Please forgive my naiveté of the issue of Immigration into my country..

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diamond

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Ok, I simply do not understand why people who want to live in the USA from other countries do not immigrate to the USA legally.

I mean simply, I do not get it.

Why wouldn't an indivual want to sleep better at night knowing that he went or was going thru a process of attaining citizenship of a country that he chose to reside and earn a living in?

Admittedly, I truly am ignorant and unschooled on this subject.

So, I was looking for answers here since we have a plethora of astute minds, who on most occassions are better versed than me on a few subjects.

Is it that hard to become a US citizen?
What actually is the process?

Please help me understand, so I at least can understand a non citizen's perspective.

thx,

d.b.a.dbs
 
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Immigration from which country? Every country is different. I'm assuming much of the illegal immigration comes from people whos escaping a country due to corruption or civil war etc. where the proper process to apply for migration into the US is too beurocratic/time consuming or simply non-existant, that's maybe why there is such a profuse amount of illegal immigrants.
People from wealthier countries who aren't experiencing some sort of plight in their home country will find the process much more comfortable as they probably aren't under any pressure due to civil unrest etc. Then again I'm Australian and I know absolutely nothing about the issue. :|
 
Illegal Immigration is an issue in the USA where I live, esp people arriving from Mexico, and I'm torn on this issue.

dbs
 
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I feel your pain, I dont know the actual process but I know it's gotten much harder since 9/11
 
I don't really know the process for the US, but in Canada it is extraordinarily time-consuming and costly to immigrate legally. You first have to meet a number of conditions such as skills, income, savings, family situation, etc. to even be ELIGIBLE to immigrate. Then you have to apply, which costs an insane amount of money (hundreds of dollars) and requires dozens of different forms. After you've applied, the whole thing goes to the consulate in the nation you want to leave, then to Immigration Canada in Ottawa, both of whom can reject the application outright at any point for any number of reasons. The whole process can take more than a year to complete, and then once that's all done (and more fees are paid) you still have to pay your way here and set yourself up.

The only way someone in poverty could hope to come to Canada is through refugee status. I'd be willing to wager that a lot of the illegals, particularly in Arizona where you are db9, are poorer folks in Mexico. They probably can't afford to immigrate through the proper process, but certainly you can't claim refugee status from Mexico, which takes away the other option, and leaves only border-hopping to get to the "land of opportunity".

It's not just poor folks, either. We have an illegal immigration issue right now with a family from Russia, the Bondarenkos. They've been living out of their sailboat, sailing around the world for the past 20 years. Both their kids were born on the boat in international waters (and therefore are stateless). Vitaly Bondarenko, the family head, and his wife sailed to Halifax and decided they'd had enough of sailing around and wanted to stay here. The problem is that they didn't go through the proper process (they didn't file any paperwork, they just sailed into the Harbour and dropped anchor). They've been living here for about two or three years though, and their kids are both in school here and they've bought a home in Lunenburg (a small town around Halifax). The argument is over whether they should be allowed to stay or not - clearly they're model immigrants, the kind of people we'd love to attract here. I've met Vitaly once and he's one of the kindest people I've ever known. But at the same time they're still technically illegals, so the government wants to deport them.

Last I heard though, the Bondarenkos are being allowed a period of a year to file their paperwork and become legal landed immigrants. But they had to leave Canada to do it. :down:

The point of that story is that it's a lot more complicated than "illegals are poor Mexicans". It's damn tough to get into North America legally.
 
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It´s a deeply rooted issue. To think that a friggin´ wall in the year 2006 was all that the richest government in the world could come up with as a solution is just ridiculous.

I´ve heard of people who illegaly immigrated in to the country who are now earning 8K salaries a month just by cleaning houses and gardening. Or becoming hairstylists.

Those salaries here in Honduras are INSANE. You have to be a highly ranked executive to earn 8K a month. My boss is a lawyer and a pretty good one too and he earns around 3k a month and he is one of the two best paid lawyers in the city.

What I´m trying to say is that some of these people are so desperate to earn some money and a better living for those that depend on them that they will look for "the american dream" at all costs. Sometimes it even costs them their lives. Why don´t they do it legally? They can´t afford it. It´s really that simple.

A lot of people survive here solely on the money that´s being earned in the US and sent back home.

I thought it was a ver sad low blow when the US decided that a wall was the best solution. A division. The guys who first landed on the moon only thought of a wall to stop illegal immigration...

Anyway, to stop illegal immigration you have to help the economies of under developed countries (which is also the equivalent of hell freezing over) and give people a better quality of life which, for now, is only accesible in the US.
 
BrownEyedBoy said:


I´ve heard of people who illegaly immigrated in to the country who are now earning 8K salaries a month just by cleaning houses and gardening. Or becoming hairstylists.

Those salaries here in Honduras are INSANE.


Um, that does sound insane, unless they're stylists for celebrities or have PhDs in horticulture. If that's true, I'm quitting my job to clean houses! The average American's annual salary is $39,795 (seems high to me, I thought it was more like $25,000, but that's what one website said). I only know two people in my extended family that make more than that, but I've never considered us poor. Well, maybe compared to some of the company we keep around our community, but anyway...

I have NO problem with people from Central America immigrating to the US, even if it's just to make money to send home. One of my best friends did EXACTLY that. He came here for college and is now in the process of finalizing his immigration and retaining a good job. The ironic thing is, of everyone I know, HE is the most against illegal immigration.

No one's saying we don't want people to come here. All that's being said (at least based on diamond's post) is that they should do it legally.
 
Did you read the part where I said people can´t afford it?

EDIT: The whole logic behing the 8k is as follows.

$100 per 2 hours cleaning a house. Normally they would clean 4 houses and on good days they would clean 5 houses. In a month, it would be no less that 8k.

...and another thing. I´m betting your friend is really rich and that´s why he has no clue what poor people go through in these countries. I think he´s inconsiderate.
 
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BrownEyedBoy said:
Did you read about the part where I said people can´t afford it?

Yeah. There's a lot of things I can't afford either, but that doesn't mean I can just do them anyway.

Did you read anywhere where I said I support the current policies? No, because I don't support them and never said I did. I don't think it should be nearly as costly to immigrate, and that goes for ANY country. But that doesn't mean I think it's OK for people to do ahead and do it illegally. Maybe part of the reason it is so costly is because so many people do it illegally, we're being ripped off as far as taxes and social security. Sure, there are a lot of opportunities in the US most people wouldn't have in second- or third-world countries, but these come at a cost.
 
Liesje said:

No one's saying we don't want people to come here. All that's being said (at least based on diamond's post) is that they should do it legally.

But why price immigration out of the reach of the people who would benefit from it most?

There's no way the United States (or Canada) is going to accept a refugee claim from Central or South America anymore (unless it's from Colombia), so what other option does that leave for those who are barely surviving as is, especially with the world's most prosperous nation only a short fence-hop away?
 
BrownEyedBoy said:


...and another thing. I´m betting your friend is really rich and that´s why he has no clue what poor people go through in these countries. I think he´s inconsiderate.

He's not rich. He grew up on a rural farm and was lucky to have access to electricity. He's the only one in his family that's educated and speaks multiple languages. He lived being poor in El Salvador until he was 18 and visits frequently. He was able to afford school because our school has program for people like him and provide MASSIVE amounts of financial aid.

You should stop making assumptions about people because it just hurts your arguments in the end.
 
DaveC said:


But why price immigration out of the reach of the people who would benefit from it most?

There's no way the United States (or Canada) is going to accept a refugee claim from Central or South America anymore (unless it's from Colombia), so what other option does that leave for those who are barely surviving as is, especially with the world's most prosperous nation only a short fence-hop away?

Like I just said, I don't agree with the prices at all. I'm not poor, but even someone like ME would never be able to consider moving to Canada or the UK. I don't really agree with many of the current policies, but I don't condone doing things illegally.

There needs to be a more fair solution. The people who really NEED to immigrate are the ones getting overlooked. I think we're all in agreement on that.
 
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You all know my stance on this issue.

I am in support of Immigration as long as it's done legally. If they receive political asylum like my friends from columbia recently got then praise for them. The problem I see with illegal immigration especially in the border town, is hospitals having to shut down because of unpaid medical bills, premiums going up. Most of it can be attributed to illegal immigration. In Mariposa county the prisons are full 30 % of the inmates are illegal immigrants. The sherrif who I support is now making sure the illegal immigrants who are inmates at his prisons learn english before going back, so learn a new skill before heading home.
The inmates support that, but not a Spanish radio DJ which is ridiculous. The sherrif is actually helping them out in the long run, he is not taking there language away but teaching them for free.
This country needs a stronger enforcement policy on immigration. The wall could be a bad idea but even if policies changed it still would not stop the inflow from illegal immigrants arriving from the north, south, east and west. Do you think mexico has a better immigration policy than the US, Canada?? no this is our country and we should be able to do what is nessecary to protect it, mexico has a right to do the same with it's souther border, etc...
This is what I dont get. The people in Oaxaca, Mexico rose up against the local government and I believe is still continuing, why cant that lead to a change for mexico to improve it's economy, leadership roles in the government etc... If the people in Oaxaca are not afraid to stand up, then why should the rest of mexico be.


There thats all I have to say for now.
 
I can see your point, Lies. I think we're arguing the same side.

I don't think that illegal immigration is a good thing for the United States by any stretch of the imagination. But some of the nation's most hard-working and genuinely nice people are illegals. These people have great benefit to society, they just feel that to get what they deserve from society in return they have no other choice. I'd probably consider it myself if I were in the same position.

If the requirements to immigration were lessened, then those people would have a chance to give their benefit to society in an above-board way. I'm not suggesting that standards be lowered, or that security should be sacrificed for the sake of getting a few more legal bodies through the door, only that the prohibitive cost and time it takes to immigrate be reduced. The immigrant benefits, and America benefits. What's the problem?

Unfortunately I think the INS likes the revenue a little too much. So instead, they build a wall. Yeesh. :crack:
 
Liesje said:


He's not rich. He grew up on a rural farm and was lucky to have access to electricity. He's the only one in his family that's educated and speaks multiple languages. He lived being poor in El Salvador until he was 18 and visits frequently. He was able to afford school because our school has program for people like him and provide MASSIVE amounts of financial aid.

You should stop making assumptions about people because it just hurts your arguments in the end.

Oh ok. I apologize. The school I studied in was the highest educaton available in this country and most of my classmates are studying in the US and so I figured this is one of the people you met. Some of them are inconsiderate and lack a lot of empathy for other people who are not as "capable" financially as they are. I´m very glad to hear your friend had acces to that kind of program.
 
Justin24 said:
This is what I dont get. The people in Oaxaca, Mexico rose up against the local government and I believe is still continuing, why cant that lead to a change for mexico to improve it's economy, leadership roles in the government etc... If the people in Oaxaca are not afraid to stand up, then why should the rest of mexico be.

To be fair, Oaxaca's different than the rest of Mexico, just as Arizona is vastly different from Connecticut. The issues are different - if people from Arizona rise up because the government won't pay for desert irrigation projects, it's not likely to get much support from someone in, say, New Jersey.

Do you know why the Oaxacans are revolting? (this is a genuine question, I really have no idea why they're so upset with the Mexican government)
 
DaveC, I completely agree. I just feel that part of the problem is that there are so many here already. People lose a LOT of money because of this, so no one's too keen on just granting blanket amnesty. Any decisions that are made will somehow affect those that have already come illegally, so how to we take that into consideration? We can't just deport people, and we can't just give free rides, so how to we make it fair for EVERYONE?... for the people who want to come here illegally but have no way, the people already here illegally, and the people who've always been here legally paying their taxes, social security, and such...
 
BrownEyedBoy said:


Oh ok. I apologize. The school I studied in was the highest educaton available in this country and most of my classmates are studying in the US and so I figured this is one of the people you met. Some of them are inconsiderate and lack a lot of empathy for other people who are not as "capable" financially as they are. I´m very glad to hear your friend had acces to that kind of program.

No, that was not him. See, I could complain that I had to pay twice as much tuition because I WAS born here and I'm white, but I value diversity and giving people a chance. I'm happy that part of my taxes and tuition go into these types of programs that bring people like Jose to the US for education and job opportunities.
 
Liesje said:
DaveC, I completely agree. I just feel that part of the problem is that there are so many here already. People lose a LOT of money because of this, so no one's too keen on just granting blanket amnesty. Any decisions that are made will somehow affect those that have already come illegally, so how to we take that into consideration? We can't just deport people, and we can't just give free rides, so how to we make it fair for EVERYONE?... for the people who want to come here illegally but have no way, the people already here illegally, and the people who've always been here legally paying their taxes, social security, and such...

So how do we fix the problem, then?

Do we offer the opportunity for all illegals to apply for legal status at a MUCH discounted price, then actually do the background checks that go along with it? Toss out those who shouldn't be there anyways, and keep the people who are just looking for a better life.

It's a complicated problem with a very complex solution.
 
Here is the story on Oaxaca.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6102018.stm
"Q&A: Crisis in Oaxaca
The Mexican state of Oaxaca has seen five months of protests against Governor Ulises Ruiz. Here we look at the background to the conflict which has claimed at least six lives.

Protesters set up barricades in the centre of the city
What are the origins of the crisis?

On 1 May 2006, teachers in Oaxaca handed in a document listing their grievances and demands. They then went on strike, saying they had received no answer from the local authorities.

The crisis reached a new level on 14 June, when local police tried to remove the protesters who had, since 22 May been occupying the centre of the city. Some 750 police officers took part in the operation. Media reports at the time said at least four people had died in the clashes - a claim denied by the local authorities.

What do the teachers want?

They are demanding better pay, as well as a series of measures to help poorer pupils, including: breakfasts for schoolchildren, scholarships, uniforms, shoes, medical services and textbooks. The teachers are also demanding the resignation of the Oaxaca Governor, Ulises Ruiz.

Are other groups supporting the teachers?

Yes. The teachers' movement is backed by an umbrella group known as the Popular Assembly of the Peoples of Oaxaca (Appo), formed on 17 June by 365 grassroots organisations including unions, indigenous and peasant groups and women's movements.

The protest movement has also received the backing of Zapatista rebel leader Subcomandante Marcos and former left-wing presidential candidate Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador.

What form has the Appo's protest taken?

The Appo describes its movement as one of "peaceful and civil resistance". The demonstrators have occupied a number of radio stations, public buildings and erected barricades in the areas they control.

The movement has held five mass protest marches. The last one attracted about 900,000 people, according to the organisers.

Why are they seeking the removal of the governor?

The Appo says the Mr Ruiz's resignation is a key condition for any negotiated solution to the conflict.

The teachers say he has not met their demands and blame him for the violence on 14 June. Protesters accuse him of corruption and repressive tactics against dissenters.

How many people have been affected by the teachers' strike?

An estimated 1.3 million students - from 14,000 schools - have not been able to attend classes since May.

Last week, teachers voted to return to class, but their union said certain conditions needed to be met before that could happen.

What is the federal government doing about the crisis?

On Monday 30 October, senators unanimously approved a resolution calling on Mr Ruiz to "consider resigning from office to help restore law and order", a call that was rejected by the Oaxaca governor.

After resisting calls to send federal forces to Oaxaca, President Vicente Fox's finally did so on 28 October. Security forces retook the centre of the city at the weekend, but the violence has continued and the protesters have regrouped."
 
I have a question? Do you think these two border patrol agents should have gone to jail?

"http://www.talkleft.com/story/2006/10/21/14637/996
Border Agents Get 11 & 12 years for Shooting Pot Smuggler
By Jeralyn, Section Crime in the News
Posted on Sat Oct 21, 2006 at 01:46:00 AM EST
Last year while patrolling the border, two border agents, Ignacio "Nacho" Ramos and Jose Alonso Compean, stopped a van carrying 743 pounds of pot. The driver, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, fled across the border and both agents fired. One of the bullets hit Aldrete-Davila in the behind.

Federal prosecutors convinced a jury in March that the agents had shot a defenseless man and schemed to cover it up. Much of the evidence against them came from the drug runner, Osvaldo Aldrete-Davila, who reported the shooting to a friend at the Border Patrol in Arizona. Aldrete-Davila was given immunity from prosecution by the U.S. attorney's office.

Yesterday, the agents were were sentenced to federal prison terms of 11 years and 12 years.

The Minutemen decried the sentence. Why?


The case has become a cause celebre among activists against illegal immigration and advocates of stronger border security, who say it epitomizes misplaced priorities of federal prosecutors as well as the predicament of Border Patrol agents, who must fight heavily armed criminals with little or no force.

I side with the man who was shot:

Walter Boyaki, an attorney representing the smuggler, commended federal prosecutors for having the courage to carry on with a politically unpopular case, and argued that if the agents had not been punished, it would have "put a bull's-eye on every illegal alien.""
 
DaveC said:


So how do we fix the problem, then?

Do we offer the opportunity for all illegals to apply for legal status at a MUCH discounted price, then actually do the background checks that go along with it? Toss out those who shouldn't be there anyways, and keep the people who are just looking for a better life.

It's a complicated problem with a very complex solution.

I'm interested in knowing more about how these costs work. I wouldn't expect immigration to be free by any means. Do you know if costs have to be paid up front? It would make more sense to me that only a very small amount would be due up front, and once the paper work was processed, the person would pay off whatever is required later on. Otherwise, it totally defeats the purpose of coming here (or Canada) to start from scratch and having to pay like $1500 to cross the border. If the costs were lowered considerably and could be paid in increments, it would be easier to backtrack and require current illegals to file paper work and also pay off the cost.
 
I'm not fully sure, but I think a fee is paid up front (as a "deposit") when the application is submitted, and then once it's approved the rest of the payment has to be made.

I have a question? Do you think these two border patrol agents should have gone to jail?

I think the issue here is the fact that the guy was trying to smuggle nearly 750 pounds of weed across the border, not that he had entered illegally. And yes, I do think they should have gone to jail.
 
I don't know what the costs involved in an "average" citizenship case ultimately amount to, but the process does take many years for most, and I'd assume that's another motive for trying to get around it. First you have to acquire Longterm Permanent Resident (LPR) status--i.e., get a Green Card--which in itself usually takes several years. This begins with a qualifying relative or employer petitioning US Citizenship & Immigration Services (USCIS) for your right to apply for a visa (if it's an employer, they must first prove that no current US citizens or LPRs are available to fill the position for which you'd be hired). Once the petition is approved, then you (or your employer) apply to the State Department for an immigration visa. This process takes anywhere from around 6 months (it's faster if it's an employer filing) to several years, depending on the quotas for the country you're coming from and various other factors. Then once you have the visa, you're ready apply to USCIS for permanent residency status, which also requires assembling a large array of documentation--tax records, medical records, employment records, etc. Currently this process averages about 3 years, according to their website. Often during this time the visa expires, so you have to leave the country and then start that process all over again. LPR status does NOT give you the right to bring your spouse or children to the US.

There's also the "Green Card Lottery," which is mostly for prospective immigrants from countries with low rates of immigration to the US, and which if you're selected allows you to bypass much of the above. However, proportionally very few immigrants acquire LPR status this way, as selection is random (relative to the limited country-of-origin pool) and the number of Green Cards available through lottery is very limited.

Once LPR status is obtained, then you must reside continuously in the US as an LPR for 5 years before being eligible to apply for citizenship, which requires basic command of English (except in the case of some longstanding older LPRs), as well as of course passing the citizenship exam.

The only fees I was able to find data on (and these are only averages) is that the immigration visa application fee is about $40 (each time), the LPR status application fee is about $30, and the citizenship application fee is about $50. But presumably there are in practice many other costs involved (travel, legal consultation, assembling the needed documentation, vaccinations, etc.).

Of course there are a zillion and one potential exceptions to any or all of the above involved, but so far as I know this is roughly how a "typical" citizenship acquisition process currently works.
 
Whether those patrol agents should have gone to jail is a matter for a court to decide based on the criminal code in the state they were charged. The fact the guy was an illegal smuggler does not mean you get to toss the criminal code aside and behave any way you want. We have entrenched laws for a reason.
 
anitram said:
Whether those patrol agents should have gone to jail is a matter for a court to decide based on the criminal code in the state they were charged. The fact the guy was an illegal smuggler does not mean you get to toss the criminal code aside and behave any way you want. We have entrenched laws for a reason.

This is what amazes me. That everyone says there are laws and that what the Patrol Agents did was against the law. The Smuggler broke the law and so do millions of people who come in Illegaly from other countries. So it's ok to break one law (entering illegally) but to take down a smuggler is wrong?

Remember smugglers can bring in drugs, sex slaves weapons etc..

The African slaves brought to america were brought by smugglers weren't they?
 
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Justin24 said:


This is what amazes me. That everyone says there are laws and that what the Patrol Agents did was against the law. The Smuggler broke the law and so do millions of people who come in Illegaly from other countries. So it's ok to break one law (entering illegally) but to take down a smuggler is wrong?

Remember smugglers can bring in drugs, sex slaves weapons etc..

The African slaves brought to america were brought by smugglers weren't they?

Justin, this logic doesn't make sense. By this logic all policemen, FBI agents, etc would have no need to follow the law.
 
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