prior knowledge of September 11th, 2001

[kobayashi]

i know this is not going to go over well. this is a very sensitive issue with all of us, i would think, and understandably so. but this is gaining force within a surprisingly mainstream media. some of you might ask me why post it if it's stupid, well i feel when something garnishes this much attention from the mass media it is worth investigating and finding some value perhaps. in short, i ask you not to flame me if possible. however if you still feel the need do so

at face value i do not agree with what is contained within these articles. i have read very little on this subject so would not want to make any firm inferences from my limited knowledge. what i have read seems forced, stressed and entirely implausible.

BUT a fair amount of it is coming from fairly reputable media organizations. though they are of course not to be believed at all costs, the issue does seem to be gaining currency with media consumers.
many of these beliefs seem to be based on the fact that former President G Bush now sits on the Board of the 11th largest weapons manufacturer in America, obviously a position which would benefit from the occurance of a war, as reported by the WSJ. BBC Newsnight reports the White House orders the FBI to back off in it's investigations into the bin Laden family. I won't continue here but other media outlets like The Guardian, the L.A. Times, SAPRA(an Indian wire service), Reuters, Le Figaro, MSNBC all contribute to some extent.

this is of course a wild idea. and just upon a cursory evaluation i alone can spot many holes. are all these media outlets just bending to public desire for scandal?
is congresswoman mckinney committing political suicide by being the only one to publicly press these issues? does anyone actually agree with any of this stuff or read enough to form a properly based opinion, if they feel the need?
anyway here are the links:
a 'timeline' of 'events'
global research

then there is the further-than-far-flung idea that flight 77 fell just short of the pentagon and coincided with an explosion at the pentagon which caused it to partially collapse.
i realizesweet liberty is in no way a reputable media source but the piece is made up mainly of cnn quotes.
and of course a counter point

any thoughts or am i just disturbing what should be left alone?

[This message has been edited by kobayashi (edited 05-04-2002).]

 

[Se7en]

It's an intersting topic, no doubt about that. However, Just as you I am not well enough informed on what has been going on to form an educated opinion.

Perhaps someone here has some more info on all of this...

------------------
Rock 'N Roll is the sound of revenge.

 

[z edge]

Well
I didn't bother reading your links.
If you are implying at all that President George H.W. Bush has anything to do with 9-11, stop now please. I mean even if you are just posting something that is not your own opinion, but want to post it for whatever reason it is not a good idea.

 

[kobayashi]

Originally posted by z edge:
I mean even if you are just posting something that is not your own opinion, but want to post it for whatever reason it is not a good idea.

i think i pretty clearly said in my post z edge that is not my opinion.
however, i see no problem in bringing in outside opinions and looking for reactions to them. as off the wall as these opinions seem to be to me and virtually if not all here i am sure, there is some real attention being given to them, hence my post. if it were not for the mainstream media coverage i would not have brought it up.

 

[Danospano]

ZEdge, why do you not want anyone to say that? Hypothetically, if it was true that Dubya knew in advance would you still want to cover you're ears? I'm not trying to hostile, I'm just wondering why you want to shut off debate about the issue?

-Dan

 

[z edge]

Koby and Danno,
I didn't mean to assume it was your opinion (Koby) as I read your post twice before replying the first time. However, I see I did anyway so sorry for that.

Here's my thoughts about this though, and why I would rather not see it here.

Back in 93 when Bill Clinton first took office, some jackass in a prominent position in my unit made a really stupid statement in front of his subordinates.

Within a couple of days, the unit was crawling with secret service asking all types of questions and things got pretty intense for a while. And this was over a comment that really wasn't threatning, but the perception of it was.

Before you laugh at me too hard let me explain I only stated what I did earlier in the best intrest of the forum as a whole, and would not want to have scrutiny from outside sources affecting this place. And my worries are not from what either of you have posted, rather what might occour 20-30 posts form now hypothetically speaking.

I guarantee you that some of the credible news sources who may participate in this (once again, i did not read them so I am only speculating) could be faced with some type of "attention" that they may not welcome. They are famaliar enough to the general public to fall under a protective umbrella, of some small extent, one that this forum could not enjoy.

In all good faith gentlemen, I am not trying to debate or bicker, please accept my thoughts as sincere and relevant.

 

[meegannie]

Originally posted by kobayashi:

then there is the further-than-far-flung idea that flight 77 fell just short of the pentagon and coincided with an explosion at the pentagon which caused it to partially collapse.

How can anyone even claim this when people actually witnessed the plane flying into the Pentagon? Several of the buildings in Arlington have a good view of the Pentagon.

 

[z edge]

In Koby's defense, he did say further-than-far-flung idea, but still?

 

[meegannie]

Originally posted by z edge:
In Koby's defense, he did say further-than-far-flung idea, but still?

I didn't mean for that to sound like it was directed at him.

Sorry, Koby!

 

[brettig]

z edge, do u really think this sort of stuff will have the Secret Service out to shut this place down?

 

[martha]

Originally posted by z edge:


I guarantee you that some of the credible news sources who may participate in this (once again, i did not read them so I am only speculating) could be faced with some type of "attention" that they may not welcome. They are famaliar enough to the general public to fall under a protective umbrella, of some small extent, one that this forum could not enjoy.

What Koby posted was not a threat against anyone; he was simply asking questions. I hate to think that asking questions is perceived as the same as making a threat. If it is, then we all need to keep asking questions.

As for the allegations, I think they're bullshit.

------------------

You have fairly generic bunions. --my podiatrist, 4-11-02

 

[meegannie]

I think all the conspiracy theory stuff gets a little out of hand sometimes.

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by brettig:
z edge, do u really think this sort of stuff will have the Secret Service out to shut this place down?

Well, I hope not, but my experience is that they would at least take intrest in this kind of thing, at the original source. And follow it to all of the leads and the sites who show intrest in this.

I mean, look at the accusation, that will get intrest (at the original source)

Gosh, I hate to sound paranoid, besides the fact that I think it's crap, but lets not take this where we can invite this kind of trouble please.

 

[kobayashi]

well if flags are raised about this in CARNIVOR, or whatever the net scan thingamajiggy is called, and CSIS(that's canadian security intelligence service for those who don't know, and i've actually been talking to them about a career of all things, this may ruin that tho

) and the CIA show up at my door tommorow i'll be sure to have somebody post for me to let y'all know

seriously the only reason i post such is to see if anyone has read enough of it. if anything i have a greater interest in the media exposure part of it. but it is rare for someone like say the la times or bbc to pick up such an outlandish story without something firm.

once again please understand i do not believe any of this. i haven't read enough to understand and based on what little i have i'm relatively certain i don't want to.

 

[z edge]

Koby, with my current endeavours, they wanted to know what type of underware I wore in the 6th grade. So I hope you don't go through that, or do I?

I did draw a wonderful charcoal drawing of Reagan in 3rd grade, if I can find it soon I will send it to his son Michael Reagan, as a gift.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Liam Gallagher is a jerk. There - I said it.

 

[Zooropa]

Originally posted by meegannie:
I think all the conspiracy theory stuff gets a little out of hand sometimes.

Absolutly. Not everything has a sinister government plot behind it.

------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down.

Zooropa FTP

[This message has been edited by Zooropa (edited 05-05-2002).]

 

[missmacphisto]

It was widely reported that the CIA, FBI, and NSA ALL knew in advance that the attacks were going to happen. Yet oddly, nothing was done.
I strongly believe that the US government is at least partly responsible for what happened. They are as guilty as Osama bin laden.
I've talked to many people about this, and we all agree that we smell a rat. I'm not saying its Dubbya,and other than the 3 agencies i mentioned, I certainly am not informed enough to say who is and who is not also responsible, but there is something going on here...

------------------
Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert

Well tonight thank God it's them, instead of you...

[This message has been edited by Miss MacPhisto (edited 05-05-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
It was widely reported that the CIA, FBI, and NSA ALL knew in advance that the attacks were going to happen.

"Widely" reported? By whom?

 

[Danospano]

Z Edge: You're cowardness is sad. I don't think anyone living in America, "Home of the Free" should be fearful of the government just because they might rally behind an idea that doesn't fall within the clear of el presidente. I feel sorry for all those like you as well. I thought Americans were strong and full of pride? Am I wrong?

I for one wouldn't dismiss the idea of CIA, FBI, etc prior knowledge. Then again, I'm sure these government offices have hundreds of leads concerning terrorism. Just because one slipped through the cracks doesn't mean nothing was down beforehand. A fitting analogy would be like grocery shopping: You need to get milk, bread, soda, chips, celery, baking soda and another couple dozen objects. You go to the store, get everything, go home, and then realize that you forgot the celery.---Things slip through the cracks when you have tons of things to worry about. Of course, the US government has thousands of people worrying about fewer problems, so it does sound embarassing that they would ignore or choose to ignore the 9/11 attacks.

 

[gvox]

First off I think its totally ludicrous that anyone should have to curtail the exchange of ideas because of fear of repression or investigation by some nefarious governmental agencies. If you live on a military base, you might want to be careful what YOU write, but simply visiting a site that contains thousands of messages shouldn't warrant unwanted scrutiny. If it does than maybe you might want to consider the price of your 'freedom'??

Secondly, on the WTC. Of course the CIA, FBI and other governmental agencies knew that someone, most likely Muslim extremists, were going to try and take out the WTC again. They knew it since 1993. Did they know that it would happen Sept 11, 2001, and that the conspirators planned to fly jumbo jets into the complex? That is doubtful, or at least I have not heard any concrete info to this effect publicly stated. I DO remember, however, both CNN and MSNBC quoting an anonymous government source (I think FBI) not too long after the attacks to the effect that the government knew that something very big and horrible was planned for around the first week or two of Sept 2001.

So should the US have been on a high state of alert from Sept 1 on? Should they have already started the massive checks and security measures only implemented after the fact? Definately fodder for further discussion.

The bottom line is, a number of agencies of the US government got caught with their pants down on Sept 11. Just go back to the ease with which these terrorists did business and got flight training prior to their attack. It certainly looks like domestic security has a long way to go yet...

Is it safe to post my name?? Ah, Im Canadian, whadduIcare??? LOL

Gabriel


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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum

[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 05-06-2002).]

 

[what a bomb!]

My aunt happens to work for the Pentagon and she was fortunate enough to be in the medical building at the time of the attack but she still witnessed the plane crashing into the pentagon, she is a Naval captain and the plane crashed into the naval side of the building, and she lost 33 members of her staff, if it was not for the doctors appointment she would of been with them.

 

[martha]

Well said, gabrielvox.


Even for a Canadian.

------------------

You have fairly generic bunions. --my podiatrist, 4-11-02

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by Danospano:
Z Edge: You're cowardness is sad.

You know what, I don't care what you do or what you want to turn this place into. It's never stopped you before. You obviously missed my point, and are trying to twist it around to your own sick amusment.

And it is very nice of you to call me a coward after I referred to you as a "gentleman" (how stupid of me) earlier in this thread.

Why not just come out and say that George H. W. Bush manufactured this whole thing? Come out and say it instead of hiding behind posts where you can insult others who oppose this trash logic?

Quit hiding behind all of the wacko stuff thats out there that you post only to stir up trouble.


[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 05-06-2002).]

 

[Danospano]

Z Edge:

.... How did I twist your words around to create the illusion that you were a coward? You said it yourself with your "fear" of expressing unpopular ideas. That sounds cowardly to me. Maybe you don't want to admit you're a coward, but don't get defensive when you obviously, and might I add, proudly admit that you're afraid to question the government of the almightly United States of America. That is what you call a coward.
Here's the definition of "coward": "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."

And in reference to your claim that I have an agenda aimed at dismantling this website: WTF! If your wildest predictions were to come true I suppose you could blaim a radical thinker like myself for the website's demise, but you are trying to do the unthinkable by scaring them into silence.

I'm really angery right now! You want me to shut up? Huh? Is that what you're trying to do? Well, tough shit...you just made me louder.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

1. I agree with gabriel.

2. Given the evidence available, it seems mad to say that the U.S. government is as guilty as Osama B. Lad for the 9/11 attacks.

3. Dano, it is very common for people (at least the people I know) to take extreme offense at being called a coward. You're a fool if didn't see zedge's reaction coming. Be nice.

 

[V Nura]

Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
It was widely reported that the CIA, FBI, and NSA ALL knew in advance that the attacks were going to happen. Yet oddly, nothing was done.
I strongly believe that the US government is at least partly responsible for what happened. They are as guilty as Osama bin laden.
I've talked to many people about this, and we all agree that we smell a rat. I'm not saying its Dubbya,and other than the 3 agencies i mentioned, I certainly am not informed enough to say who is and who is not also responsible, but there is something going on here...

There is Lot of information that goes through those agencies every single day. Honestly...we should be glad that they do such a fine job on a daily basis. I'm sure they heard it was going to happen...but either did not see the threat as credible, OR...someone along the way didn't push the paperwork along fast enough. But to say that they or Bush...LET it happen.....is ridiculous. Personally...what happened on 9-11 was the fault of crappy airport security, and, poor preparation. The press likes to sell newspapers, and if they can spin a story to do it..they'd step over their moms to do it.

 

[Danospano]

I finally got around to reading the timeline posted at the beginning of this thread and I must say that the evidence doesn't point to any answers. If the information is unbiased and factual then there are a few shocking coinedences, but even those who believe in conspiracies are hard pressed to find any substanstive leads within that article.

Do I believe the government of the United States had something to gain by being attacked on Sept 11th? Yes.

Do I think our government chose to ignore intellegence in the hopes that we would be attacked? Yes

Do I think the President knew about it? Probably not. I have a feeling that his staff try to keep him in the dark just like they do with all common Americans.

If the government, any government, is honest with its populace there will never be perceived stability. We've seen it in Russia, China, Britan, Germany, South Africa, and yes, even in the USA. Their power comes from their ability to withhold the facts. Keeping the citizens in the dark, so that they don't get too angry. We seem to think that politicians are wholesome, patriotic idols, when in actuality they're just like you and me. They sin, they look out for their own careers and bankroles, and they will do anything to appear acceptable. We elect what we are, and those who get elected will do anything to ensure their place in history. Even if it means creating a national crisis designed to change the course of history.

We needed a war. We needed a reason to invest in military arsonal. It helped the economy and created jobs, right? How convenient....

until later, Dano

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Originally posted by Arun V:
...what happened on 9-11 was the fault of crappy airport security, and, poor preparation...

Actually, on September 11th passengers were allowed to carry small knives onto airplanes. In fact when my sister flew Swiss Air earlier in the year they sold Swiss Army Knives on the flight. Granted, airline securtiy was not, and still is not perfect but terrorist attacks on airplanes up unitl this point involved guns and bombs of some sort.

As for poor preperation, I don't know how to prevent crazys from using planes as missles. This was something that had not been seen before. While it is atrocious that it was able happen I don't know how it could have been prevented once the plane had been hijacked and the pilots killed, other than shooting the plane down. Reinforced cockpit doors, I know, but they were not an issue at the time.

It's difficult to be invunerable.

 

[z edge]

Originally posted by Danospano:
Z Edge:

.... How did I twist your words around to create the illusion that you were a coward?

you didn't; "Z Edge your cowardness is sad"-your words not mine

You said it yourself with your "fear" of expressing unpopular ideas.

This is twice btw (I'm counting).
Now, my concern which I spelled out previously is that I don't find it appropriate to insinuate Bush needed a war for popularity reasons, therefore his daddy helped him out. I don't find it funny or proper to blame a former President and possibly a current one for murder of many innocent people, especially based on propaganda. I also pointed out that in my personal experience something of a lesser comment was made, and the outcome was not welcome.

My only wish was not to go there folks, or rather lets not open up this website (that doesen't belong to us) to possible scrutiny from unwelcome sources.

That sounds cowardly to me.

This is #3

Maybe you don't want to admit you're a coward,

#4

but don't get defensive when you obviously, and might I add, proudly admit that you're afraid to question the government of the almightly United States of America. That is what you call a coward.

#5, and I said above and previously that I didn't find it proper, not that I was afraid

Here's the definition of "coward": "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."

Hmmmm, my dictionary says: "A person who wants courage to meet danger; a craven, a dastard-
(thats not really so bad, as they put it, I'm sure you meant worse)

Craven: "A coward, a weak-hearted, spiritless fellow"-
(okay, that one wasn't too pretty, assumably your favorite)

Well, I wonder if anything in my past, as in "official documents" might just contradict all of this? Oh, I just pulled out a stack of awards handed to me by the United States Army, why would they give all of these to a six-time coward?

*The Army Commendation Medal-awarded 3/27/96
*The Army Achievement Medal-awarded (4 awards)12/04/95, 12/04/94, 10/30/92, 10/30/91
*Department of The Army Certificate of Achievement-(5 awards) awarded 9/07/96, 8/10/96, 9/02/92, 7/28/92, 10/25/91,
*plus, awarded twice Conduct Medal(s), and Drivers/Mechanics Badge
*also qualified on many weapons/ weapons systems, EXPERT marksman on an M16 machine gun

BTW, the Army Commendation Medal starts off by reading (on the certificate portion): (awarded for)"FOR EXCEPTIONALLY MERITORIOUS SERVICE..."

MERITORIOUS and cowardness, coward, fear, cowardly, and afraid are not the same. Your dictionary should tell you that. Even a radical thinkers dictionary.

I forgot to mention that I have been in 2 buildings that have blown to bits by terrorist bombs (not with me in them), and I currently work in a building that should be considered a serious target.

I have been to many, many countries in war and peactime, had emergency landings when aircraft engines exploded, nearly lost my life on more than one occasion.

However Danno, considering that I never "ran away in fear" or went AWOL (absent without leave), it must have been all of that low pay or horrible chow that kept me around. Or maybe I just liked to serve my country since not everybody can. To give people the opportunities to sit on their ass and become militant radical thinkers.

And in reference to your claim that I have an agenda aimed at dismantling this website: WTF! If your wildest predictions were to come true I suppose you could blaim a radical thinker like myself for the website's demise, but you are trying to do the unthinkable by scaring them into silence.

No, if you read, those were not predictions but friendly advice.

And I have changed my mind too thanks to you. Lets get this topic as far as we can, the more people that see it the more laughable it will become.

I want to talk about "radical thinkers" too for a minute.
I think there are some great radical thinkers; past/present/future. Lets say our country was even founded on radical ideas, perhaps slaves being freed was radical to some.

But not all radical ideas were good either. Timothy McVeigh, Osama Bin Laden, David Koresh, to name a couple of people who had radical ideas.

I dunno, I would be afraid of THAT, not my government which some of them tried/still try to end.

I'm really angery right now!

huh? "angery" is not in my dictionary

You want me to shut up? Huh?

No keep talking, you'll prove yourself to almost everyone- all by yourself.

Is that what you're trying to do? Well, tough shit...you just made me louder.

Great thanks, have a wonderful day

-------------------------------
I'm not afraid
of anything in this world
there's nothing you can throw at me
that I haven't already heard



[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 05-07-2002).]