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Old 05-06-2002, 10:26 AM   #21
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First off I think its totally ludicrous that anyone should have to curtail the exchange of ideas because of fear of repression or investigation by some nefarious governmental agencies. If you live on a military base, you might want to be careful what YOU write, but simply visiting a site that contains thousands of messages shouldn't warrant unwanted scrutiny. If it does than maybe you might want to consider the price of your 'freedom'??

Secondly, on the WTC. Of course the CIA, FBI and other governmental agencies knew that someone, most likely Muslim extremists, were going to try and take out the WTC again. They knew it since 1993. Did they know that it would happen Sept 11, 2001, and that the conspirators planned to fly jumbo jets into the complex? That is doubtful, or at least I have not heard any concrete info to this effect publicly stated. I DO remember, however, both CNN and MSNBC quoting an anonymous government source (I think FBI) not too long after the attacks to the effect that the government knew that something very big and horrible was planned for around the first week or two of Sept 2001.

So should the US have been on a high state of alert from Sept 1 on? Should they have already started the massive checks and security measures only implemented after the fact? Definately fodder for further discussion.

The bottom line is, a number of agencies of the US government got caught with their pants down on Sept 11. Just go back to the ease with which these terrorists did business and got flight training prior to their attack. It certainly looks like domestic security has a long way to go yet...

Is it safe to post my name?? Ah, Im Canadian, whadduIcare??? LOL

Gabriel


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[This message has been edited by gabrielvox (edited 05-06-2002).]
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Old 05-06-2002, 06:23 PM   #22
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My aunt happens to work for the Pentagon and she was fortunate enough to be in the medical building at the time of the attack but she still witnessed the plane crashing into the pentagon, she is a Naval captain and the plane crashed into the naval side of the building, and she lost 33 members of her staff, if it was not for the doctors appointment she would of been with them.
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Old 05-06-2002, 07:24 PM   #23
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Well said, gabrielvox.


Even for a Canadian.

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Old 05-06-2002, 07:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano:
Z Edge: You're cowardness is sad.

You know what, I don't care what you do or what you want to turn this place into. It's never stopped you before. You obviously missed my point, and are trying to twist it around to your own sick amusment.

And it is very nice of you to call me a coward after I referred to you as a "gentleman" (how stupid of me) earlier in this thread.

Why not just come out and say that George H. W. Bush manufactured this whole thing? Come out and say it instead of hiding behind posts where you can insult others who oppose this trash logic?

Quit hiding behind all of the wacko stuff thats out there that you post only to stir up trouble.


[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 05-06-2002).]
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Old 05-06-2002, 09:21 PM   #25
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Z Edge: .... How did I twist your words around to create the illusion that you were a coward? You said it yourself with your "fear" of expressing unpopular ideas. That sounds cowardly to me. Maybe you don't want to admit you're a coward, but don't get defensive when you obviously, and might I add, proudly admit that you're afraid to question the government of the almightly United States of America. That is what you call a coward.
Here's the definition of "coward": "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."

And in reference to your claim that I have an agenda aimed at dismantling this website: WTF! If your wildest predictions were to come true I suppose you could blaim a radical thinker like myself for the website's demise, but you are trying to do the unthinkable by scaring them into silence.

I'm really angery right now! You want me to shut up? Huh? Is that what you're trying to do? Well, tough shit...you just made me louder.
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Old 05-07-2002, 09:46 AM   #26
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1. I agree with gabriel.

2. Given the evidence available, it seems mad to say that the U.S. government is as guilty as Osama B. Lad for the 9/11 attacks.

3. Dano, it is very common for people (at least the people I know) to take extreme offense at being called a coward. You're a fool if didn't see zedge's reaction coming. Be nice.
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Old 05-07-2002, 10:19 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Miss MacPhisto:
It was widely reported that the CIA, FBI, and NSA ALL knew in advance that the attacks were going to happen. Yet oddly, nothing was done.
I strongly believe that the US government is at least partly responsible for what happened. They are as guilty as Osama bin laden.
I've talked to many people about this, and we all agree that we smell a rat. I'm not saying its Dubbya,and other than the 3 agencies i mentioned, I certainly am not informed enough to say who is and who is not also responsible, but there is something going on here...

There is Lot of information that goes through those agencies every single day. Honestly...we should be glad that they do such a fine job on a daily basis. I'm sure they heard it was going to happen...but either did not see the threat as credible, OR...someone along the way didn't push the paperwork along fast enough. But to say that they or Bush...LET it happen.....is ridiculous. Personally...what happened on 9-11 was the fault of crappy airport security, and, poor preparation. The press likes to sell newspapers, and if they can spin a story to do it..they'd step over their moms to do it.
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Old 05-07-2002, 02:06 PM   #28
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I finally got around to reading the timeline posted at the beginning of this thread and I must say that the evidence doesn't point to any answers. If the information is unbiased and factual then there are a few shocking coinedences, but even those who believe in conspiracies are hard pressed to find any substanstive leads within that article.

Do I believe the government of the United States had something to gain by being attacked on Sept 11th? Yes.

Do I think our government chose to ignore intellegence in the hopes that we would be attacked? Yes

Do I think the President knew about it? Probably not. I have a feeling that his staff try to keep him in the dark just like they do with all common Americans.

If the government, any government, is honest with its populace there will never be perceived stability. We've seen it in Russia, China, Britan, Germany, South Africa, and yes, even in the USA. Their power comes from their ability to withhold the facts. Keeping the citizens in the dark, so that they don't get too angry. We seem to think that politicians are wholesome, patriotic idols, when in actuality they're just like you and me. They sin, they look out for their own careers and bankroles, and they will do anything to appear acceptable. We elect what we are, and those who get elected will do anything to ensure their place in history. Even if it means creating a national crisis designed to change the course of history.

We needed a war. We needed a reason to invest in military arsonal. It helped the economy and created jobs, right? How convenient....

until later, Dano
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Old 05-07-2002, 04:10 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
...what happened on 9-11 was the fault of crappy airport security, and, poor preparation...
Actually, on September 11th passengers were allowed to carry small knives onto airplanes. In fact when my sister flew Swiss Air earlier in the year they sold Swiss Army Knives on the flight. Granted, airline securtiy was not, and still is not perfect but terrorist attacks on airplanes up unitl this point involved guns and bombs of some sort.

As for poor preperation, I don't know how to prevent crazys from using planes as missles. This was something that had not been seen before. While it is atrocious that it was able happen I don't know how it could have been prevented once the plane had been hijacked and the pilots killed, other than shooting the plane down. Reinforced cockpit doors, I know, but they were not an issue at the time.

It's difficult to be invunerable.
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Old 05-07-2002, 05:20 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano:
Z Edge: .... How did I twist your words around to create the illusion that you were a coward?
you didn't; "Z Edge your cowardness is sad"-your words not mine

Quote:
You said it yourself with your "fear" of expressing unpopular ideas.
This is twice btw (I'm counting).
Now, my concern which I spelled out previously is that I don't find it appropriate to insinuate Bush needed a war for popularity reasons, therefore his daddy helped him out. I don't find it funny or proper to blame a former President and possibly a current one for murder of many innocent people, especially based on propaganda. I also pointed out that in my personal experience something of a lesser comment was made, and the outcome was not welcome.

My only wish was not to go there folks, or rather lets not open up this website (that doesen't belong to us) to possible scrutiny from unwelcome sources.

Quote:
That sounds cowardly to me.
This is #3

Quote:
Maybe you don't want to admit you're a coward,
#4

Quote:
but don't get defensive when you obviously, and might I add, proudly admit that you're afraid to question the government of the almightly United States of America. That is what you call a coward.
#5, and I said above and previously that I didn't find it proper, not that I was afraid

Quote:
Here's the definition of "coward": "One who shows ignoble fear in the face of danger or pain."
Hmmmm, my dictionary says: "A person who wants courage to meet danger; a craven, a dastard-
(thats not really so bad, as they put it, I'm sure you meant worse)

Craven: "A coward, a weak-hearted, spiritless fellow"-
(okay, that one wasn't too pretty, assumably your favorite)

Well, I wonder if anything in my past, as in "official documents" might just contradict all of this? Oh, I just pulled out a stack of awards handed to me by the United States Army, why would they give all of these to a six-time coward?

*The Army Commendation Medal-awarded 3/27/96
*The Army Achievement Medal-awarded (4 awards)12/04/95, 12/04/94, 10/30/92, 10/30/91
*Department of The Army Certificate of Achievement-(5 awards) awarded 9/07/96, 8/10/96, 9/02/92, 7/28/92, 10/25/91,
*plus, awarded twice Conduct Medal(s), and Drivers/Mechanics Badge
*also qualified on many weapons/ weapons systems, EXPERT marksman on an M16 machine gun

BTW, the Army Commendation Medal starts off by reading (on the certificate portion): (awarded for)"FOR EXCEPTIONALLY MERITORIOUS SERVICE..."

MERITORIOUS and cowardness, coward, fear, cowardly, and afraid are not the same. Your dictionary should tell you that. Even a radical thinkers dictionary.

I forgot to mention that I have been in 2 buildings that have blown to bits by terrorist bombs (not with me in them), and I currently work in a building that should be considered a serious target.

I have been to many, many countries in war and peactime, had emergency landings when aircraft engines exploded, nearly lost my life on more than one occasion.

However Danno, considering that I never "ran away in fear" or went AWOL (absent without leave), it must have been all of that low pay or horrible chow that kept me around. Or maybe I just liked to serve my country since not everybody can. To give people the opportunities to sit on their ass and become militant radical thinkers.

Quote:
And in reference to your claim that I have an agenda aimed at dismantling this website: WTF! If your wildest predictions were to come true I suppose you could blaim a radical thinker like myself for the website's demise, but you are trying to do the unthinkable by scaring them into silence.
No, if you read, those were not predictions but friendly advice.

And I have changed my mind too thanks to you. Lets get this topic as far as we can, the more people that see it the more laughable it will become.

I want to talk about "radical thinkers" too for a minute.
I think there are some great radical thinkers; past/present/future. Lets say our country was even founded on radical ideas, perhaps slaves being freed was radical to some.

But not all radical ideas were good either. Timothy McVeigh, Osama Bin Laden, David Koresh, to name a couple of people who had radical ideas.

I dunno, I would be afraid of THAT, not my government which some of them tried/still try to end.

Quote:
I'm really angery right now!
huh? "angery" is not in my dictionary

Quote:
You want me to shut up? Huh?
No keep talking, you'll prove yourself to almost everyone- all by yourself.

Quote:
Is that what you're trying to do? Well, tough shit...you just made me louder.
Great thanks, have a wonderful day

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I'm not afraid
of anything in this world
there's nothing you can throw at me
that I haven't already heard



[This message has been edited by z edge (edited 05-07-2002).]
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Old 05-07-2002, 05:32 PM   #31
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ZEdge-
You
rock.
Thank you for serving our country.

Kobe-
Hindsight is ALWAYS a thousand percent.
And Dano-
WTF?
President Bush "probably"
didnt know? what are you implying?
Perhaps our polictical correctness policies have run amuck and left us sussceptable to these bastards, Dano. Aye?
Word.

DB9

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[This message has been edited by diamond (edited 05-07-2002).]
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Old 05-07-2002, 06:08 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by Danospano:
Z Edge: .... How did I twist your words around to create the illusion that you were a coward? And in reference to your claim that I have an agenda aimed at dismantling this website: Well, tough shit...you just made me louder.
Dano, he didn't twist your words at all, you called him a coward. You said, in talking to Z edge, "...your cowardice is sad". Also, z edge never said you were trying to dismantle the website. He said you were trying to stir up trouble. There's a difference.

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 05-07-2002).]
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Old 05-07-2002, 06:14 PM   #33
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Thanks 80's and Diamond
peace
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Old 05-07-2002, 07:35 PM   #34
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Calling z_edge a coward is far too extreme and, ultimately, unfair, Dano.

The main thing I have against radicals, is that they have radical notions. Z_edge is not only a well-balanced mind and a thoughtful being, but he is far from a coward, atleast, not the coward you made him out to be in your provocative posts. I don't see the point to them, except you trying to look for trouble.

z_edge was not cowardly in his posts, and your posts only served to provoke him.

Ant.
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Old 05-07-2002, 07:57 PM   #35
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I agree with Diamond, 80s, Anthony and Spiral_Staircase and, yes, z edge. The "cowardness" comment was inappropriate. Several friends of mine have served in the military, and their duties are/were far more risky than posting behind a computer screen.

And, incidentally, I do not think that our government knew in advance of the 9-11 attacks, although it would make for a great movie or David Koresh/Timothy McVeigh/Ted Kozinski or what-ever-goofball theory.

~U2Alabama
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Old 05-07-2002, 08:08 PM   #36
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having evidence that the attacks might occur...and knowing they will happen are two different things.

Z edge...thanks for serving our country, you are a true american. If I wasn't a wuss I'd do the same.
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Old 05-07-2002, 09:21 PM   #37
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Anthony, Bama, and Arun
Thanks for your support and kind posts. Those were extra kind words from you and I do appreciate that.

And I'm no hero either guys, I hope you understand that. I served in the military, like hundreds of thousands-heck millions of people do. I do bring it up from time to time, and on a public forum like this it alwasy causes me an inner conflict of sorts.

I know a lot of people in the military now-whether they realize it or not- are hurt by the fact that they stood for and protected their respective countries when stuff like 9/11 happened. Dosen't it seem like we fucking failed by allowing this to happen? I feel that way a lot. I bet the Bushes do too, probably Clinton as well.

How could you not, to some extent?

Well thanks again guys.
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Old 05-07-2002, 09:29 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Arun V:
There is Lot of information that goes through those agencies every single day. Honestly...we should be glad that they do such a fine job on a daily basis. I'm sure they heard it was going to happen...but either did not see the threat as credible, OR...someone along the way didn't push the paperwork along fast enough. But to say that they or Bush...LET it happen.....is ridiculous. Personally...what happened on 9-11 was the fault of crappy airport security, and, poor preparation. The press likes to sell newspapers, and if they can spin a story to do it..they'd step over their moms to do it.
I bet you also believe that Oswald acted alone

I WANT to believe that the government did not allow this to happen. I WANT to believe that there are no government conspiracies, and I'd love it if the government is as wholesome and pure and loving and just as perfect as you like to believe it is.*Pats poor innocent Arun on the head and smiles condescendingly*

You used to tell me that i was "too violent", and that you were a pacifist. You used to condemn the military. I had to defend them, and point out how wrong you were. I told you that one day, you would feel differently. I didnt know it would happen so soon, and i didnt know it would take the deaths of thousands of innocent Americans to wake you up. How sad.
Now you are a flag waver just like the rest of us, and sometimes even say postive things about the military. Wow. People change.
Glad to see you have, I just think it would be nice if you understood that loving your country is one thing. But blind devotion, is another.

Look...look what you've done to me...You've made me poor and infamous, and I thank you...

My name is MISS MACPHISTO...I'm tired and i want to go HOME...

"Well you tell...Bonovista,that i said hello and that my codename is Belleview" - Bono before opening night of Anaheim Elevation concert

Well tonight thank God it's them, instead of you...

[This message has been edited by Miss MacPhisto (edited 05-07-2002).]
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Old 05-07-2002, 09:36 PM   #39
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I've always been a flag waver....and just cos I make fun of the military gusy you like...doens't mean I dont' respect them.

I'm a flag waver now????


what happened when I gave Bono the american flag back in october??? What about my america appreciation thread back a few months ago????? I jumped on a band wagon??????.....I live in this country too...and I respect it. And in truth...I think I take offense to the fact that you question the sincerity of the love of my country

[This message has been edited by Arun V (edited 05-07-2002).]
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Old 05-07-2002, 09:43 PM   #40
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I'm not talking about the jokes. The jokes were...ok...Pissed me off, but thats not what i was referring to.
You seemed to hate the military, didnt even care much when those pilots were killed at Pt Mugu recently.
You dont care about the needy people in America. All you talk about is how great everyone has it here, and its only people in other countries who suffer. That doesnt really show love for your country, when you ignore and downplay the severity of the problems it has.
Ive heard you say other not-so-loving stuff about this country as well.
And the things you said about the military...offended ME greatly.


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