Flying FuManchu said:
I don't see how denying someone the same rights you have, because of their sexual orientation, is anything but bigotry.
Post-election Commentaries, Thoughts
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I don't see how denying someone the same rights you have, because of their sexual orientation, is anything but bigotry.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
Democrats are going to lose again if they don't stop blaming those who voted for Bush, and if they don't stop insulting people and being prejudiced and trying to find fault with someone else.
Utah is very Republican no matter what. It's a very conservative state and it's become even more conservative now. The whole country has. I don't believe it's because of bigotry, fear, hate, etc. I believe it's because Democrats are losing their minds. They don't look good, period, and they're looking worse and worse.
But, I was willing to risk it and vote Kerry even though many Democrats look truly horrible.
Religious people aren't all bigots. People who are against homosexuality aren't all bigots. People who voted for Bush aren't all bigots and aren't stupid, and are thinking individuals.
This is a very conservative country and it will become more conservative if you give it a reason to.
So, Democrats, it's all your fault. Look at yourselves.
This gay-marriage stuff. I frankly thinks it's the fault of those who oppose it that it passed. I believe that if it had been made more an issue...it was hardly even an issue here in Utah...that people would've thought more, more would've voted no. Period. But, if you don't make a good argument for your side what is there for people to choose from?
I just think it passed in Utah because there wasn't much argument against it, and I know there could've been. If religious and conservative Utahns had been shown how this is bigoted and not necessary they would've voted no, believe me.
Many NON-BIGOTS voted for it.
Utah is very Republican no matter what. It's a very conservative state and it's become even more conservative now. The whole country has. I don't believe it's because of bigotry, fear, hate, etc. I believe it's because Democrats are losing their minds. They don't look good, period, and they're looking worse and worse.
But, I was willing to risk it and vote Kerry even though many Democrats look truly horrible.
Religious people aren't all bigots. People who are against homosexuality aren't all bigots. People who voted for Bush aren't all bigots and aren't stupid, and are thinking individuals.
This is a very conservative country and it will become more conservative if you give it a reason to.
So, Democrats, it's all your fault. Look at yourselves.
This gay-marriage stuff. I frankly thinks it's the fault of those who oppose it that it passed. I believe that if it had been made more an issue...it was hardly even an issue here in Utah...that people would've thought more, more would've voted no. Period. But, if you don't make a good argument for your side what is there for people to choose from?
I just think it passed in Utah because there wasn't much argument against it, and I know there could've been. If religious and conservative Utahns had been shown how this is bigoted and not necessary they would've voted no, believe me.
Many NON-BIGOTS voted for it.
Flying FuManchu
New Yorker
Ask people if they are against polygamy, incest, etc. If they say yes, they oppose the incest, polygamy, etc... Then call them bigots right to their face.
People throw around the word bigot too freely.
People throw around the word bigot too freely.
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Sigh....
Defining marriage is one thing.
Denying a loving, committed monogamous couple the same legal rights as everyone else because they're not straight is quite another.
Defining marriage is one thing.
Denying a loving, committed monogamous couple the same legal rights as everyone else because they're not straight is quite another.
U2Traveller said:
You continue to ignore my argument. I can see this is pointless.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
U2Traveller said:
this is the problem right here: you say "i believe." instead of believing, why don't we consult some evidence? i know this is how the party of GWB operates -- belief vs evidence, faith vs fact -- but the rest of the world prefers evidence. from the Washington Post:
Campaign operatives and analysts point to the same motivating factor: Bush's conservative positions on social issues, particularly his opposition to abortion and his advocacy of a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. The president developed a national strategy based on those issues during a year when many voters put morality-based themes at the top of their own agendas, exit polling showed.
It all came together perfectly in Ohio where Issue 1, a proposal to amend the state constitution to define marriage as only the union of a man and a woman, passed overwhelmingly on Tuesday.
"The evangelicals turned out, and clearly that issue [same-sex marriage] seems to have driven it," said Paul Tipps, a former state Democratic Party chairman and an informal adviser to Kerry. "I'm tending to believe that the moral values issues did trump" the war in Iraq and the economy for many Bush supporters. Tipps called that a fundamental shift in Ohio politics. "I am stunned," he said. "I didn't see it. This is a state that has historically voted the pocketbook."
you see,
i'd like to thank you for this brillaint, well thought out comment. seeing as i grew up half an hour outside NYC and have lived here my entire life, i've never actualliy been called a redneck before. i appreciate this new and enlightening experience. perhaps now i should go get myself a NASCAR jacket, some pabst blue ribbon and a horse. be kinda tough takin' a horse onto the long island expressway though...
i wonder if they'll late me take him in the HOV lane 
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Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
U2Traveller said:
how can you be against homosexuality? it has always existed, it always will exist ... this is like saying you are against people who like strawberry ice cream or who are left handed or who have red hair. sexual orientation is 100% involuntary, and probably due to a very strong genetic component.
i do agree with your 2nd statement. i have tried, very hard, to say that i do not believe that all GWB supporters are bigots. i know smart people who voted for Bush, and while i disagree with them, their reasons are based upon facts and evidence. i am referring to the specific, defined group that Karl Rove and GOP operatives targeted and motivated to get to the polls through whipping up fear and hatred through homophobia.
Flying FuManchu
New Yorker
I just don't like how people are who are against gay marriage are just labeled bigots. There are a variety of reasons why people may oppose it and it doesn't have to do with actual "hate of gay people." Lifestyles = regulated all the time (i.e. incest, polygamy). To say someone is a bigot b/c they are denying someone love and the rights they may come with it justifies calling people who oppose polygamy and incest bigots. Because someone wants to regulate a lifestyle doesn't mean they are a bigot.
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U2Traveller
Acrobat
Flying FuManchu said:
Exactly. Not everyone who opposes it are bigots, just like not everyone who voted for Bush is stupid, or that every white person is racist. See how stupid that is?
True, then people who are against incest are also bigots, because HEY that's someone's choice, and it's a love lifestyle choice!!!
Good point.
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Polygamy is a way of life. It is something that is chosen or learned culturally. Same with incest.
Homosexuality is not something that is chosen or passed down or learned. It just is. It is inherent in a person's nature the same way your sexuality is. In the same way that heterosexuals can't help but be attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals can't help but be attracted to the same sex.
And I suppose this is where a lot of people disagree with odd notions that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured.
Homosexuality is not something that is chosen or passed down or learned. It just is. It is inherent in a person's nature the same way your sexuality is. In the same way that heterosexuals can't help but be attracted to the opposite sex, homosexuals can't help but be attracted to the same sex.
And I suppose this is where a lot of people disagree with odd notions that homosexuality is a disease that can be cured.
Once again you ignore my argument. NOWHERE did I say that everyone who opposes gay marriage is a bigot (only those who want to deny gays equal LEGAL rights). NOWHERE did I say everyone who voted for Bush is stupid. But it's much more convenient for you to make these blanket statements, rather than deal with the specific issues, isn't it?
Homosexuality is not a choice! Do you honestly believe anyone would choose to be homosexual when there is so much obvious discrimination against them?
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U2Traveller
Acrobat
Diemen said:
Bullcrap. Some people would argue that some people are PRONE to like children as sexual objects!!! They're DRAWN to it!!! How about that? Some people like animals. Some people like to kill women. That's what they FEEL is natural to them.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
Diemen said:
It is too a choice.
Yes, I do honestly believe people CHOOSE it even though it's a difficult lifestyle to live in this society just like I CHOOSE to be LDS even though I am hated, insulted, and abused for it. Do you think it's easy? No.
It's not easy to be in a straight marriage or relationship, either.
In a way I think it's unnatural to stay with one person all your life, just like Bono does. It's hard.
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BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
U2Traveller said:
So homosexuality is = to murder. Great analogy, you have some issues my friend.
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
U2Traveller said:
How lovely. Gay people compared to paedophiles and murderers. I'm so glad to be back in FYM.
By the way, would you say it's possible to "oppose" Black people and yet not be a racist? Thought not. I wonder why it's so different when we're talking about gay people.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Did I ever say that? Nice jump my friend. My point was that some murderers feel they were BORN that way. That's my point. Period. So, in some people's logic that means it's not a sin.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
FizzingWhizzbees said:
How lovely. Gay people compared to paedophiles and murderers. I'm so glad to be back in FYM.
By the way, would you say it's possible to "oppose" Black people and yet not be a racist? Thought not. I wonder why it's so different when we're talking about gay people.
No one's opposing homosexuals themselves, and being black is definitely NOT a choice.
U2Traveller said:
This is the stupidest argument I've ever heard.
If you cannot see the difference between homosexuality - which harms no one, and murder, then we might as well end this argument now, because you obviously aren't capable of making rational comparisons.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
U2Traveller said:
Never heard anyone or any scientist say that murderers or pedophiles were born that way.
Where are you getting this?
U2Traveller
Acrobat
Diemen said:
Oh, I think you're wrong...homosexuality has harmed many people and families.
But the point remains that some murderers feel they can't help themselves. But, to the rest of us we think it's a sin. They don't. They think they were born to be that way.
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
U2Traveller said:
Actually, just a few posts back you referred to "people who are against homosexuality" so assuming we can take being against homosexuality to be the same as being opposed to homosexuality, people are in fact talking about opposing gay people.
Being black certainly isn't a choice and neither is being gay.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
BonoVoxSupastar said:
Murderers themselves think that. Have you never read the thoughts of a murderer, or a book about them?
And scientists, too, have wondered if its some gene or trait.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
FizzingWhizzbees said:
No, you don't get it. NOT the people, the lifestyle. Much different.
We believe homosexuality is indeed a choice, not natural. It could be a weakness, but we all have those and are suppose to overcome them.
Anyway...
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
U2Traveller said:
I would contend that bigotry and prejudice against homosexuality is what has caused harm to gay people and their families, not the fact that they are gay.
And I would also appreciate it if you would stop comparing homosexuality with murder. It's unjustified and insensitive to say the least.
When you murder someone - you obviously infringe upon that person's rights.
When you are homosexual, you infringe upon no one's rights.
I can't believe you're actually using murderers as an argument here.
When you are homosexual, you infringe upon no one's rights.
I can't believe you're actually using murderers as an argument here.
FizzingWhizzbees
ONE love, blood, life
U2Traveller said:
Oh, I see. Presumably then it's possible to object to different 'races' without being prejudiced against individuals of that 'race'. Would you say that's true?
Could you also explain on what evidence you base your assertion that homosexuality is a choice?
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
U2Traveller said:
Murderers know it's a sin, if they don't they are psychopaths and that's a completely different subject. No one grows up knowing they are going to be a murderer, that's just fucking ridiculous.
The only way families are harmed are when the members or society can't accept them.
U2Traveller
Acrobat
FizzingWhizzbees said:
I am not comparing them. I'm showing you how something that some think is a sin is looked at by the person doing it as completely natural!!! And I'm wondering if you'll also stick up for a murderer, or if you'll also say murder is a sin, along with me.
The person a homosexual hurts most is themselves spiritually.
U2Traveller said:
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