, details.

There's was a song in England called "Sing if you're glad to be gay" in the 1980's. Anyway I read the singer since decided he was not gay but bisexual and got married to a woman. There was no religious factor involved as far as I am aware. I mention this merely in passing, however I happen to think the majority of people are bi-sexual to some degree.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

Crazy how the "open minded" people can't seem to accept that some people--for religious beliefs or whatnot-- think homosexuality is wrong and aren't bigots. I personally view it to be wrong, and I am certainly not a bigot. Anyone who says otherwise can go f*ck themselves. I have a couple gay co-workers whom I am friends with and I treat them just as I would treat anyone else. I could care less what people do behind closed doors, but what pisses me off is having all this shit shoved down my throat and basically being told "if you think what we're doing is wrong, your a bigot." For example, I was in Chicago a couple years back and there was a "gay pride parade," which it seemed that 50% of the people were acting like they were part of a freak show. Do they really think this is helping gay rights causes? Not a bit. This sort of thing is what's holding a lot of people back, IMO.

 

[financeguy]

I could care less what people do behind closed doors

Maybe you should have added something about 'political correctness GONE MAD' and about how some liberals are SO ILLIBERAL and INTOLERANT, etc, etc

Cliche alert!! Call the cliche police!!

 

[deep]

There's was a song in England called "Sing if you're glad to be gay" in the 1980's.

Tom Robinson of

Tom Robinson Band.

great live show

 

[Irvine511]

Crazy how the "open minded" people can't seem to accept that some people--for religious beliefs or whatnot-- think homosexuality is wrong and aren't bigots. I personally view it to be wrong, and I am certainly not a bigot. Anyone who says otherwise can go f*ck themselves. I have a couple gay co-workers whom I am friends with and I treat them just as I would treat anyone else. I could care less what people do behind closed doors, but what pisses me off is having all this shit shoved down my throat and basically being told "if you think what we're doing is wrong, your a bigot." For example, I was in Chicago a couple years back and there was a "gay pride parade," which it seemed that 50% of the people were acting like they were part of a freak show. Do they really think this is helping gay rights causes? Not a bit. This sort of thing is what's holding a lot of people back, IMO.

if it isn't a choice -- and no one believes it is -- how could it possibly be wrong? you can't compare sexual orientation to a specific behavior, like kleptomania. it isn't just about sex, it's about emotional attraction and attachment.

i think it's perfectly valid to think it's "gross"; i think onions are gross. thinking it's wrong, however, does little but find some small way for people to place themselves above another group of people.

 

[deep]

Crazy how the "open minded" people can't seem to accept that some people--for religious beliefs or whatnot-- think homosexuality is wrong and aren't bigots. I personally view it to be wrong, and I am certainly not a bigot.

If a person said to Jewish people their practices and belief systems are wrong
and their souls will not be redeemed.
Would you consider that to be bigoted?

 

[Seeking Adam]

Answer is NO

Seem to me that if it's OK for someone to say my sexuality is ""wrong", then it's also OK for me to say they're a bigot.

 

[diamond]

"Let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel."

Melon

i like that song

 

[indra]

Answer is NO

Seem to me that if it's OK for someone to say my sexuality is ""wrong", then it's also OK for me to say they're a bigot.

A guestion to those who think homosexuality is wrong, but don't think they are bigots. If you think a homosexual person shouldn't be offended that you think homosexuality is wrong (even if you are nice to that person), why are you offended when you are called a bigot?

 

[joyfulgirl]

My question: do you believe it is possible for a person to believe that homosexuality is inherently wrong and not be a bigot?

No.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

A good question, indra.

As for gay marriage - well, crap, with a 50%+ divorce rate in the US among traditional marriages, you can't argue that the sanctity of marriage is threatened. We breeders are threatening the sanctity of marriage all by ourselves.

I am just waiting for the day when this concept finally sinks into the heads of society in general. Until people get their own relationships figured out, I suggest they not run around trying to control other people's.

Originally posted by melon
I'm unsure if I want children at all, but I don't see "adoption" as defective or lesser. Apparently, that must be why gay couples are used very often as "foster parents" and have been for years.

The only issues we face are those imposed on us by straight society, which is seemingly incapable of accepting anything different from themselves. But, as I see it, that's not our problem; that's your problem to take care of.

. Same with Irvine's posts, too.

In regards to the whole thing about normality, personally, I don't think there is such a thing as normal. Everybody has something about them that others would see as "abnormal" or "odd" or "different", be it a mannerism, or the types of people they're interested in, or a belief, or a way of speaking, or a way of eating, or the way they dress, or whatever.

Also, in regards to it being natural, keep in mind that there have been documented cases of wild animals exhibiting homosexual behaviors. Now, seeing as that happens, do those who may believe it's a choice feel that those animals therefore chose to be that way? If the answer to that is no, why must it be any different with humans?

Angela

 

[martha]

Crazy how the "open minded" people can't seem to accept that some people--for religious beliefs or whatnot-- think homosexuality is wrong and aren't bigots. I personally view it to be wrong, and I am certainly not a bigot.

So I can think that being male is wrong, I can pass laws limiting men's access to certain rights, I can quietly encourage the persecution of men, I can openly declare that being male is against God, and I'm not a bigot?

Woo-hoo! Somebody elect me to Congress!!

 

[Axver]

I've a question. Don't construe this as support for either side - I'm not interested in entering this debate. Nonetheless, I was reading the thread and this question came to mind, so I thought I'd ask it.

Many people are personally opposed to sex outside of marriage, and divorce, but respect the rights of others to do both. I've never heard those people called bigots. How are they different from those who are personally opposed to homosexuality but respect the rights of others to be homosexual and believe people should marry whoever they like?

 

[Judah]

I've a question. Don't construe this as support for either side - I'm not interested in entering this debate. Nonetheless, I was reading the thread and this question came to mind, so I thought I'd ask it.

Many people are personally opposed to sex outside of marriage, and divorce, but respect the rights of others to do both. I've never heard those people called bigots. How are they different from those who are personally opposed to homosexuality but respect the rights of others to be homosexual and believe people should marry whoever they like?

I think it's equating "choice" (i.e. to choose to have sex outside of marriage or to choose to divorce) with something that's not a choice...it's a natural state of being (i.e. homosexuality). The comparison is unfair.

When people say sex outside of marriage is wrong, they're disagreeing with a choice someone's making. When they say homosexuality is wrong, they're disagreeing with someone's essense...basically saying their very existence is wrong. Sure, they can think they're not being bigoted...just very logical and even sometimes very helpful. Many of these people resort to the argument that homosexuality's "wrong," not in that moral way, just in that natural abberation way...you know, it's a disease. It can be cured. After all, there are only 10% of the people that have this disease...it's almost the same as left-handedness...that also is probably a genetic wonkiness that should be corrected because, let's face it, the world is mostly designed for right-handed people.

Jesus, all these hundreds of threads and thousands and thousands of arguments and still not one LOGICAL argument from people (not you Axver) who say homosexuality is wrong or gay marriage is wrong.

I don't know how melon or irvine have the patience.

 

[intedomine]

Homosexuality is natural because love and sexual desire is natural.

You don't choose to be gay and it comes as naturally as heterosexuality. It's just not as common.

Remember, just because it takes a man and a woman to reproduce doesnt mean that gay sex is pointless or not normal.


Sex is more about enjoyment than anything...

 

[all_i_want]

one thing that seems a bit strange to me is.. although everyone says its not a choice, and being a straight guy i wouldnt know anyway, what is the big deal if it WAS a choice?

think about religion. which religion you follow is your choice, and you should not be discriminated against because of your choice. so, if you choose to be gay, so what? i mean, some of you who are against gay marriage cause its not natural or something, i dont think that argument hold on its own - at all.

this is about the PERSONAL freedoms, no one cares if they think it is right or wrong, or natural or a choice, because what people do about their sexuality is nobody's business.

(i am just watching a documentary on MTV about gay couple's TRYING to get married, in boston, and there are all these old people on the streets protesting 'jesus against gays' or 'jesus says no'. idiots.)