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Old 12-19-2002, 05:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Bonoman,

Your post in response to high bias came right before my response did, so I had not seen your post until I finished writing and posting mine.

The fact that US consumers buy nearly 2 Trillion dollars worth of goods is not something that can be swept under the rug. Allowing US consumers to buy all these foreign goods is a huge benefit to the global economy, and yes the USA does benefit as well.
The USA spends nearly 400 Billion dollars every year on essentially international security! Few countries come close to this level of spending even as a percentage of GDP. International Security is extremely important as it helps prevent anarchy and war and can protect regions and countries from the actions and moves of other countries. Without the international security and stability that the USA provides many regions of the world, discussions of and or actions to develop the third world would not be possible, because of the instability and war that would exist in several other countries and regions of the world.

There is no attempt to hide behind spending on the military. The attempt to narrowly define international aid as simply development aid is incorrect and un-objective. Military spending, free trade, and development aid are all important parts of international aid. I've tried to show you and others here the lack of military support that the USA recieves from countries like Canada. Canada needs to more than double its defense budget, perhaps triple it. The USA spends nearly 4% of its GDP on defense while a country like Canada spends only .9%. When it came to military action in Kosovo to prevent the slaughter of muslims by the Serb military, over 90% of the combat missions flown, were flown by the US military. If force is needed to disarm Iraq and bring it into compliance with 16 different UN resolutions passed under chapter 7 rules, the vast majority of the forces involved in combat will be US forces.

Guess who has the biggest weaponsindustry,...and somehow i do not have the feeling that all those weapons made this world a better place.

Why turned this discusion about aid to the third world into a promotion for the weapontraders. They need tractors not tanks, they need waterpumps no M16, they need respect, not patronizing.

And yes , i am grateful for the help from America in the second world war but in feel very pissed of when somebody use this to gain support. My Grandparents had to endure hunger, desease and worked hard to build my country.
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:23 AM   #22
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u forgot to say, "Read You"

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Old 12-19-2002, 08:49 AM   #23
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To bring this back to Dubyah - I think he's all talk about Africa as stated in this article in the News

"But U.S. funding is uncertain; according an editorial Monday in The New York Times, Bush vetoed the appropriation containing this years first payment, and Senate Republicans killed a bill agreed on unanimously that would have provided $4 billion over two years to fight global AIDS. "

If our military budget is 369 billion or so , 3 biilion should be taken out if it and used for Africa.

And yes the US percentage of aid is shameful and should be increased and while we are at it maybe we can pay our UN dues. That we haven't is disgraceful.

I'm curious if STING2 has ever disagreed with anything the Republican's, or our government under them, or the military has done.

By the way WTF is with this Star Wars defense bullshit again. I thought that was a dead horse under Reagan?
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Old 12-19-2002, 09:56 AM   #24
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Just a few random thoughts. Why is military spending being brought in as a part of humanitarian aid? I am going to venture the guess that the rest of the world is highly unlikely to consider US military intervention as altruistic and peace-loving. If anything, it is seen as meddling and directed towards maintaining and protecting our business interests, not a desire to maintain impartial justice. Just to use one example that is close to me personally, in Indonesia the Suharto regime was given the go-ahead to take over by force the island of Timor by Kissinger with the implicit understanding that the US would look the other way. Indonesia was a desirable ally in the SE Asian front of the Cold War. So rather than enforce "peace" the US was willing to sacrifice innocent lives to maintain national interests. And that is just one example. Too bad for the people of East Timor that they weren't situated over a field of oil. Perhaps it should also be noted that during Suharto's governing, millions of people were killed, millions of Indonesian citizens, and the US never batted an eye or made a move to depose this dictator. Why the double standard?

Quite frankly, to expect the rest of the world to look on US military intervention purely as a form of "humanitarian" aid when both the motives and the methods have so often proven to be anything but even-handed is naive. The cynicism is well-founded, and even if not always proven to be correct serves as a legitimate and necessary restraint on the most powerful nation in the world abusing its position.

The idea that the rest of the world should be grateful for the great consumption power of America is another topic in and of itself, but perhaps later I will have time to comment on "free" trade and the imbalances within the international monetary and trading system. Needless to say, I would argue that our immense appetite for cheap goods and willingness to use double standards in tariffs has only contributed to the worsening of third world economies.
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Old 12-19-2002, 10:24 AM   #25
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Bethany-
You always write brilliant well thought posts.
We dont always agree but your ideas are always articulated well.

That said I guess the thinking of the "ends justifying the means" is prolly the cold reality here.
The older I get, the more Im becomning uncomfortable w/this mindset.

Merry Christmas-

Dave


ps-
isnt GW sexy?
thank u
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Old 12-19-2002, 01:27 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Bethany-
You always write brilliant well thought posts.
We dont always agree but your ideas are always articulated well.
dare I ask on what part you do not agree?
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Old 12-19-2002, 02:43 PM   #27
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no..
Merry Christmas too u as well Salomehead
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:20 PM   #28
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Rono,

Well until the collapse of the Soviet Union, it was the Soviet Union that had the largest weapons industry. But today it is the USA and having a large and strong military helps to deter war in many different area's on the planet. The USA had a very small weapons industry and international presense during the first 50 years of the 20th century. The partial result of that was the two most destructive wars in the history of the planet. Low military spending and isolationism are not ways to prevent global crises or conflict.

Certainly the third world needs strong level of development aid, but if the global community were to collapse into anarchy and war, aid to the poorest countries would never happen. Security is extremely important and the USA has taken on most of the burden in providing this to many area's of the world.

Its not just the Second World War or the Marshal Plan, its defending Western Europe for 40 years from the Warsaw Pact and providing nearly all the military force that stopped the fighting in Bosnia in 1995 and Kosovo in 1999, just to name a few things. How many people in Kosovo in March 1999 were hoping for tractors and waterpumps? They wanted SECURITY! Security that the European countries failed to provide them! It was the USA that got NATO to launch the war that stopped the Serb slaughter and abuse of Muslims in Kosovo. 90% of the combat missions flown against the Serbs were done by USA aircraft.

You refuse to see the value of international security and the level of work the USA does to provide this on a daily basis. You cannot sweep international security under the rug as not being important. Without global stability and security, sustainable development would never be possible in the third world.
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Old 12-19-2002, 06:36 PM   #29
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Scarletwine,

It is disgraceful that 90% of the air sortie missions flown by NATO to stop Serb slaughtering Muslims in Kosovo in 1999 were flown by the USA. Where the hell is the support from the 18 other countries that make up NATO? Several NATO nations contributions to defense and global security are disgraceful.

I agree the USA needs to increase its level of development aid and pay its UN dues, but it is not shameful in light of the other things the USA does for the international community.

For your information, I have disagreed with a lot of Republican policy on such domestic issues like gun control and occasionaly on taxes to name a few. Just ask Achtung Bubba.

I have disagreed with several things the military has done or not done on much more technical issues that have not surfaced in this forum.

SDI or ballistic missile defense has never been a dead horse at least not at the battlefield or theater level. Our soldiers in the field need defensive systems against ballistic missiles. A National missile defense against ICBMs is another story. It is a far more difficult task, but could stop a launch of a nuclear weapon from a rogue nation in the future by intention or by accident. Would you like me to tell you what a 1 megaton airburst 1,000 feet over Los Angeles would do to the city and surrounding area?
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Old 12-19-2002, 07:10 PM   #30
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Sting-
Face it we will always be considered bastards here.
Well not always, but most the time

It is kinda cool though to be a voice of reason in a sea of chaos..

God Save The Queen.

thank u-
shut up

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Old 12-19-2002, 07:25 PM   #31
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Sula,

Military spending is apart of the whole international aid issue because international security, international trade, and humanitarian aid are all connected in some ways. Despite the USA's lack of funding on humanitarian aid, it needs to be emphasized what the USA does for the world in terms of international security and the beneficial effect that US consumers have on the global economy.

While many countries around the world have a cynical view of US's role in providing international security in many area's, they have or can have that view about ANYTHING the USA does on an international basis. Even providing more humanitarian aid could be cynically viewed as simply protecting USA interest. Maintaining impartial justice in a certain part of the globe could actually be very benefitial to longterm US business interest if the results of such impartial justice were stability and as a result, increased economic development attracting US businesses.

I'm not nearly as knowledgable about Indonesia as you , but obviously Kissinger did the best he could with a bad situation. Of course, if you have a superior alternative policy approach to what happened that would safeguard the region from Communist expansion and insure security and stability in the region in a better way, then I'd be interested to hear it. Its important not to think inside a box about the events in Indonesia and realize the greater context of the Cold War in which these events are taking place.

I suppose you do not like the fact that the USA supported Stalin during World War II? Suharto was a mouse compared to Stalin. Again, its important to not look at a particular event or situation inside a box, but to look at the broarder context under which these events are happening. Its unforunate what happened to the people of East Timor just as it is unfortunate that 20,000 French civilians were killed in the initial bombing for D-Day in June 1944. But if you do not think that US policy in Indonesia was simply making the best of a difficult situation in the region similar to other regions and events in history, then I'd like to hear your solution if you had been Secretary of State at the time realizing the larger context under which regional events happen.

Your criticism of US military internvention not being evenhanded seems to stem more from the fact that the USA does not involve itself in every single conflict taking place inside countries around the world. Even if that would be a desirable goal, the USA does not have the ability to do that, and must pick in choose where to use its finite military resources. Of course, if our allies would contribute more to defense, the ability of the USA to involve itself in more area's of the world could increase. It is not in the interest of the USA to have people in any region of the world be slaughtered or die of starvation, and if we had more resources and help, and could prevent these things from happening without compromising more vital and important international security objectives, we would.

Even if there are several specifically unfair practices that can be pointed out in regards to USA trade with the third world, USA consumption of nearly 2 trillion dollars of goods and services from other countries is a NET benefit to the Global economy! Several other first world countries have much higher barriers to free trade than the USA.
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Old 12-19-2002, 11:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Sting-
Face it we will always be considered bastards here.
Well not always, but most the time

It is kinda cool though to be a voice of reason in a sea of chaos..

God Save The Queen.

thank u-
shut up

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great post, really. you outdid yourself this time.
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Old 12-20-2002, 01:53 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
While many countries around the world have a cynical view of US's role in providing international security in many area's, they have or can have that view about ANYTHING the USA does on an international basis.
have or can have?

as Sula pointed out there is some cynicism in the way US international politics are looked upon
as she also pointed out (at least I think she did) it would be even more naive to think there is no ground for this cynicism

what the US regards as international security (or at least the items they think deserve immediate action) more often than not seems to coincide with the US best interest
personally I don't see that much wrong with that
as long as you do not pretend you are looking out for the entire international community
the US does not do that
nobody does that
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Old 12-20-2002, 03:53 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2

Even if there are several specifically unfair practices that can be pointed out in regards to USA trade with the third world, USA consumption of nearly 2 trillion dollars of goods and services from other countries is a NET benefit to the Global economy! Several other first world countries have much higher barriers to free trade than the USA.
Ok Sting you like to grab a point then pin it down and beat it till its mush!!!

2 trillion dollars. Well great. Just a simple question. How much of that comes from sweat shops? Children working 16 hr days? Ppl living in disgusting conditions?

Remember you would not be going to other countries to get products made if you could do it for the same price or less somewhere else. Brings me back to my point about how all these great things and how yous do so much and no-one else does anything. But remember its all in your best intrest you arent doing these things for the children of Somlia first your pocketbooks second!
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Old 12-20-2002, 10:04 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Sting-
Face it we will always be considered bastards here.
Well not always, but most the time

DB9
I'd never categorize you two as bastards,
just misguided.

Merry Christmas to you both.
See you on Jan 18th (HAHA)
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Old 12-20-2002, 10:52 AM   #36
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I actually think they are bastards .....But if bill frist gets trent lotts leadership status....I'll let the conservatives in forum slide
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Old 12-20-2002, 11:49 AM   #37
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It looks like you may indeed have to let us slide, Arun_V.
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Old 12-20-2002, 01:57 PM   #38
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Arun and I have spoke about Bill Frist for months.
Arun and I have have chatted about the old Republican mindset, which keeps a lot of open-minded ppl afraid of the G.O. P.
Arun has always liked Senator Frist alot for a Republican.
This is truly the direction and minset of present day Republicanism ,believe it or not.
Examples like -

Dr. Bill Frist
Collin Powell
Condi Rice
William Weld
Senator McCain
Kenneth Blackwell
Thomas Sowell
George Allen
Peter Kirsanow
Bertrum Schroeder
Armstrong Wiliams
Bruce Willis
Harold Doley
Liddy Dole
Kay Baiely Hutchinson
George Will
Ken Hamblin
and the majority of Republican Senators that wanted him to step down

plus many many other great leaders both Republican and Democrat that will remain unnamed..





Long story short, its a good day for America....and Bono -as Bill and Bono are friends.

Peace-
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:07 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Rono
u forgot to say, "Read You"

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Thank you,...
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Old 12-20-2002, 07:12 PM   #40
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