Piss Christ Thread Here

[Angela Harlem]

Interesting interpretations. Does anyone know if the artist ever expressed his/her point of view on what it stands for?

This is something I am rather curious on. I wouldn't be surprised if the artist has taken the stance of letting the viewer interpret as they wish and in a way I hope he/she perhaps has. I think doing this is an intelligent move in controversial instances, and allows the viewer to find an opinion they are comfortable with, once the gut reaction has subsided.

 

[deep]

Now you're just being silly.

Who is silly?

Put back the money taken for 'abstinence' programs, say AIDS groups

by Eric Resnick

Cleveland--Ohio AIDS activists and service organization leaders called for the state and federal government to restore cut funding and stop shifting money toward “abstinence-only” sex education programs which, they said, don’t work.

“I feel a greater sense of emergency than I have felt in a very long time,” said AIDS Taskforce of Greater Cleveland director Earl Pike.

Rev. Tracey Lind, dean of Trinity Cathedral where the February 10 briefing was held, opened it by questioning the morality of spending millions of dollars on ineffective abstinence-only programs, leaving methods that prevent AIDS without money.

Abstinence-only until marriage, a concept promoted by the religious right and the Bush administration, requires schools to teach children and teens that sexual activity outside of marriage is likely to have harmful psychological and physical effects, and that a mutually faithful monogamous relationship in marriage is the expected standard of human sexual activity.

 

[echo0001]

Yeah yeah yeah. You write music with no help from the government.

Once you've got the damn instrument, how much funding does it take to write a song?

However, there is a ridiculous cycle at work.

Our schools teach next to nothing about art to the average student (ie., those who do not actively seek it out). Therefore there are many people who don't know the first thing about the place of art in society, and who couldn't care less, and who will judge everything that isn't puppies and kitties and large eyed waifs as controversial and unacceptable.

Therefore, our government is paying for the cultural ignorance generated by it's own educational system by subsiding art...because at least a few people in government realize that a culture is defined, in part, according to its art.

 

[echo0001]

On the sport versus the arts: when I was in high school, the marching band was able to make a trip every four years to play in a bowl game parade. Everybody involved had a lot of fun, great experience, etc.

The can't afford it any more.

 

[deep]

Re: Re: Piss Christ Thread Here

Piss Christ
Andres Serrano, 1987

By Andrew Hudgins

If we did not know it was cow's blood and urine,
if we did not know that Serrano had for weeks
hoarded his urine in a plastic vat,
if we did not know the cross was gimcrack plastic,
we would assume it was too beautiful.
We would assume it was the resurrection,
glory, Christ transformed to light by light
because the blood and urine burn like a halo,
and light, as always, light makes it beautiful.

We are born between the urine and the feces,
Augustine says, and so was Christ, if there was a Christ,
skidding into this world as we do
on a tide of blood and urine. Blood, feces, urine—
what the fallen world is made of, and what we make.
He peed, ejaculated, shat, wept, bled—
bled under Pontius Pilate, and I assume
the mutilated god, the criminal,
humiliated god, voided himself
on the cross and the blood and urine smeared his legs
and he ascended bodily unto heaven,
and on the third day he rose into glory, which
is what we see here, the Piss Christ in glowing blood:
the whole irreducible point of the faith,
God thrown in human waste, submerged and shining.

We have grown used to beauty without horror.

We have grown used to useless beauty.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Yeah yeah yeah. You write music with no help from the government.

Once you've got the damn instrument, how much funding does it take to write a song?

Your snide remark sure makes it seem like you consider music composition a less worthy "art". Is that right? Or were you just being rude?

Anyway, the writing of the songs isn't necessarily the expensive part. The recording/realization of the song is the expensive part. I've spent a considerable amount of money on my musical endeavors in the last 20 years, thank you very much. A music studio doesn't come easy.

 

[BonosSaint]

Anyway, the writing of the songs isn't necessarily the expensive part. The recording/realization of the song is the expensive part. I've spent a considerable amount of money on my musical endeavors in the last 20 years, thank you very much. A music studio doesn't come easy.

He's got a point.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Who is silly?

Deep, was I or was I not talking about personal endeavors?

Since when is abstinence-only curriculum a "perosnal endeavor" instead of an educational issue.

Besides, i think parents should take the resposibility to teach their kids about sex. It's a friggin' shame that parents of this generation have so failed in that department (and many others) that the governement has no choice but to step in and take up the slack.

 

[BonosSaint]

Deep, was I or was I not talking about personal endeavors?

Since when is abstinence-only curriculum a "perosnal endeavor" instead of an educational issue.

Besides, i think parents should take the resposibility to teach their kids about sex. It's a friggin' shame that parents of this generation have so failed in that department (and many others) that the governement has no choice but to step in and take up the slack.

I think Deep was referring to Abstinence Only being more of a political or moral agenda than an educational one and therefore should not be fundable. (I have no problem with abstinence being included in a fully comprehensive sex education class.)
We are so off topic here, sorry.

 

[BVS]

I don't know what makes you think that stopping mandatory tax-funding of personal art projects would "destroy art". People create art every moment of every day without help from the government. I write music with no help from the government.

But how much gets seen or heard? Without funding very little.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Piss Christ demonstrates how a free and open society should operate, a controversial piece of work that is offensive to the beliefs of a sizable portion of the population is put on display and the debate about it goes on without staged and orchestrated violence. I like that a lot, because in the end religious belief is just ideas, and no ideas should be beyond repproach, we have the right to tear apart ideas and beliefs, we don't have the right to abuse people who think a certain way ~ but we can break down and argue against those concepts.

I consider the response to Piss Christ and the treatment of the the film (and filmmaker of) Submission to highlight the differences and problems with the role of religion in public discourse of Christianity and Islam in the western world. When we can see controversial art of that level being produced from within a society and it not resulting in deaths it is a good thing, it reflects well on the society. When in response to that art it gets widespread condemnation from the religious leaders and it leads to murders it raises serious questions about freedom of expression.

As for public funding, I think that works can be comissioned, but overall I do not see the benefits in funding arts councils outweighing the costs. If the government stopped funding the arts I am sure that other avenues would be found for expression of ideas.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Good art asks the questions society is afraid to ask of iteself.

I can agree with that statement.

Also, that totally sucks that you got in trouble for your article . I didn't realize you could get in trouble for asking for academic and art-related programs to have the same treatment as sports.

Angela

 

[hiphop]

But how much gets seen or heard? Without funding very little.

nah nah nah..

if you speak about exposing the music to a wide audience nationally, this is the part that record companies usually "fund" when they think the track has potential. promo money. most of the time, that money is recoupable later. however when you talk about the theoretical approach to a wide audience there is the internet and you don´t need any money at all..

regular support for musicians would be fine, so they can afford to write music freely, not depending on commercial thoughts that much.

and yeah, a studio is fucking expensive *sigh*

 

[Dreadsox]

deep I resent you putting that picture into this thread and attributing it to MY POST...

That is so offensive to me on many levels.

I would like a MOD to remove that....and attribute it to deep where it belongs.

 

[verte76]

Here's how an ordinary art show is financed. It is true that in many, but not all, cases, the exhibit gets some funding from the government. However, pick up the program at any one of these exhibits, and you'll see a huge list of private donors who made the show possible as well. It's not like these shows are exclusively paid for with public funds. Nine-tenths of the budget is going to be paid for by private companies. My studio's art shows are supported by private donations, not the government. When I recently sold a painting to Energen, which is the Alabama gas company, they had donated some money to the studio, and then the director said that the exhibit was a competition and asked them to buy their favorite. Much to my shock, they chose mine, which is the painting that's my avatar. It's an adaptation of Marc Chagall's "Rain". We have private individual donors as well as corporate donors. None of us do anything like "Piss Christ", either. Most of the artists who work at this studio are Christians. There's at least one who is not, but she's way too talented to do junk like that. She's had her work shown in exhibits all over the country. She is a native of Peru, and she does alot of traditional Peruvian scenes, plus really nice adaptations of Van Gogh and Dali.

 

[deep]

deep I resent you putting that picture into this thread and attributing it to MY POST...

That is so offensive to me on many levels.

I would like a MOD to remove that....and attribute it to deep where it belongs.

I thought I was helping you out by showing what you were referring to.

What is the point of making a thread about Piss Christ without any information about it
or an image of it?

I am sorry it upset you.

If the mods want to change it
that is fine with me.

 

[melon]

I don't know what makes you think that stopping mandatory tax-funding of personal art projects would "destroy art". People create art every moment of every day without help from the government. I write music with no help from the government.

But I assume you don't think you could ever have a career in music because it is cost-prohibitive?

As I've said before, the amount spent on art with taxes is miniscule, compared to the total national budget. If we think cutting that out will lower our taxes, think again! We have hundreds and hundreds of billions being spent on a "war" right now.

On the other hand, we have tax money being spent on "faith-based initiatives." I object to religions receiving government money. Do you suggest that we end "faith-based initiatives," because of the objections that I and many people have over it?

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

But I assume you don't think you could ever have a career in music because it is cost-prohibitive?

You assume wrong. First, I don't really care to have a career in music. But even if I did want that, it wouldn't be cost that holds me back, it would be:

(1)A lack of connections in the industry (it's not what you know, it's WHO you know)

(2) There is no market anymore for my style of music: Bach meets ABBA meets Tangerine Dream

 

[deep]

What is the point of making a thread about Piss Christ without any information about it
or an image of it?

 

[nbcrusader]

How does anyone define what is tasteful or offensive?

Is it undefinable, or is it just difficult to define?

The whole concept of "flaming" is just a reaction to a post that is considered lacking in taste or offensive.

 

[melon]

For every "offensive" art work, there's hundreds or thousands of perfectly clean artworks out there.

It is tantamount to the military. There's hundreds of thousands of honorable military servicemen who do their job every day. The bad apples get the press coverage, though, and ruin it for everyone else. "Piss Christ" is the bad apple.

Melon

 

[80sU2isBest]

For every "offensive" art work, there's hundreds or thousands of perfectly clean artworks out there.

It is tantamount to the military. There's hundreds of thousands of honorable military servicemen who do their job every day. The bad apples get the press coverage, though, and ruin it for everyone else. "Piss Christ" is the bad apple.

Melon

You're exactly right. It is always the wack jobs, extremists and haters that get the press.

I plead with you to remember that this phenomenon applies to Christians, as well as other groups. On the news, do you hear about Joe Schmoe who helps out at the shelter every week, or Suzy Schmoe who spends years in the 3rd world helping people irrigate their crops? Nope, you hear about the televangelists who say "send me 100,000 or God's gonna kill me" and other "so-called" Christians who insult, demean, and even abuse gays. But it is a small minority of Christians who behave that way. In fact, I'll tell you the truth; if someone tells me he's a Christian and yet the next day I see him abuse a homosexual, I'm not sure I would believe that he really is a Christian. The Bible says that being "born again" changes someone, and if someone thinks it's okay to abuse people, I have serious doubts as to his claim of being changed.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Is it undefinable, or is it just difficult to define?

The whole concept of "flaming" is just a reaction to a post that is considered lacking in taste or offensive.

Difficult, mainly. This example is easily definable. It's a load of garbage by any standard. It's seemingly intentionally insulting and offensive and even to those who do not strictly follow a Christian faith. I find it revolting, and I try to be open minded. but not to the point of tastlessness. Even without this, as an artwork, it's frankly crap.

 

[deep]

"In my work I always seek the unusual, or at least what is not traditionally considered beautiful. In my work I try to find the normal in the strange and vice-versa."

-- Andres Serrano, 1987

Andres Serrano caused a scandal in 1987 when he showed Piss Christ, a large photo of a crucifix submerged in a glass of urine.

The shock of this piece originates from the juxtaposition of what is to some the most holy of images with what is to many of those same people consider the most base and vile of substances. Some assumed that the submersion of the crucifix in urine was a prima facie statement of contempt for Christ and therefore blasphemous. In fact, Serrano was brought up in a devout Catholic family and religion was very significant to him as a child. In my view, he was examining our own mental categories of beauty and profanity, divinity, and humanity.

Revulsion at the sight of one's bodily products is natural and serves an evolutionary purpose. Serrano forces us to confront the nature of such revulsions with pictures of blood, semen, and urine by finding beauty in their depiction. He refuses to let us keep the divine from the profane in our minds.

Indeed, to have a mature appreciation of Christ's humanity -- most believers consider him to have been both fully human and fully divine -- one would have to confront the basest implications of his humanity. Jesus urinated and defecated like the rest of us.

 

[Angela Harlem]

A big enough controversy can hide/overshadow the worst talent in anyone. Serrano excelled at that.

 

[melon]

Postmodern art, in general, generates controversy. "Piss Christ" just epitomizes the notion of postmodern art, for better or for worse. And, like all postmodern art, you'll either love it for its irony or you'll hate it completely.

Melon

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

I think a good question to ask is where does art go from here? I guess it all depends on how someone defines art or what people think art should do for humanity.

I have been to the MOMA and the Metropolitan, and to tell you the truth, I leave the Met feeling inspired while I leave the MOMA with nothing but a huge question mark. Why? Much of the stuff they have on display there is literally crap (one display has different kinds of bodily fluid stains on cloth). What about the piece that was simply a white board? How much work went into that?

 

[verte76]

Difficult, mainly. This example is easily definable. It's a load of garbage by any standard. It's seemingly intentionally insulting and offensive and even to those who do not strictly follow a Christian faith. I find it revolting, and I try to be open minded. but not to the point of tastlessness. Even without this, as an artwork, it's frankly crap.

I agree. I do not consider this art. It's complete garbage. If anyone at my studio did anything like this they'd get kicked out on their ass.

 

[verte76]

I think a good question to ask is where does art go from here? I guess it all depends on how someone defines art or what people think art should do for humanity.

I have been to the MOMA and the Metropolitan, and to tell you the truth, I leave the Met feeling inspired while I leave the MOMA with nothing but a huge question mark. Why? Much of the stuff they have on display there is literally crap (one display has different kinds of bodily fluid stains on cloth). What about the piece that was simply a white board? How much work went into that?

There's some modern art I just can't get into, either. I look at alot of trying to get ideas for my own paintings. My favorite artists are Delacroix, Van Gogh, and I've recently gotten into Chagall after one of my teachers at the studio suggested I look at his stuff for inspiration. I especially like his early stuff, it has a nice folksy look to it. It's inspired by his childhood in Russia.

 

[financeguy]

Difficult, mainly. This example is easily definable. It's a load of garbage by any standard.

Not in my eyes.