Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts

[A_Wanderer]

bah I give up

So that's two egg mayonnaise, a prawn Goebbels, a Herman Goering and four Colditz salads....no, wait a minute...I got confused because everyone keeps mentioning the war.

 

[U2_Guy]

Lets be clear about this, America endorsed Bush's programme, albeit by a slim majority.

Part of the reason for this has to be the constant harping by the European media about how terrible Bush is.

Fed up of so much criticism, and perhaps as some kind of colonial hangover, America is showing its independance and unilateralism.
Maybe we should leave the American population to select its own leadership without offering moral condemnation on their candidates. Maybe then they learn how to vote...

 

[nbcrusader]

Maybe we should leave the American population to select its own leadership without offering moral condemnation on their candidates. Maybe then they learn how to vote...

Perhaps we already know how to vote, how to examine and study issues. Maybe we don't need someone who comes in after an election and spews hatred and ignorance.

Or, perhaps you could teach us a class on the right way to think.

 

[U2_Guy]

Perhaps we already know how to vote, how to examine and study issues.

Is that supposed to be a funny joke?

 

[nbcrusader]

Maybe for some arrogant holes

 

[speedracer]

[personal attack]
Hey U2_Guy, you barely have 200 posts to your credit. Maybe you should learn how to have a respectful and civil discussion with others before you continue to discredit and embarrass yourself.
[/personal attack]

Let me also note that there are several relative newbies to this forum who have managed to conduct themselves with some amount of dignity.

 

[U2_Guy]

[personal attack]
Hey U2_Guy, you barely have 200 posts to your credit. Maybe you should learn how to have a respectful and civil discussion with others before you continue to discredit and embarrass yourself.
[/personal attack]

Respectful and civil discussion...

Like you are having by getting your personal attacks on me?

Truth hits and hurts, right speedracer?

 

[U2_Guy]

Bush says "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us." Leaving aside the issue that this sounds suspiciously like Sauron from Lord of the Rings, I fail to see how a president who has actively been the most divisive in modern times can say this with a straight face.

With a record turnout and, excepting 2000, the closest race in a century, America is now one country but two deeply-divided nations: white religious fanatics and everyone else.

I am impressed that a majority of Americans obviously put morals and religion before their economic interests, but anyone seriously now say that USA 04 is that different from other recent examples of dangerous fundamentalism.

The anti-gay, anti (legal) abortion, racist, gun-loving, and apple pie brigade now have their era, possibly in a way never seen before. Add to that a couple of more nuts on the Supreme Court to upset the already difficult conservative/liberal divide and you have a serious problem.

Maybe Bush deserves a chance, but he said pretty much the same thing in 2000 and we all know what happened then.

9/11 has made him more rabid for sure. We are now, officially, in the era of Bush. As a non-citizen, it does not matter at all to me whether Americans are a majority of religious nuts. But non-citizens are entitled to annoyed when that fanatacism becomes part of mainstream foreign policy by the leading global power. I feel sorry for Palestinians waking up this morning to 4 more years of Bush.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What can we say, I guess that the US electoral process failed the "global test" - maybe if you tried something more legitimate, I hear that Cuba is more free than America these days.

I feel sorry for PLO Arabs waking up to the fact that terrorist kingpin Yasser Arafat is about to shuffle off his undeserved mortal coil and when he goes any chance to bully their way to a state will dissapear.

 

[speedracer]

Respectful and civil discussion...

Like you are having by getting your personal attacks on me?

See, doesn't feel so good when somebody does it to you, does it?

Truth hits and hurts, right speedracer?

There are plenty of other posters in this forum who have managed to criticize the US, Bush, etc. in a civil manner. You might try to emulate them.

 

[U2_Guy]

Bush says "We have one country, one Constitution and one future that binds us." Leaving aside the issue that this sounds suspiciously like Sauron from Lord of the Rings, I fail to see how a president who has actively been the most divisive in modern times can say this with a straight face.

With a record turnout and, excepting 2000, the closest race in a century, America is now one country but two deeply-divided nations: white religious fanatics and everyone else.

I am impressed that a majority of Americans obviously put morals and religion before their economic interests, but anyone seriously now say that USA 04 is that different from other recent examples of dangerous fundamentalism.

The anti-gay, anti (legal) abortion, racist, gun-loving, and apple pie brigade now have their era, possibly in a way never seen before. Add to that a couple of more nuts on the Supreme Court to upset the already difficult conservative/liberal divide and you have a serious problem.

Maybe Bush deserves a chance, but he said pretty much the same thing in 2000 and we all know what happened then.

9/11 has made him more rabid for sure. We are now, officially, in the era of Bush. As a non-citizen, it does not matter at all to me whether Americans are a majority of religious nuts. But non-citizens are entitled to annoyed when that fanatacism becomes part of mainstream foreign policy by the leading global power. I feel sorry for Palestinians waking up this morning to 4 more years of Bush.

 

[U2Traveller]

Thanks for sharing your sentiments. I'm sure these thoughts are echoed around the world by more people than we can imagine. It is a sad day for true freedom and democracy everywhere.

True freedom and democracy reigned, or didn't you notice. No one stopped anyone from voting. And there isn't disorder since.

Sometimes people are so naive.

 

[Irvine511]

Here is the problem I have with some Christian conservatives. They try to turn their belief system into a law that affects everyone, regardless of faith or belief. If you don't want gays to get married, that is absolutely fine with me as long as you keep it confined to the rules of your religion. I may not agree with your beliefs, but as long as you aren't pushing them onto the rest of the nation, I will respect them. But when you transcribe your religious beliefs into the law of this land and forbid people who are in a committed and loving relationship from receiving equal protection under the law, then you ARE a bigot. In effect you are saying that gays are not equal because of their sexual orientation. You are saying that gays are not deserving of equal protection, regardless of how strong, deep and true their love and commitment for each other may be. It is almost the same spirit that calls an African American inferior because of the color of their skin. And that is bigotry, plain and simple.

to "nbcrusader": this is *exactly* what i'm talking about. when one is speaking in political terms, one is necessarily forced to group people together. based upon how the Christian right voted, and based upon the fact that 2 out of 10 voters said that "moral values" were important in how they voted (more important than Iraq!), i feel perfectly comfortable saying that this particular group -- probably about 4m people -- are bigots.

 

[speedracer]

Here is the problem I have with some Christian conservatives. They try to turn their belief system into a law that affects everyone, regardless of faith or belief.

Isn't this what happens with a lot of people's beliefs, whether they be religiously informed or not?

 

[U2Traveller]

You people are so naive. You can't say, hey, 4 million people are bigots, that's why they voted for Bush. No, that might not be the case at all. There are many reasons people voted for Bush and stupid Democrats better get together and figure out why Bush won. It's not just because of someone's religious beliefs (which aren't necessarily bigoted), it's not because one prefers war, etc. You need to figure it out.

I think one person really hit it on the head. I think it's America's finger to all the criticism, especially from Europe. We are a very proud and stubborn people. Truly, I think all the criticism from Europe helped Bush to win, AND I think that it is also a finger to people like Bin Laden whom we just absolutely KNOW would love to have seen Bush lose, and even threatened us. Everything worked in Bush's favor.

I believe if people in other countries would've stopped being so loud and immature, that Kerry would've won. Americans will NEVER bend to other people's wills.

I think one thing that really hurt Kerry was that he seemed wishy-wishy. Americans don't like that (especially Americans in the Republican-voting states). If he had seemed more solid, I think many Republicans would've voted for Kerry. They would've preferred change. Republicans don't like the wishy-washy stuff. Kerry also just didn't seem to know what he was doing as far as the war on terrorism.

I seriously believe that most people voted for Bush because Bush looked like the safer bet, and the lesser of two evils. So, it's really the anti-Bush and anti-American people's faults that Kerry lost. People like Europeans, and some Americans, and even Michael Moore and stupid celebrities. I truly think this was a finger from the more solid citizens of this country to THESE people.

I also think that many people didn't want to change presidents in the middle of the war as support for our troops!!! A lot of them agreed.

Look at the real facts, folks, and stop picking on stupid little things.

The states who voted Repbulican are very stable, solid places with stable, solid citizens. It has nothing to do with religious bigotry (that's such a small percentage even among religious people), or stupidity. No, I know very well that Utah and the states around it is full of very bright, very thoughtful, very well-educated, and very solid and good citizens. Bottom-line, if you want to win an election you better appeal to these solid, hard-working, law-abiding people. Period.

Someone said that the Democratic states are the best states to live in anyway. Bullcrap. You people seem to have the majority of problems, lol.

P.S. People in the Democratic states are just as stupid when it comes to marriage (or just as smart).

Utah is a great state with the best of people, and this is coming from that state.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Michael Moore - Will They Ever Trust You Again?

 

[U2Traveller]

Isn't this what happens with a lot of people's beliefs, whether they be religiously informed or not?

Exactly. Non-religious people are trying to do that same thing. Really, people, your arguments that lack true maturity and thinking are falling short. Bottom-line, Bush looked like the better candidate, the lesser of two evils to most - and it was a finger from truly the stronger and more stable people in this country. I even had a hard time voting for Kerry. Many people just didn't trust Kerry. And many people wanted to spit in the face of those who were putting us down. You don't mess with middle America. It truly IS the backbone of this country.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

good luck at the purgatory.

eh... the pope said that they're getting rid of purgatory. so it's all or none for me.

 

[nbcrusader]

to "nbcrusader": this is *exactly* what i'm talking about. when one is speaking in political terms, one is necessarily forced to group people together. based upon how the Christian right voted, and based upon the fact that 2 out of 10 voters said that "moral values" were important in how they voted (more important than Iraq!), i feel perfectly comfortable saying that this particular group -- probably about 4m people -- are bigots.

then your own bigotry.

Whether they read the Bible or do whatever pleases them at the moment, people want law that reflect their moral values. Period.

 

[Irvine511]

You people are so naive. You can't say, hey, 4 million people are bigots, that's why they voted for Bush. No, that might not be the case at all. There are many reasons people voted for Bush and stupid Democrats better get together and figure out why Bush won. It's not just because of someone's religious beliefs (which aren't necessarily bigoted), it's not because one prefers war, etc. You need to figure it out.

when states put up amendments not only to ban gay marriage but "all legal incidents thereof" it is bigotry. i'm sorry, i'm not backing down on this. no one believes homosexuality is a choice, except for a few heterosexuals. it is abnormal, but it is a naturally occurring abnormality like being left-handed or having red hair. as for the 4 million -- yes, that is legitimate too. remember 55-60m people voted for Bush, 4 million is a small percentage of that, but that's exactly the number that Karl Rove has been talking about for 4 years. he believes they stayed home in 2000, and he needed to find a way to get them to vote. he did this by gay baiting and using bigotry to lure many (of course not all) of them to the polls. this is further supported by the 2 in 10 voters pointing to "moral values" as their #1 concern.

as for the rest of the Bush voters, of course there are myriad reasons why they voted for Bush. i know sane people who voted for him, and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so. american domestic politics are extremely complicated, as i've said many times on other forums. i am talking about a specific group that Karl Rove targeted.

there are many, many parallels to the 1960s. just look at Nixon and the "southern strategy" -- he used racism to turn the south from democrat (dixiecrat) to republican.

 

[Irvine511]

then your own bigotry.

Whether they read the Bible or do whatever pleases them at the moment, people want law that reflect their moral values. Period.

and when people take their morals -- which are subjective things, based upon faith and emotion as opposed to reason and evidence -- and use them to limit my personal freedoms and trump the Bible as a basis for discrimination, i'm going to call a spade a spade: bigots.

 

[speedracer]

and when people take their morals -- which are subjective things, based upon faith and emotion as opposed to reason and evidence -- and use them to limit my personal freedoms and trump the Bible as a basis for discrimination, i'm going to call a spade a spade: bigots.

Funny, I know several atheists who oppose gay marriage and most cases of abortion.

 

[nbcrusader]

and when people take their morals -- which are subjective things, based upon faith and emotion as opposed to reason and evidence -- and use them to limit my personal freedoms and trump the Bible as a basis for discrimination, i'm going to call a spade a spade: bigots.

Who doesn't follow their own moral code (objective or subjective)?

What, in essence, you are arguing for is the lowest common denominator moral code (if such a thing exists). That way no law will infringe on someone else unless we all agree to the limitation.

 

[U2Traveller]

when states put up amendments not only to ban gay marriage but "all legal incidents thereof" it is bigotry. i'm sorry, i'm not backing down on this. no one believes homosexuality is a choice, except for a few heterosexuals. it is abnormal, but it is a naturally occurring abnormality like being left-handed or having red hair. as for the 4 million -- yes, that is legitimate too. remember 55-60m people voted for Bush, 4 million is a small percentage of that, but that's exactly the number that Karl Rove has been talking about for 4 years. he believes they stayed home in 2000, and he needed to find a way to get them to vote. he did this by gay baiting and using bigotry to lure many (of course not all) of them to the polls. this is further supported by the 2 in 10 voters pointing to "moral values" as their #1 concern.

as for the rest of the Bush voters, of course there are myriad reasons why they voted for Bush. i know sane people who voted for him, and there are perfectly legitimate reasons to do so. american domestic politics are extremely complicated, as i've said many times on other forums. i am talking about a specific group that Karl Rove targeted.

there are many, many parallels to the 1960s. just look at Nixon and the "southern strategy" -- he used racism to turn the south from democrat (dixiecrat) to republican.

The people who are bigots who voted for Bush are probably very small. No one knows how many. But, I know my state is Republican and my religion is not full of bigots.

Bottom line...I think that Bush winning was good for the troops overseas. It is very bad to pull the floor right out from under them now. I think the American people were smart and WERE thinking of them. I know I was.

 

[Flying FuManchu]

LOL at calling people who oppose gay marriage bigots... way to go!

 

[Bonochick]

Guys like StlEvation, Headache in a Suitcase and that funny australian (Wanderer something) are just your typical redneck.

Name-calling is NOT allowed here. Please refrain from such behavior and refer to the FAQ or contact a moderator (such as myself) if you have any questions or concerns.

 

[nbcrusader]

Name-calling is NOT allowed here. Please refrain from such behavior and refer to the FAQ or contact a moderator (such as myself) if you have any questions or concerns.

I bet Pax owes you BIG TIME if you get stuck moding this forum for the next week

 

[Bonochick]

 

[Irvine511]

Who doesn't follow their own moral code (objective or subjective)?

What, in essence, you are arguing for is the lowest common denominator moral code (if such a thing exists). That way no law will infringe on someone else unless we all agree to the limitation.

i have no idea what you're talking about here. i am talking about political strategy, and the one the Republicans used was based upon hate and fear. and, yes, i do think people who oppose gay marriage are bigots because there is no justifiable opposition to gay marriage unless you are prepared to say that a gay relationship is less worthy than a straight one, which is analagous to saying that an interracial marriage is inherently inferior.

according to today's Washington Post:


"Campaign operatives and analysts point to the same motivating factor: Bush's conservative positions on social issues, particularly his opposition to abortion and his advocacy of a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. The president developed a national strategy based on those issues during a year when many voters put morality-based themes at the top of their own agendas, exit polling showed. ... "The evangelicals turned out, and clearly that issue [same-sex marriage] seems to have driven it," said Paul Tipps, a former state Democratic Party chairman and an informal adviser to Kerry. "I'm tending to believe that the moral values issues did trump" the war in Iraq and the economy for many Bush supporters. Tipps called that a fundamental shift in Ohio politics. "I am stunned," he said. "I didn't see it. This is a state that has historically voted the pocketbook." The Bush campaign officially stayed out of the same-sex marriage initiative, but Secretary of State J. Kenneth Blackwell (R) said in a letter to supporters that the Bush campaign had asked that he advocate the initiative. Blackwell did radio spots and taped a message that was played in 3 million phone calls to voters. Supporters also mailed out 2.5 million church bulletin inserts."


are all Christians bigots? no. are all Christians opposed to gay marriage? no. are many anti-gay bigots Christians? yes. are most Christians opposed to gay marriage? yes.

for me, this is what it comes down to: religion is a personal thing. keep it out of politics.

finally, more Washington Post:

"Indeed, even close observers of Ohio politics might have missed the Bush campaign's emphasis on social values because much of its outreach efforts occurred away from the mass media. While the two campaigns slugged it out on big-city TV stations with commercials about the war and the economy, Bush's Ohio campaign used targeted mailings, phone calls and doorstep visits to talk about values, said John C. Green, a University of Akron professor who studies religion and politics. Green described one piece of mail from the Bush campaign that featured a beautiful church and a traditional nuclear family. It was headlined, "George W. Bush shares your values. Marriage. Life. Faith."

"It could not have been clearer if it had quoted from the Bible," Green said."

 

[hiphop]

I think one person really hit it on the head. I think it's America's finger to all the criticism, especially from Europe. We are a very proud and stubborn people.

Interesting point. Proud and stubborn.

So if I get you right, you mean people from the "backbone" like Utah never change their mind, no matter what? That they spit in the face of everyone who dares to criticize their view?

Basically that would be the unability to accept criticism. Like a child that says "I´m right because I´m right, and besides I got the bigger ..."

Is that what you mean or am I mistaken?