Please forgive my naiveté of the issue of Immigration into my country.. - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-10-2006, 08:23 AM   #1
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:36 AM
Please forgive my naiveté of the issue of Immigration into my country..

Ok, I simply do not understand why people who want to live in the USA from other countries do not immigrate to the USA legally.

I mean simply, I do not get it.

Why wouldn't an indivual want to sleep better at night knowing that he went or was going thru a process of attaining citizenship of a country that he chose to reside and earn a living in?

Admittedly, I truly am ignorant and unschooled on this subject.

So, I was looking for answers here since we have a plethora of astute minds, who on most occassions are better versed than me on a few subjects.

Is it that hard to become a US citizen?
What actually is the process?

Please help me understand, so I at least can understand a non citizen's perspective.

thx,

d.b.a.dbs
__________________

diamond is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 08:44 AM   #2
Refugee
 
AussieU2fanman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Posts: 1,638
Local Time: 01:06 AM
Immigration from which country? Every country is different. I'm assuming much of the illegal immigration comes from people whos escaping a country due to corruption or civil war etc. where the proper process to apply for migration into the US is too beurocratic/time consuming or simply non-existant, that's maybe why there is such a profuse amount of illegal immigrants.
People from wealthier countries who aren't experiencing some sort of plight in their home country will find the process much more comfortable as they probably aren't under any pressure due to civil unrest etc. Then again I'm Australian and I know absolutely nothing about the issue.
__________________

AussieU2fanman is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 08:51 AM   #3
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 07:36 AM

Illegal Immigration is an issue in the USA where I live, esp people arriving from Mexico, and I'm torn on this issue.

dbs
diamond is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 09:02 AM   #4
Refugee
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,760
Local Time: 03:36 PM
I feel your pain, I dont know the actual process but I know it's gotten much harder since 9/11
V Nura is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 09:15 AM   #5
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: mar-a-lago delenda est
Posts: 20,582
Local Time: 10:36 AM
I don't really know the process for the US, but in Canada it is extraordinarily time-consuming and costly to immigrate legally. You first have to meet a number of conditions such as skills, income, savings, family situation, etc. to even be ELIGIBLE to immigrate. Then you have to apply, which costs an insane amount of money (hundreds of dollars) and requires dozens of different forms. After you've applied, the whole thing goes to the consulate in the nation you want to leave, then to Immigration Canada in Ottawa, both of whom can reject the application outright at any point for any number of reasons. The whole process can take more than a year to complete, and then once that's all done (and more fees are paid) you still have to pay your way here and set yourself up.

The only way someone in poverty could hope to come to Canada is through refugee status. I'd be willing to wager that a lot of the illegals, particularly in Arizona where you are db9, are poorer folks in Mexico. They probably can't afford to immigrate through the proper process, but certainly you can't claim refugee status from Mexico, which takes away the other option, and leaves only border-hopping to get to the "land of opportunity".

It's not just poor folks, either. We have an illegal immigration issue right now with a family from Russia, the Bondarenkos. They've been living out of their sailboat, sailing around the world for the past 20 years. Both their kids were born on the boat in international waters (and therefore are stateless). Vitaly Bondarenko, the family head, and his wife sailed to Halifax and decided they'd had enough of sailing around and wanted to stay here. The problem is that they didn't go through the proper process (they didn't file any paperwork, they just sailed into the Harbour and dropped anchor). They've been living here for about two or three years though, and their kids are both in school here and they've bought a home in Lunenburg (a small town around Halifax). The argument is over whether they should be allowed to stay or not - clearly they're model immigrants, the kind of people we'd love to attract here. I've met Vitaly once and he's one of the kindest people I've ever known. But at the same time they're still technically illegals, so the government wants to deport them.

Last I heard though, the Bondarenkos are being allowed a period of a year to file their paperwork and become legal landed immigrants. But they had to leave Canada to do it.

The point of that story is that it's a lot more complicated than "illegals are poor Mexicans". It's damn tough to get into North America legally.
DaveC is online now  
Old 11-10-2006, 09:57 AM   #6
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 08:36 AM
It´s a deeply rooted issue. To think that a friggin´ wall in the year 2006 was all that the richest government in the world could come up with as a solution is just ridiculous.

I´ve heard of people who illegaly immigrated in to the country who are now earning 8K salaries a month just by cleaning houses and gardening. Or becoming hairstylists.

Those salaries here in Honduras are INSANE. You have to be a highly ranked executive to earn 8K a month. My boss is a lawyer and a pretty good one too and he earns around 3k a month and he is one of the two best paid lawyers in the city.

What I´m trying to say is that some of these people are so desperate to earn some money and a better living for those that depend on them that they will look for "the american dream" at all costs. Sometimes it even costs them their lives. Why don´t they do it legally? They can´t afford it. It´s really that simple.

A lot of people survive here solely on the money that´s being earned in the US and sent back home.

I thought it was a ver sad low blow when the US decided that a wall was the best solution. A division. The guys who first landed on the moon only thought of a wall to stop illegal immigration...

Anyway, to stop illegal immigration you have to help the economies of under developed countries (which is also the equivalent of hell freezing over) and give people a better quality of life which, for now, is only accesible in the US.
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:17 AM   #7
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy


I´ve heard of people who illegaly immigrated in to the country who are now earning 8K salaries a month just by cleaning houses and gardening. Or becoming hairstylists.

Those salaries here in Honduras are INSANE.

Um, that does sound insane, unless they're stylists for celebrities or have PhDs in horticulture. If that's true, I'm quitting my job to clean houses! The average American's annual salary is $39,795 (seems high to me, I thought it was more like $25,000, but that's what one website said). I only know two people in my extended family that make more than that, but I've never considered us poor. Well, maybe compared to some of the company we keep around our community, but anyway...

I have NO problem with people from Central America immigrating to the US, even if it's just to make money to send home. One of my best friends did EXACTLY that. He came here for college and is now in the process of finalizing his immigration and retaining a good job. The ironic thing is, of everyone I know, HE is the most against illegal immigration.

No one's saying we don't want people to come here. All that's being said (at least based on diamond's post) is that they should do it legally.
Liesje is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:32 AM   #8
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 08:36 AM
Did you read the part where I said people can´t afford it?

EDIT: The whole logic behing the 8k is as follows.

$100 per 2 hours cleaning a house. Normally they would clean 4 houses and on good days they would clean 5 houses. In a month, it would be no less that 8k.

...and another thing. I´m betting your friend is really rich and that´s why he has no clue what poor people go through in these countries. I think he´s inconsiderate.
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:36 AM   #9
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
Did you read about the part where I said people can´t afford it?
Yeah. There's a lot of things I can't afford either, but that doesn't mean I can just do them anyway.

Did you read anywhere where I said I support the current policies? No, because I don't support them and never said I did. I don't think it should be nearly as costly to immigrate, and that goes for ANY country. But that doesn't mean I think it's OK for people to do ahead and do it illegally. Maybe part of the reason it is so costly is because so many people do it illegally, we're being ripped off as far as taxes and social security. Sure, there are a lot of opportunities in the US most people wouldn't have in second- or third-world countries, but these come at a cost.
Liesje is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:38 AM   #10
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 08:36 AM
What cost? Being BORN there? I´m betting that cost you a lot...
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:38 AM   #11
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: mar-a-lago delenda est
Posts: 20,582
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje

No one's saying we don't want people to come here. All that's being said (at least based on diamond's post) is that they should do it legally.
But why price immigration out of the reach of the people who would benefit from it most?

There's no way the United States (or Canada) is going to accept a refugee claim from Central or South America anymore (unless it's from Colombia), so what other option does that leave for those who are barely surviving as is, especially with the world's most prosperous nation only a short fence-hop away?
DaveC is online now  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:41 AM   #12
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy


...and another thing. I´m betting your friend is really rich and that´s why he has no clue what poor people go through in these countries. I think he´s inconsiderate.
He's not rich. He grew up on a rural farm and was lucky to have access to electricity. He's the only one in his family that's educated and speaks multiple languages. He lived being poor in El Salvador until he was 18 and visits frequently. He was able to afford school because our school has program for people like him and provide MASSIVE amounts of financial aid.

You should stop making assumptions about people because it just hurts your arguments in the end.
Liesje is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:42 AM   #13
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveC


But why price immigration out of the reach of the people who would benefit from it most?

There's no way the United States (or Canada) is going to accept a refugee claim from Central or South America anymore (unless it's from Colombia), so what other option does that leave for those who are barely surviving as is, especially with the world's most prosperous nation only a short fence-hop away?
Like I just said, I don't agree with the prices at all. I'm not poor, but even someone like ME would never be able to consider moving to Canada or the UK. I don't really agree with many of the current policies, but I don't condone doing things illegally.

There needs to be a more fair solution. The people who really NEED to immigrate are the ones getting overlooked. I think we're all in agreement on that.
Liesje is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:49 AM   #14
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Justin24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: San Mateo
Posts: 6,716
Local Time: 07:36 AM
You all know my stance on this issue.

I am in support of Immigration as long as it's done legally. If they receive political asylum like my friends from columbia recently got then praise for them. The problem I see with illegal immigration especially in the border town, is hospitals having to shut down because of unpaid medical bills, premiums going up. Most of it can be attributed to illegal immigration. In Mariposa county the prisons are full 30 % of the inmates are illegal immigrants. The sherrif who I support is now making sure the illegal immigrants who are inmates at his prisons learn english before going back, so learn a new skill before heading home.
The inmates support that, but not a Spanish radio DJ which is ridiculous. The sherrif is actually helping them out in the long run, he is not taking there language away but teaching them for free.
This country needs a stronger enforcement policy on immigration. The wall could be a bad idea but even if policies changed it still would not stop the inflow from illegal immigrants arriving from the north, south, east and west. Do you think mexico has a better immigration policy than the US, Canada?? no this is our country and we should be able to do what is nessecary to protect it, mexico has a right to do the same with it's souther border, etc...
This is what I dont get. The people in Oaxaca, Mexico rose up against the local government and I believe is still continuing, why cant that lead to a change for mexico to improve it's economy, leadership roles in the government etc... If the people in Oaxaca are not afraid to stand up, then why should the rest of mexico be.


There thats all I have to say for now.
Justin24 is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:49 AM   #15
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: mar-a-lago delenda est
Posts: 20,582
Local Time: 10:36 AM
I can see your point, Lies. I think we're arguing the same side.

I don't think that illegal immigration is a good thing for the United States by any stretch of the imagination. But some of the nation's most hard-working and genuinely nice people are illegals. These people have great benefit to society, they just feel that to get what they deserve from society in return they have no other choice. I'd probably consider it myself if I were in the same position.

If the requirements to immigration were lessened, then those people would have a chance to give their benefit to society in an above-board way. I'm not suggesting that standards be lowered, or that security should be sacrificed for the sake of getting a few more legal bodies through the door, only that the prohibitive cost and time it takes to immigrate be reduced. The immigrant benefits, and America benefits. What's the problem?

Unfortunately I think the INS likes the revenue a little too much. So instead, they build a wall. Yeesh.
DaveC is online now  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:50 AM   #16
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Liesje


He's not rich. He grew up on a rural farm and was lucky to have access to electricity. He's the only one in his family that's educated and speaks multiple languages. He lived being poor in El Salvador until he was 18 and visits frequently. He was able to afford school because our school has program for people like him and provide MASSIVE amounts of financial aid.

You should stop making assumptions about people because it just hurts your arguments in the end.
Oh ok. I apologize. The school I studied in was the highest educaton available in this country and most of my classmates are studying in the US and so I figured this is one of the people you met. Some of them are inconsiderate and lack a lot of empathy for other people who are not as "capable" financially as they are. I´m very glad to hear your friend had acces to that kind of program.
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:52 AM   #17
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: mar-a-lago delenda est
Posts: 20,582
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
This is what I dont get. The people in Oaxaca, Mexico rose up against the local government and I believe is still continuing, why cant that lead to a change for mexico to improve it's economy, leadership roles in the government etc... If the people in Oaxaca are not afraid to stand up, then why should the rest of mexico be.
To be fair, Oaxaca's different than the rest of Mexico, just as Arizona is vastly different from Connecticut. The issues are different - if people from Arizona rise up because the government won't pay for desert irrigation projects, it's not likely to get much support from someone in, say, New Jersey.

Do you know why the Oaxacans are revolting? (this is a genuine question, I really have no idea why they're so upset with the Mexican government)
DaveC is online now  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:53 AM   #18
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 10:36 AM
DaveC, I completely agree. I just feel that part of the problem is that there are so many here already. People lose a LOT of money because of this, so no one's too keen on just granting blanket amnesty. Any decisions that are made will somehow affect those that have already come illegally, so how to we take that into consideration? We can't just deport people, and we can't just give free rides, so how to we make it fair for EVERYONE?... for the people who want to come here illegally but have no way, the people already here illegally, and the people who've always been here legally paying their taxes, social security, and such...
Liesje is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:55 AM   #19
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 08:36 AM
Good question.
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 11-10-2006, 10:55 AM   #20
Blue Crack Addict
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In the dog house
Posts: 19,563
Local Time: 10:36 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy


Oh ok. I apologize. The school I studied in was the highest educaton available in this country and most of my classmates are studying in the US and so I figured this is one of the people you met. Some of them are inconsiderate and lack a lot of empathy for other people who are not as "capable" financially as they are. I´m very glad to hear your friend had acces to that kind of program.
No, that was not him. See, I could complain that I had to pay twice as much tuition because I WAS born here and I'm white, but I value diversity and giving people a chance. I'm happy that part of my taxes and tuition go into these types of programs that bring people like Jose to the US for education and job opportunities.
__________________

Liesje is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×