Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts

[BVS]

The person a homosexual hurts most is themselves spiritually.

Maybe you should remove the log from your own eye.

Now I'm understanding why you think us being compared to Saudi Arabia was a complement. I heard it's nice this time of year...

 

[U2Traveller]

Oh, I see. Presumably then it's possible to object to different 'races' without being prejudiced against individuals of that 'race'. Would you say that's true?

Could you also explain on what evidence you base your assertion that homosexuality is a choice?

But being a certain race is NOT a choice.

I'm just stating that religious people believe it's a choice.

I don't think many are truly hateful to homosexual people themselves. They just think it's a sinful lifestyle. They believe that God says it's a sin, thinks it is. If, tomorrow, the prophet of my church said that homosexuality is NOT a sin I would go, oh, alright. I'd wonder why he changed his mind though, why he was so wishy-washy. I might question his authority and his church, much like many questioned Kerry. But, I would NOT have a problem with it NOT being a sin.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I am not comparing them. I'm showing you how something that some think is a sin is looked at by the person doing it as completely natural!!! And I'm wondering if you'll also stick up for a murderer, or if you'll also say murder is a sin, along with me.

The person a homosexual hurts most is themselves spiritually.

As an athiest, I don't refer to right and wrong in terms of "sin" so I can't condemn murder as a sin, although of course I can say I believe it to be wrong. I also don't accept the contention that homosexuality is "spiritually" harmful and I don't believe anyone can make a value judgement about the "spiritual" harm caused by homosexuality.

 

[U2Traveller]

Murderers know it's a sin, if they don't they are psychopaths and that's a completely different subject. No one grows up knowing they are going to be a murderer, that's just fucking ridiculous.

The only way families are harmed are when the members or society can't accept them.

Some homosexuals know it's not normal, too, and many are very unhappy and exhibit psychological and emotional problems.

 

[BVS]

I'm just stating that religious people believe it's a choice.

Please don't speak for all religious people, because you are just wrong.

 

[Irvine511]

It is too a choice.

Yes, I do honestly believe people CHOOSE it even though it's a difficult lifestyle to live in this society just like I CHOOSE to be LDS even though I am hated, insulted, and abused for it. Do you think it's easy? No.

you made a choice to be LDS, gay people do not choice when it comes to same-gender attraction. do you consciously choose to feel aroused when you're with the opposite sex? do you say to yourself, "hmmm, i choose to be attracted to this person?" of course not. no one chooses desire.

the ONLY people who believe that homosexuality is a choice are heterosexuals, and really, how would they know?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

But being a certain race is NOT a choice.

I'm just stating that religious people believe it's a choice.

I don't think many are truly hateful to homosexual people themselves. They just think it's a sinful lifestyle. They believe that God says it's a sin, thinks it is. If, tomorrow, the prophet of my church said that homosexuality is NOT a sin I would go, oh, alright. I'd wonder why he changed his mind though, why he was so wishy-washy. I might question his authority and his church, much like many questioned Kerry. But, I would NOT have a problem with it NOT being a sin.

Careful about claiming to speak for "religious people." Your religious views are almost certainly a minority among religious people and there are undoubtedly many who would disagree with your claims.

Once again: being gay is not a choice. I would like to see the evidence on which you base your claim that homosexuality is a choice. Having seen the devastating effects of homophobia, I would have to disagree with your claim that there aren't many people who are "truly hateful" to gay people - only this week in London a gay man was murdered for his sexuality, if that isn't the most extreme expression of hatred, I don't know what is.

 

[Irvine511]

Bullcrap. Some people would argue that some people are PRONE to like children as sexual objects!!! They're DRAWN to it!!! How about that? Some people like animals. Some people like to kill women. That's what they FEEL is natural to them.

yes, but people are harmed when children are abused or women are killed. no one is harmed by homosexuality. no one.

 

[U2Traveller]

Maybe you should remove the log from your own eye.

Now I'm understanding why you think us being compared to Saudi Arabia was a complement. I heard it's nice this time of year...

You don't understand anything because you're getting me all wrong, and that's because of the glasses you look out of, which I have no problem with...your view.

Anyway, it's a fact that it hurts a person spiritually, just like any sin I commit hurts me. i don't see how that means I have a log in my own eye. I can still say it hurts one spiritually, just like fornication does, or adultery, you know? Or, hmm, swearing. I swear sometimes. I know it hurts me. I'm just stating a fact. No log...lol.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Some homosexuals know it's not normal, too, and many are very unhappy and exhibit psychological and emotional problems.

As do many heterosexual people. Mental illness affects one in four people in their lifetime, you can hardly claim it's a byproduct of homosexuality.

 

[U2Traveller]

As an athiest, I don't refer to right and wrong in terms of "sin" so I can't condemn murder as a sin, although of course I can say I believe it to be wrong. I also don't accept the contention that homosexuality is "spiritually" harmful and I don't believe anyone can make a value judgement about the "spiritual" harm caused by homosexuality.

Okay, then you don't believe that you can make a value judgement about anything.

 

[U2Traveller]

you made a choice to be LDS, gay people do not choice when it comes to same-gender attraction. do you consciously choose to feel aroused when you're with the opposite sex? do you say to yourself, "hmmm, i choose to be attracted to this person?" of course not. no one chooses desire.

the ONLY people who believe that homosexuality is a choice are heterosexuals, and really, how would they know?

Actually, yes, I do make that conscious choice, frankly, to be attracted to the opposite sex.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

back to a previous issue, i'd like to put this "only rednecks" voted for bush thing to rest once and for all...

every one of those states has a high population... is by no means "redneck," are all on the coast or in the north (with the exception of florida), and all went for kerry (again, with the exception of florida)...

seems like an awful lot of red in them there states.

sure, the places with the highest population centers... new york city, LA, san francisco, miami, seattle... all shaded blue. but look just outside of those areas, in the suburbs... orange county, nassau and suffolk county, etc etc. etc. either white or red. long island has a population of near 3 million people... not exactly redneck boondock country. yet the population was split in half over who to vote for. a hell of a lot more people than just "ignorant redneck hicks" voted to re-elect bush. even asbury park voted bush... perhaps springsteen should've spent a little more time there then he thought.

in fact... now that i go back and look at it... LA... land of the screen actors guild... is just a light shade of blue, and is surrounded by red. i wonder what hollywood thinks about that?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Okay, then you don't believe that you can make a value judgement about anything.

I don't believe you can make a value judgement about homosexuality based on your claim that homosexuality is "spiritually" harmful. Your spiritual beliefs are your own and to someone who doesn't share them, they have about as much credibility as if you were to claim the easter bunny told you homosexuality is a sin. As for making value judgements on other subjects...that's a whole other discussion.

 

[U2Traveller]

I think it's horrible the way some people treat gay people. It's sickening what happens. I think it's wrong. Those are the same people who also treat black people badly, and Jews, and JW's, and Mormons, and women, and children.

 

[BVS]

You don't understand anything because you're getting me all wrong, and that's because of the glasses you look out of, which I have no problem with...your view.

Anyway, it's a fact that it hurts a person spiritually, just like any sin I commit hurts me. i don't see how that means I have a log in my own eye. I can still say it hurts one spiritually, just like fornication does, or adultery, you know? Or, hmm, swearing. I swear sometimes. I know it hurts me. I'm just stating a fact. No log...lol.

I don't understand anything? Wow, I'm glad we have you here to straighten everything out.

We all have logs...it's a Bible reference.

 

[Irvine511]

Actually, yes, I do make that conscious choice, frankly, to be attracted to the opposite sex.

how would you know?

as for hurting my soul, coming out was the best thing i've ever done for myself and for my friends and family. i could finally live honestly, and conduct loving, adult relationships in an honest manner. and i've been with the opposite sex. i tried very hard, but there is always a level of dishonesty that cannot be overcome. i am an immensely happier person now, and my friends see this change in me and are happy for me.

 

[U2Traveller]

back to a previous issue, i'd like to put this "only rednecks" voted for bush thing to rest once and for all...

every one of those states has a high population... is by no means "redneck," are all on the coast or in the north (with the exception of florida), and all went for kerry (again, with the exception of florida)...

seems like an awful lot of red in them there states.

sure, the places with the highest population centers... new york city, LA, san francisco, miami, seattle... all shaded blue. but look just outside of those areas, in the suburbs... orange county, nassau and suffolk county, etc etc. etc. either white or red. long island has a population of near 3 million people... not exactly redneck boondock country. yet the population was split in half over who to vote for. a hell of a lot more people than just "ignorant redneck hicks" voted to re-elect bush.

Very interesting. (And I bet makes Bush smile).

 

[U2Traveller]

I don't understand anything? Wow, I'm glad we have you here to straighten everything out.

We all have logs...it's a Bible reference.

I know it's a Bible reference.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Actually, yes, I do make that conscious choice, frankly, to be attracted to the opposite sex.

You're the first person I've heard say this. Thank you for at least having the consistency to claim that heterosexuality is also a choice. So would you say you just one day made a conscious choice to be heterosexual and you've never thought about it since? Or is it a continuous, ongoing decision, so you have to constantly remind yourself to be attracted to the opposite sex and to find people of the same gender as you unattractive?

 

[U2Traveller]

how would you know?

as for hurting my soul, coming out was the best thing i've ever done for myself and for my friends and family. i could finally live honestly, and conduct loving, adult relationships in an honest manner. and i've been with the opposite sex. i tried very hard, but there is always a level of dishonesty that cannot be overcome. i am an immensely happier person now, and my friends see this change in me and are happy for me.

How would I know? It's not easy for me to be attracted to some men.

Good for you. Who knows what the future will bring, eh?

 

[U2Traveller]

You're the first person I've heard say this. Thank you for at least having the consistency to claim that heterosexuality is also a choice. So would you say you just one day made a conscious choice to be heterosexual and you've never thought about it since? Or is it a continuous, ongoing decision, so you have to constantly remind yourself to be attracted to the opposite sex and to find people of the same gender as you unattractive?

It's a continuous, ongoing decision. I'm not attracted to women at all sexually. At least I've never found anyone. But, that doesn't mean you just automatically are attracted to the opposite sex, either, if you're heterosexual.

I don't think it's natural all around. I agree with Bono...I think we're all sort of like animals, going from one partner to another. I think monogamy is also a choice.

 

[Irvine511]

How would I know? It's not easy for me to be attracted to some men.

Good for you. Who knows what the future will bring, eh?

if you're not attracted to some men, why bother? no one is attracted to all people, no matter their orientation. i have no idea what you mean.

as was said in Trainspotting, "it's all about aesthetics and fuck all to do with morality."

and thank you. i hope the future will bring me the tools to create stability in my relationships. that's all i'm asking for -- the tools to do the job.

 

[U2Traveller]

if you're not attracted to some men, why bother? no one is attracted to all people, no matter their orientation. i have no idea what you mean.

as was said in Trainspotting, "it's all about aesthetics and fuck all to do with morality."

and thank you. i hope the future will bring me the tools to create stability in my relationships. that's all i'm asking for -- the tools to do the job.

I think I'd be very happy just being by myself. That's what I mean. I don't need men anymore then I need women.

I seriously hope so. I think gay people are usually very kind, good people. We'll see what happens.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

It's a continuous, ongoing decision. I'm not attracted to women at all sexually. At least I've never found anyone. But, that doesn't mean you just automatically are attracted to the opposite sex, either, if you're heterosexual.

But if you're not attracted to women (presumably then you're only attracted to men) then how is your heterosexuality a choice? You've admitted you don't choose not to be attracted to women, you're just not, so how are you making a choice?

 

[U2Traveller]

But if you're not attracted to women (presumably then you're only attracted to men) then how is your heterosexuality a choice? You've admitted you don't choose not to be attracted to women, you're just not, so how are you making a choice?

Okay, then I do make it a choice NOT to be attracted to women. I do choose that, just like I choose to be attracted to some men. But some men I'm not attracted to at all. I can't even choose to, lol.

It's a choice. I believe heterosexuality is also a choice.

Someone like Bono I'm attracted to. Someone like the boring banker guy next door with mushy muscles and not much world-view, I am not.

 

[Irvine511]

I think gay people are usually very kind, good people. We'll see what happens.

thank you for your kind words. i was raised catholic, so i fully understand the premise of "hate the sin, love the sinner." but the mistake here, i think, is that if the "sin" is homosexuality, it is definitionally more than simply sex. sex is an expression of physical attraction and affection, often an expression of love, and a single component in a complex human relationship. i think people get hung up on the specific sex act -- and i fully understand why straight people find gay sex unappealing ... it's far, far more legitimate to say that homosexuality is gross (an opinion) than to say it is wrong (a judgement -- and fail to see the multidimensionality of the identity.

would it be a sin if i lived with and loved and shared my life with a member of the same sex, but we refrained from sex?

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Okay, then I do make it a choice NOT to be attracted to women. I do choose that, just like I choose to be attracted to some men. But some men I'm not attracted to at all. I can't even choose to, lol.

It's a choice. I believe heterosexuality is also a choice.

Someone like Bono I'm attracted to. Someone like the boring banker guy next door with mushy muscles and not much world-view, I am not.

So you're just changing your position to make your argument more convincing? Two minutes ago you said you're just not attracted to women, implying that you don't have to make a conscious choice not to be attracted to them. Now you're claiming it is a conscious choice?

In any case, do you really choose to be attracted to particular men? Do you consciously say "I will be attracted to Bono, but not to the man next door"? Or do you just see a picture of Bono and are naturally attracted to him, but don't feel the same way about your neighbour?

 

[nbcrusader]

Welcome back Fizz!!!

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Hey nbc! Nice to see you again.