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Old 04-17-2008, 07:40 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
I saw a few of these women on Larry King. They are all extremely rehearsed, and it's no wonder that the investigators can't piece together the story.

I have always been bothered by the fact that the state allows this community to exist in renegade towns where the law authorities either have no access or they are comprised of the community members themselves. These people function entirely outside of the law, and not just criminally either - they regularly commit tax fraud, municipal and environmental infractions, fail to comply with educational standards and so on. There is one such town in the southern part of British Columbia as well and it's been the same sort of problem. Again, people relying on religion to live outside of the boundaries set for the rest of us. I can't fathom anyone setting up such a lawless community outside of the context of religion and having it be acceptable to the same degree.
Agreed 100% with this.
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Old 04-17-2008, 07:55 AM   #22
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Originally posted by deep
Is there sex with minors (under age of 16) outside of marriage (plural)?

or do they just do their plural marriages
(which I don't agree with or think should be legal)
This is what the deal is- their sect believes in plural marriage, however, in the US they are against the law. Therefore, all but the first wife are only married to the man 'spiritually'- which means that technically, the additional wives are not legal wives. Therefore, the young girls they are 'marrying' are actually not married to them , they just like to say they are in their world, but that doesn't change the law of the land- they are having sex with minors they are not really married to.

Because the parents give consent for the girls to be 'married' to these older men, and the girls are not always willing, this could actually be some form of child abuse (though of course not in their way of thinking)


Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I read that they bought that place in 03 and it is now estimated to be worth $20 million-where did they get the money to buy it? Warren Jeffs? Apparently they built their own power grid and other necessities.
On CNN, I heard that because the extra wives are not legally married, they are technically 'single mothers'- and can- and DO- collect welfare for all their kids! (the compound profits from welfare payments on a large scale) So they are using the system they denounce to their financial advantage!

Of course, no one can get rich off of welfare alone (though there are a lot of kids in there!) I have also heard that people who join must sign over all their personal holdings to the church- houses, cars, savings accounts, etc.

If you leave the group or are put out, you do not get your money back. In a story a few years ago, there was a 16 year old girl at the Arizona compound who refused the arranged marriage to an older man and left the sect, and her parents were put out of the sect in shame, but because they had legally signed over their home and assets, they lost everything.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:31 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

as for this Texas situation
I mention 16, because I believe 16 is the age of consent in Texas
It's 17 in Texas...
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Old 04-17-2008, 03:56 PM   #24
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The most distubing thing about this to me is that the focus seems to be on wife collecting and not religion. If 'holiness' were the goal, they'd be happy with one wife.

It seems really sick how they have to turn a certain number of boys out into the street at puberty to eliminate competition, can't anyone see that's just because the old men want the girls for themselves? The Mormons of old claimed that plural marriage was necessary to keep up their numbers because there were more females than males (which may or may not be true, and still isn't justifyable) but in this case, there are plenty of males, and they're getting rid of some of them so others can have more girls! That's got to be among the most perverted things I've ever heard. I can't believe most of the girls wouldn't choose a guy her own age if she had the chance. I wouldn't have much of a problem with a 16 yr. old girl getting married, or having sex IF it was with a boyfriend she chose willingly, but I don't believe that is the case here. It's more like arranged marriages from the middle ages. Even if some of the girls might claim they are happy with it, it's only because they were raised to believe that and don't know anything else, and they are afraid to fight it, end up excommunicated, and in hell. That's why it's abuse that the children are raised that way.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:28 PM   #25
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I agree that if they were underage and or not consenting it's a horrible crime.

But, how do you feel if they were 17+ and all just living together? Is that cool with you guys? How do you feel about women having multiple "partners" or husband-like indivuals who provide support?
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:40 PM   #26
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
But, how do you feel if they were 17+ and all just living together? Is that cool with you guys? How do you feel about women having multiple "partners" or husband-like indivuals who provide support?
Except in many cases, they are not.

One of the big issues here is that because you can only legally have one wife, the remaining ones are classified as single mothers and have a tendency to collect massive amounts of welfare on behalf of the many, many children they have.
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:59 PM   #27
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I think that what's known about this sect's (or should I say cult's?) ideology and socialization practices from ex-members' accounts provides ample reason to doubt the consensuality of these 'marriages,' even when not underage. But legally speaking, yes, it can be quite a gray area because the law tends to assume consensuality unless a criminal complaint is made.
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Old 04-18-2008, 12:42 AM   #28
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I have to say, no matter how damaging this way of life probably is for the people involved, I felt very badly for those poor mothers who had their children taken from them. This story isn't even that important, but CNN just goes on and on exploiting it. That worthless waste of space Larry King can't even treat these women with respect; he just has this reprimanding tone; it was all so cruel, so lacking in compassion and any true objectivity rooted in reason and understanding about how natural it was for these people to continue their culture.

It's just so wrong, and those kids are going to be traumatized by the event.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:05 AM   #29
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This story IS important, but I agree that the mothers have been treated unfairly... This is obviously a case of "cultural" brainwashing, and though I don't feel like they should get a free ride, for they have a big part in this, they don't need to be completely shut out...
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Old 04-18-2008, 07:01 AM   #30
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abcnews.com

Where is the 16 year Old Polygamist Victim?

Experts say Texas polygamy case may unravel if girls is not found.
By SCOTT MICHELS and CHRIS CUOMO

SAN ANGELO, Texas, April 17, 2008 —

Among the hundreds of children, lawyers and caseworkers involved in an unprecedented child custody hearing, one person will be noticeably absent -- the 16-year-old girl whose call for help set in motion the largest child protection case in U.S. history.

Texas authorities say they have not located or identified the girl, though they have said they believe she is among the 416 children from a polygamous sect who were taken into state custody nearly two weeks ago.

Some people are now questioning whether she exists at all.

Though the girl is not key to today's hearing, her absence looms over the case. Without her, any potential criminal charges that might be brought against members of the sect in the future could be jeopardized, legal experts say.

"This girl is proving to be the linchpin of the entire operation," Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor at George Washington University, told ABC News. "If she doesn't exist, it's going to make it very difficult to defend this search. And if you can't do that, you can't use anything they found in there."

In late March, a girl who identified herself as Sarah made several petrified calls to an abuse hot line, complaining that her 49-year-old husband physically and sexually abused her, court records say. The calls prompted government officials to raid the Yearning for Zion Ranch in West Texas and take all the children into custody.

But, several women who live on the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints ranch told ABC News that Sarah does not exist.

"She's a bogus person," a woman who identified herself as Joy said earlier this week.

Since the calls, several events have raised questions about Sarah.

Investigators were apparently searching for information about the girl and seized medical records for several women who shared the name given by Sarah during their search of the compound, according to court records. Though an arrest warrant was issued for a man thought to be her husband, police did not arrest him.

On April 4, a day after Texas police raided the compound, an abuse hot line in Arizona received a similar call from a 16-year-old who said she was calling from the FLDS community in Colorado City, Ariz.

The girl said she was being held against her will and physically abused, said Fernando Vender, a spokesman for the Arizona Department of Economic Security, which oversees child protective services.

When Arizona investigators visited a family with the same name provided by the caller, they did not find the girl or any evidence of abuse, he said. Though the case remains open, investigators "could not verify that there was a young girl by that name, with that family and that abuse was going on," Vender said.

In Texas, state Attorney General Greg Abbott wasn't so concerned about finding the caller named Sarah.

"It's irrelevant if the 16-year-old can and will be found," Abbott told "Good Morning America" today.

He said Child Protective Services "believe they have significant evidence" that abuse occurred and that the children would be in danger if they were returned to the ranch.

Abbott hinted that additional charges could be brought against sect members because women who gave television interviews in recent days "basically admitted to living in a state of bigamy... That also would be a ground for legal prosecution here in the state of Texas."

But others believe that criminal charges against sect members could be jeopardized if the girl is never identified.

Lisa Wayne, a criminal defense lawyer, said sect members potentially face a variety of criminal charges, including statutory rape, abuse or negligence.

But the sect could challenge the search warrant that police used to enter the compound if the girl is never identified and some of the evidence that investigators found could be suppressed, she said.

"In a criminal case, you have the right to know who may give the government probable cause to come on the premises," she said.

In her calls to the family shelter, Sarah said she believed she was pregnant with her second child. She claimed her husband was a 49-year-old man named Dale. She said that he raped and beat her, once breaking her ribs, and that she was being held at the ranch against her will.

This weekend, Texas Rangers interviewed Dale Evans Barlow, 50, who is named in the search and arrest warrant used to search the compound, but did not arrest him.

Barlow was briefly jailed in Arizona last year, sentenced to three years' probation and forced to register as a sex offender after he was convicted of conspiracy to commit sexual conduct with a minor, according to Mohave County, Ariz., Probation Department Chief Friend Walker.

But, Barlow's lawyer told ABC News that he has not been to Texas since 1977 and Walker said Barlow had been checking in regularly with his Arizona probation officer.

Kathleen Mackert, who said she fled the FLDS community in Colorado City after years of sexual abuse, said she believes Sarah is real but may have been taken out of the compound before police arrived.

"They would want to avoid them getting ahold of her at all costs," she said.

Mackert said sect members are taught that they should lie to the government and other outsiders. "We were expected to lie," she said. "They were the enemy."

Sarah's absence probably will not affect today's custody hearing, during which the state will ask to keep the children in state custody and place them in temporary foster homes, legal experts say. More important to the future of the children in state custody will be what the police found once they were inside the compound.

Guy Choate, who is helping to coordinate lawyers for the children, said it's not unusual for child custody cases to be based on an anonymous call. If caseworkers find evidence of abuse, they are obligated to take action, he said.
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Old 04-18-2008, 01:25 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Muldfeld
I have to say, no matter how damaging this way of life probably is for the people involved, I felt very badly for those poor mothers who had their children taken from them. This story isn't even that important, but CNN just goes on and on exploiting it. That worthless waste of space Larry King can't even treat these women with respect; he just has this reprimanding tone; it was all so cruel, so lacking in compassion and any true objectivity rooted in reason and understanding about how natural it was for these people to continue their culture.

It's just so wrong, and those kids are going to be traumatized by the event.
Agreed. Whatever the details of the case, it's just so unfortunate that these kids are going through this huge upheaval. I feel for the mothers as well. I think there's no easy way of going about it though, as they obviously needed to be removed from such a toxic situation. Sad..
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Old 04-24-2008, 12:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Texas 911 Calls Linked To 33-Year-Old Colorado Woman With History of False Claims

By David Fahrenthold
Washington Post, April 24


SAN ANGELO, TX -- The phone calls that triggered a massive raid on a polygamist compound in west Texas--in which a quavering girl's voice described being forcibly married at 15--have been linked to a Colorado woman with a history of making false claims of sexual abuse, according to an affidavit filed in Colorado Springs. The affidavit says calls that allegedly came from "Sarah Barlow"--a teenage girl at the Yearning for Zion Ranch outside Eldorado, Tex.--actually came from numbers connected to Rozita Swinton, 33, of Colorado Springs. The affidavit also notes Swinton's possible involvement in a series of separate but similar reports in which the young caller described being abused by a pastor, an uncle or her father.

Texas authorities yesterday said they have not determined whether the calls about the Yearning for Zion Ranch were a hoax and that they plan to press on with their investigation of possible sexual abuse there. More than 400 children are now in state custody, as authorities try to sort out what happened at the ranch run by a polygamist group called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. "Until she's actually been charged" with a crime related to the phone calls, Swinton's role "is still an open question," state Department of Public Safety spokesman Tom Vinger said.

But the revelations about phone calls to shelters for abused women in Colorado, Washington, Utah, Arizona and Florida cast doubt on the dramatic scenario that led Texas authorities to investigate and ultimately to raid the compound April 3. The raid made the insular sect the subject of one of the most complex child-custody cases in recent U.S. history.

...On Wednesday, officials at the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said that the facts surrounding the first phone call had become irrelevant because the raid turned up independent evidence that underage girls had been impregnated. "The removal was based on our investigation. It was not based on the initial call," spokesman Patrick Crimmins said.

The affidavit made public Wednesday, which was provided to the Post by the Associated Press, indicates links to Swinton even though she has no apparent connection to the Eldorado ranch. One phone number used to call the San Angelo shelter is registered to a Courtney Swinton, with an address in Rozita Swinton's apartment complex. The affidavit said authorities had "several reports regarding Rozita Swinton making false reports" with another number that had also been used to call the shelter...The affidavit described these events as part of a request for a warrant for Swinton, charging her with false reporting to authorities. It said she had already pleaded guilty to false reporting last year in Colorado. Attempts to reach Swinton yesterday were unsuccessful: One number listed on the affidavit was disconnected, and a call to another was not returned.

The affidavit does not put forward any motive Swinton might have had for allegedly making the calls, but it hints at a possible personality disorder. The document quotes a former worker at a shelter for abused women in Colorado Springs who may have received calls from Swinton in February. In one, Swinton allegedly said, "Rozita and Dana are in the same body, but just different personalities," and that the "Dana personality is there to protect Rozita from being hurt."
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Old 04-24-2008, 03:06 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
Thanks for the post Yolland.

I was hoping someone with some equalibrium, temerity and guts would step forward and post this in FYM

It answers my earlier posted question:


Quote:
So, has the allegation of rape been proved yet?
Like everbody else I *initially* had the same reaction, but changed my views as the story unfolded.

<>
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Old 04-28-2008, 03:32 PM   #34
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If "statutory rape" applies

there is plenty of evidence.

Quote:
Officials: 31 of 53 girls from sect ranch have been pregnant

Apr 28 03:45 PM US/Eastern
By MICHELLE ROBERTS
Associated Press Writer

SAN ANTONIO (AP) - Texas child welfare officials say more than half the teen girls swept into state custody from a polygamist sect's ranch have been pregnant.

Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.

State officials took custody of all 463 children at the Yearning For Zion Ranch more than three weeks ago after a raid prompted by calls to a domestic violence hotline.

Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
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Old 04-28-2008, 07:20 PM   #35
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http://www.captivefldschildren.org/










http://www.fldstruth.org/
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Old 04-28-2008, 10:57 PM   #36
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I feel horrible for the children and the mother's, who didn't know any better and a great deal of them won't really understand what's wrong with this picture untill it's resolved and the counseling can begin.
These types of compounds are phedophile factories and it's the suseptible girls, women and in some cases young men - that are taught by manipulative, sick, greedy, men - that this is "in the name of GOD. Once again God cringes.
I'm not letting some the women off the hook here either. To allow somoene to perpretrate this on a child is reprehensible.
This is going to be really difficult trials. But it needs to be done.
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Old 07-25-2008, 06:40 AM   #37
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Lawmakers consider more involvement on polygamists

by MICHELLE ROBERTS, Associated Press, July 24


SAN ANTONIO — Lawmakers and former polygamist church members at a hearing before the U.S. Senate Judiciary Committee on Thursday accused a sect under investigation in Texas and elsewhere of denying women and children their basic rights. The panel, requested by Sen. Harry Reid, met to consider ways to better coordinate federal and state law enforcement's response to groups like the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which prosecutors say has successfully avoided law enforcement by moving across state and international boundaries. The sect has been accused of forcing underage girls into marriage and sex and controlling members financially, charges FLDS members have denied. "What's happening here is as bad as anything I've seen in the world," said Sen. Benjamin Cardin, D-Md. "This group could easily be classified as a hate crimes group because of what they're teaching young children. It really does cry out for us to be very comprehensive."

Federal prosecutors and attorneys general from Utah, Arizona, Texas and Nevada were invited to testify, as were two former FLDS members who have been critical of the sect. Several current members were at the hearing in Washington but were not invited to speak. Calls to spokesmen for the sect were not immediately returned Thursday, but member Willie Jessop said earlier in the week that Congress had purposely solicited only testimony from those who opposed the sect. "The one message we hope people are getting loud and clear is this has become a situation where people don't want to know the truth," said Jessop.

The witnesses at the hearing said authorities have and should continue investigating crimes ranging from domestic violence and child abuse to tax evasion and child labor law violations—acts they accused FLDS members of cloaking in religion. "Claims of freedom of religion should not be allowed to blind us to the many illegal and unconscionable activities of the FLDS leadership," said Daniel Fischer, a former member and outspoken critic of the sect.

Reid, D-Nev., has introduced legislation that would put together a task force to coordinate federal and state law enforcement and provide grants to aid those leaving the sect. Prosecutors at the hearing said the agencies already work together, but most welcomed additional coordination. "It is critical that federal authorities focus on the FLDS and devote the resources to prosecute criminal wrongdoing that is uncovered" regardless of what state it occurs in, said Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott.

On Tuesday, Texas became the latest state to file criminal charges against FLDS leader Warren Jeffs, who has already been convicted of being an accomplice to rape in Utah and awaits trial in Arizona on charges related to alleged underage marriages of sect girls. A grand jury indicted him and four followers on charges of sexual abuse of children. One of the followers also faces a bigamy charge, and a sixth FLDS member was indicted for failing to report child abuse.

One prosecutor cautioned though that a "blunt instrument" like a federal task force may be counterproductive after years of working to gain the trust of FLDS members. "Polygamist communities are highly self-contained and insular, which makes them difficult for law enforcement to infiltrate," said Brett Tolman, the U.S. Attorney for Utah. The announcement of the congressional hearing and federal involvement has already caused some who were cooperative with outside law enforcement to begin withdrawing recently, he said.

The FLDS, which believes polygamy brings glorification in heaven, is a breakaway sect of the mainline Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy more than a century ago and which excommunicates those who practice it.
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Old 07-28-2008, 04:10 AM   #38
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I admit it, I'm ignorant and stupid on this subject and therefore I'm going to ask the question that has been burning in my brain since this whole thing began - my question is out of true ignorance and there is no disrespect intended so PLEASE forgive me if I offend anyone with this question.....and I'd really appreciate a straight answer rather than just harsh remarks - because I really want to know:


Why are people so against this polygamist thing and yet they'll do everything to allow gay marriages? What's the difference?? Both are unconventional but Polygamy was very much the norm during biblical times whereas homosexuality is still considered a sin against god. So why is everyone going after the Polygamists while at the same time advocating the gay issue?
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Old 07-28-2008, 04:47 AM   #39
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One reason, among others: It doesn't matter what is in the bible or what is perceived to be against god.

Also: In a gay relationship both partners are equal. With exceptions, of course, polygamous relationships are often not equal in their power structure.

And one practical consideration: There is yet to be any legal framework about inheriting rights, divorce, child custody and so on.
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Old 07-28-2008, 06:16 AM   #40
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I wouldn't mind polygamy being legal as long as all parties consented to the arrangement and were consenting adults (or close enough, ie, most states allow people under 18 to marry if they have parental permission). Of course, what if a couple gets married and a year or so later the husband decides he wants to get a second wife, but his wife doesn't want that? Or what if a guy has four wives and then wife #2 wants another husband? Does that husband move in with wife #2 and all her fellow wives and husband #1? What if husband #2 has one or more other wives of his own already? What happens if wife #3 wants a divorce? What is she entitled to in the divorce settlement? How are child visitation rights handled if there is a divorce? Does wife #2, who mostly cared for the children, but isn't their biological mother, get any visitation?

Polygamist marriages would be incredibly complex and messy just in the legal details in ways no two person marriage could ever be, and that, not any moral qualms, is why I don't see them as practical. A gay marriage works virtually identically to a heterosexual marriage (as does a gay divorce), but throw an extra person (or three or so) into the mix and the potential complications abound. If someone can figure out how to make it work in a way it is fair to all parties, I'm fine with it.
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