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Old 08-28-2002, 11:54 PM   #21
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You know after reading Tyler Durdens post i am changing my opionin a bit.

Fuck this I as a citizen of the world want answers. I want a answer to the question everyone is asking. Give us hard evidence. A war on the magnitude that the US-Iraq qar qould be qould affect the whole world. My gas prices would go up, my friends would go to war and people will die. Why should we not have hard facts.

I am 99% sure Iraq has or is trying to obtain dangerous weapons. But some people arnt. Why should they not be convinced? You are very right who ever said that India could then attack Pakistan or China-Taiwan S. Korea-N. Korea. Will the US be opening a big can of worms. The US jumps into alot of situations trying to offer peace as a solution, they should take some of their own medicene.

I want a answer to my question the worlds question. I am sure we all think its happening but we want dont want to think its happening we want to know.

The only thing I nust critque of your post Tyler is this quote:

He would know that the day he sends a missile into Israel, or is linked to a dirty bomb going off in New York, is going to be his last day on earth. I don't think he's that stupid or suicidal.

He did send a missile into Israel and he might be linked to 9/11 he is still alive and thriving. I have no problem with a war on Iraq but it must be substaintated and a reason, a actual reason must be present.

Gees who would have ever thought someone could change someones mind in Free your Mind!!!
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Old 08-29-2002, 12:59 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonoman
The US jumps into alot of situations trying to offer peace as a solution, they should take some of their own medicene.
you don't think it's quirky that we offer peace as a solution either with threats of a severe bombing, amidst a severe bombing, or just after a severe bombing? yeah...it's not hypocritical or anything


i want to make sure that those who are not american posting in this thread realize that not all americans are convinced of the validity of a war in iraq either. we haven't seen proof, and we aren't getting very good propaganda (like diamond says, we have internet and the like now, so it makes the "brainwash your public" idea a bit more difficult) so many are still ill-convinced that a war is necessary.

i was chatting about this situation with my mom last night, she came up with a really good point:

if the u.s can go and pre-emptively strike iraq without concrete evidence of their having wmd's, what stops iraq from striking the us pre-emptively?
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Old 08-29-2002, 01:30 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by bonoman


He did send a missile into Israel and he might be linked to 9/11 he is still alive and thriving. I have no problem with a war on Iraq but it must be substaintated and a reason, a actual reason must be present.

Gees who would have ever thought someone could change someones mind in Free your Mind!!!
You mean the Scuds in the Gulf War? I know, but I meant a WMD, now, out of the blue, what they are afraid of. And there is no hard 100% link between him and 9/11 although I understand that making a link public, if they have one, may not be a good idea.

The point of my post before was, I would support the US if I thought there was a threat. But I can't see the threat, and Im not the only one. It seems only 5 or 6 people from the Bush Administration plus the hardcore Bush supporters in the US support it. But 98% of the other nations of the world don't. A big chunk of America doesn't. Not even all of the American Congress/Senate does. Why? If it was that serious, that it had to be dealt with a large scale war, and soon, and was as deadly a threat as Cheney said the other day, you'd think they all would know it and all would support it.
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:21 AM   #24
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Thats what i mean tyler, if the US had some hard evidence then the world would be behind them. I also think the US, Bush sont have concrete evidence but do have a preety good idea of whats going on.

Now i pose this question.

If the US has some info on weapons in Iraqand didnt do anything because they didnt have absolute evidence and Iraq bombs the US and kills 1000's and 1000's then do we turn and say why didnt we go after him? Or do we say well we were not sure beyond eveerypersons total satisfaction?
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:29 AM   #25
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abre los ojos.. see the Vanilla sky

Sorry... random title.

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

This book was writen 40 yrs ago.
Before CableNews.
Before Mass Media.
Before the Internet.

And if u read Hi-Bias post The Bush ppl do not think they r all high and mighty as they r finding out about the American resentment

DB9
Yes the book was written 40 years ago... Jacques Ellul's insight into society wouldn't happen if Aldous Huxley [author of Brave New World] hasn't referred scholars to this obscure French Marxist Catholic layman (most forefront intellectuals are Marxists,e.g. Baudrillard, Jameson)...

Now, to be honest, I haven't completely read Ellul's Propaganda... I'm reading his book Technological Society as a intro into Propaganda.

But given that it was 40 years ago, Ellul's statements couldn't be any more prophetic and real as it is now.

Before cable, mass media, Internet, you say?
Those are the very tools that propagada takes.
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:43 AM   #26
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the more i read here, and the more i hear out there, the stronger i feel about this issue.

btw, what kind of a democrazy allows someone into office when a different candidate had more votes?
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:08 AM   #27
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wink

Bear-
What type of Democracy, you ask?
The USA is a "Democratic Republic".
Again a display of your polictical obtuseness.:coooco:
Stick w RadioHead..that is our safest bet

Peace
Out-
DB9: :
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Old 08-29-2002, 01:20 PM   #28
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what are you talking about diamond?

i know what democracy bloody means, you dumbass. quit questioning my intel since you have yet to answer any questions we have presented to you.

but thats ok, you fit the follower role so well, your making dubya proud.

stop acting like a fool and start bringing something worthwhile to the table. if not, then stop coming to the thread and acting like an idiot.
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Old 08-29-2002, 01:32 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96
what are you talking about diamond?

, you dumbass.

but thats ok, you fit the follower role so well, your making dubya proud.

an idiot.
Bear-
Please stop calling me names
You may want to look up my "Duped By The Right/ Duped By The Left" thread if you wanted to know of my polictical openess.
And plez stop comparing Bush to Hitler.

thank u-
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Old 08-29-2002, 02:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zoomerang96

btw, what kind of a democrazy allows someone into office when a different candidate had more votes?
Why are you still asking this question after all this time? Wasn't our Electorial College system ever explained to you? Sarcasm perhaps?
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Old 08-29-2002, 03:47 PM   #31
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lemon meringue, we are being NICE in free your mind.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Meringue


Why are you still asking this question after all this time? Wasn't our Electorial College system ever explained to you? Sarcasm perhaps?
not everyone is from the united states. and i wouldn't punish people outside of the u.s by teaching them about the electoral college.


now, zoomerang. to answer the original question
Quote:
btw, what kind of a democrazy allows someone into office when a different candidate had more votes?
uhh...american kind of democracy. i can't remember exactly why the electoral college was introduced, i'll look into that for you. i'm not sure if you're familiar with the electoral college (though my guess is that you are) but basically, the states with more people in it have more sway, so the states like ooo i dunno...south dakota get the royal shaft in being represented ('cept now cos senator daschle is majority leader).

in the present time the electoral college makes no sense, and hopefully we will get rid of it before the next debaucle of an election.
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Old 08-29-2002, 04:07 PM   #32
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Re: lemon meringue, we are being NICE in free your mind.

Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly


not everyone is from the united states. and i wouldn't punish people outside of the u.s by teaching them about the electoral college.


now, zoomerang. to answer the original question

uhh...american kind of democracy. i can't remember exactly why the electoral college was introduced, i'll look into that for you. i'm not sure if you're familiar with the electoral college (though my guess is that you are) but basically, the states with more people in it have more sway, so the states like ooo i dunno...south dakota get the royal shaft in being represented ('cept now cos senator daschle is majority leader).

in the present time the electoral college makes no sense, and hopefully we will get rid of it before the next debaucle of an election.
Assuming that South Dakota has a fairly even distribution of Democratic and Republican votes, a South Dakotan's has more influence over the South Dakota electoral college than a Californian's vote has over the California electoral college, so that offsets California's edge in electoral college votes. (It is a shame that presidential candidates don't pay more attention to smaller states though.) (Then again, South Dakota has as many senators as California.) (Then again, Washington, D.C. has zero senators and representatives but still pays federal taxes.) (Then again, does a place that voted Marion Barry as mayor thrice deserve to have anybody in Congress?)

The more salient reason why the electoral college should be abolished is because a Republican's vote for President in, say, Massachusetts is completely worthless. (Ditto for a Democrat's vote for President in, say, Mississippi.)
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Old 08-29-2002, 04:31 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly

i was chatting about this situation with my mom last night, she came up with a really good point:

if the u.s can go and pre-emptively strike iraq without concrete evidence of their having wmd's, what stops iraq from striking the us pre-emptively?
This has been my reservation (and fear) all along. If the US is using an aggressive doctrine, what prevents Iraq from using the same doctrine. I fear, but I will not be surprised, that when Bush and Rumsfeld are increasing their threat to Iraq, Saddam will eventually start to attack US locations (as in terrorist attacks). This will be the result of copying the US doctrine (strike first before they can strike you) coupled with a feeling of being threathened.

When (not if, in the present situation) that attack comes (so as in Iraq being the first aggressor), then the US will get support for a war on Iraq (as the US got attacked first), but until then I think most of the other countries will adhere to the convention (whichever it was) not to attack countries without being attacked first. More and more countries are openly against a pre-emptive war on Iraq (Germany, France, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and there will be a governmental crisis in the UK should Blair pledge his support).

Marty
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:02 PM   #34
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this worries me

Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn

and there will be a governmental crisis in the UK should Blair pledge his support

Marty
yeah, rule of thumb, when your best friend disapproves, it's just a bad idea. if we had the uk's support, the situation would change a bit, but not having their support makes me nervous.
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:46 PM   #35
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Big Grin sorry if i was crabby

Maybe I should have mentioned this instead. America is not a Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic.

A Republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of (1) an executive and (2) a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation, all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create (3) a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize (4) certain inherent individual rights.


I hope that was informative.
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Old 08-29-2002, 05:53 PM   #36
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Re: sorry if i was crabby

Quote:
Originally posted by Lemon Meringue
Maybe I should have mentioned this instead. America is not a Democracy. It is a Constitutional Republic.

A Republic is a form of government under a constitution which provides for the election of (1) an executive and (2) a legislative body, who working together in a representative capacity, have all the power of appointment, all power of legislation, all power to raise revenue and appropriate expenditures, and are required to create (3) a judiciary to pass upon the justice and legality of their governmental acts and to recognize (4) certain inherent individual rights.


I hope that was informative.
Very informative
re #4..does that allow Bear to call nice folk names?


DB9
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Old 08-29-2002, 07:55 PM   #37
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wink

diamond, and others...i know what your electric co collage of things means. i just dont know hot to spell it off hand...

i know you have that too...its all that was ever on the news at the end of 2000.

diamond, i havent been comparing bush to hitler since the first post.

thanks to everyone for pointing that out in goodwill, but i do understand the system, and i also understand that the system is stupid.

but hey, its not like canadas system is perfect, and its not an easy task to create a perfect one either.
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Old 08-29-2002, 08:48 PM   #38
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A liberal called a conservative a name! That is offensive!!!

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Old 08-29-2002, 09:06 PM   #39
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diamond, welcome to the nicer fym

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Very informative
re #4..does that allow Bear to call nice folk names?


DB9
does it allow diamond to call nice folk names? let's work on being nicer diamond. if you have a problem with the issue being discussed, please discuss the issue, not the perceived merits of the person posting it. thank you.

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Old 08-29-2002, 10:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
A liberal called a conservative a name! That is offensive!!!

Thou tottering spur-galled skainsmate.
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