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Old 08-11-2007, 08:56 AM   #21
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Old 08-11-2007, 03:10 PM   #22
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Originally posted by 2861U2

And Varitek, your question confuses me. All the examples you gave are red states. Nonetheless, I'm from Illinois.
Yeah, I was making a joke about your skewed perception of political beliefs and your misinformed definition of concepts like socialism. I guess you didn't get it, maybe it wasn't a very good joke, but either way it wasn't really for your benefit.

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Old 08-12-2007, 08:03 PM   #23
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Um, Mr. 2861, it was Saudi Arabia that attacked us, not Afghanistan? Attacking that country just for being the place of refuge of the crook was ludicrous....what should have been done there was a simple police action. Oil be damned, I don't see why we are so afraid of the Saudis, we could have addressed their little problem in some way. Propping up the corrupt Royal Family is Binny's biggest beef (along with Israel). But the poor women of Afghanistan were being crammed into total purdah, so we had all kinds of outrage over women's rights, so in addition to "*ahem" CATCHING Binny, we had to "liberate" the poor suffering ladies of Kabul. Never mind that the media were totally fixated on the women and *ahem again* almost NO media coverage was given to things like the Western-encouraged opium/poppy industry that has single-handedly supplanted the previous cash crop --forget what it was but it wasn't drugs; envoronmental degredation; grinding, horrendous poverty shared by EVERYONE there, not just women; and globalization effects like Pepsi-Cola bottling plants coming in and stealing. IMO, the peoples' water supply to make tooth-rotting crud. No, the women had to be liberated! And if we caught Binny on the side, that was a good thing. Except that for some reason we had him in our gunsights at one point but were told to let him go. Why?

At this point, if we had another 9/11, it wouldn't make a difference, as it would just give Bush or his successor government the excuse to crack down further and give us the Patriot Act IV (last week's cowardly cave-in by the Dems giving--of all people--their SUPPOSED nemesis Gonzo the powerto enforce Patriot Act III. What was that quote from old Benjy Franklin--oh yeah, that guy!--that "A people that gives up a little liberty to have a bit of security deserves, and will have, neither of both"?

I often go about these days thinking of the situation in the world 60 yrs ago, and today seems more of a nightmare than ever. 60+ yrs ago the world was in the greatest mess it would ever be in. But I can comfort myself, in one aspect, that even if the Western world was populated by a bunch of total f*ups in the days before Hitler and his fascisistic bunch of admirers,--people like Chamberlain and Hoover--at least they were succeeded by the great bunch of life-savers who were waiting in the wings. Yes, Churchill, FDR, Ike et al were not perfect--they had their share of skeletons in the closet, dubious moments and flawed policies (some of them) at the micro level; but at the macro level, when the crap finally hit the fan, with 60 yrs of hindsight I thank God that the Western World had these people, because they not only led us through, they were inspirational leaders who set the tone for generations to come. THEY knew what the problem was, THEY did what was friggin necessary to solve it, and most importantly--and this is something that Bush has not done, and the American people will be paying the price for generations--THEY INSTILLED A SENSE OF SELFLESSNESS AND DEPRICATING SELF-SACRIFICE IN THE PEOPLE. THEY DID NOT LIE TO US. THEY HAD THE COURAGE AND CONVICTION TO LEAD BY EXAMPLE, PERSONAL CONSEQUENCES BE DAMNED. And the people followed their example.

If Bush, and his band of spiritual and intellectual cronies in Europe and Canada were lying to us in order to spare us pain while they did what was necessary to fight the war, I would not condone or forgive it, but I could understand the twisted logic. I wouldn't agree with them, but I'd appreciate at least that they had to go through a genuine bitof personal agony and struggle over the matter. Like getting an abortion, it isn't an easy decision to go temporarily fascist in the name of freedom.(and they'll correct it later, once the guns stop. Except..when here,do the guns stop? Won't these laws be forever? I don't get the sense that these jokers want these laws rescinded at all, even after the War On Terror is over. They're already using it for political ends. )

But I don't like being talked down to. I don't like being lied to. I don't like being swindled. And if I, a humble peasant from the provinces outside Washington, can educate myself a little and see the truth, and can appreciate it, why don't they have the f****g courage to tell me. FDR and the WWII generation would have died a second time when seeing the degree of utter cowardice of the "leaders" we have now. And that is where I feel the world, at least the Western world (but okay, the Eastern too....wait until it hits the fan, 10-15 yrs from now) is actual.y WORSE off than 60 + yrs ago. Where are our saviors, wating in the wings?

Yesterday's leaders, unlike Bush, were not impervious to suffering. True, FDR was as isolationist as they came but once we were attacked, it wasn't a rich mans war and poor man's fight. It was total war. He, and other Western leaders, were well aware of the suffering they were about to cause. OK, let's not bring up the Bomb or any of that. I'm talking about camparisons Bush makes between the battle for good and evil compared to WWII. If so, why does he not spell out the full extent of the threat? Why don't we hear the word "Caliphate" pushed down our throats as much as "terrorist"? Why don't our "leaders" warn the American people of the scale of the upcoming conflict and prepare us by mandating that we help our poor troops out by making sacrificies? Why aren't there clothing drives, war bonds, food and soap rationing? True, unlike the post Depression 40's we live in a land of surfeit and are used to plenty, we are even gluttonous, and it would be difficult to pull us sheep away from the McDonalds/multiplex/Wal-Mart/Internet trough...and rationing would make little sense on the surface..but considering how fast the cheap oil supply is diminishing even without the conventional wars we are fighting, the supplies of plastic and other oil-derived products could be cut in supply and the people urged to re-use, for example. As well as cutitng down on water use. We need this stuff for the war effort! We must stop the evil Caliphate/terrorist thugs from taking away our suburban subdivisions, supermarkets filled with daily out-of season fresh food, and fast food resturaunts! The American Way of Life (and,oh yeah, our Values,such, what was that one, democracy?)--is under attack! We must mobilize!

But NO. All this must be kept secret, becuase these cowards are afraid of us, afriadof the political consquences. Or is is maybe because they want to keep us in the dark as to the nature of the true threat, and stuffed like pigs and sedated, becuase they truly don't give a flying f*** about the Threat but are using it to further their own aims of self-preservation and enrichment. Mitt Romney has 5 sons of military age but none of THEM should be used as a symbol of patriotism and self-sacrifice, not even sending one to push papers on an aircraft carrier in the Gulf. Out of all of Congress only ONE person (webb) has a child in the Gulf. THIS is the difference between even the most flawed leader of yesterday and today. They were LOYAL TO THEIR COUNTRY FIRST and their own aims second. The preservation of American and/or British civilization was more important then using the Threat for their own goals.

I feel like our government had been hijacked--on one side legally, the other illegally, but after June it's all officially the same thing--by a bunch of gun-toting "Black Helicopter" phsycos who are are only in it for themselves and US of A can go hang. (Except in terms of ideology the Black Helicopter nuts seem to be bigger patriots.) I don't know these people, in either party, and that's what scares me most. Correction: we don't appear to have any KIngsley Shacklebolts (heck, even FDR's) out there: even people like Obama are scared of their own shadows. I feel like 6 motns ago,a yr ago, the people were ready for a real Leader; now, the moment has passed, and it'll be difficult to get them to care, because the bond of trust has been fataly severed. That scares me the most. And someday, they'll be crying out for an even bigger Dictator to do everything for them, if they can just have their Circuses.

Whatever you may think of the Israeli-Palestinian situation, there is one indisputable fact. Up until this decade, Israel has always had the better military (and sometimes political) leadership. Except for Nasser, until Hezbollah and Hamas came along Israel's generals were better,and that, along with superior weaponry, won her her wars and preserved the overall, "big picture" peace in the region. Now, it seems, through processes that to me still have the reek of nightmare, we in the West are cursed by the opposite: we have the right principles, but we are the ones with the weak, cowardly, craven leaders and the lackey generals. That does not make "them" any more right, but it does, like it or not, make them strong, and since they have woken up, smelled the roses, and, like the Japanese with automoblies, have in terms of operations, copied us very well. Now they are the ones with the chops. And we say: "Oh, but we are right! We are the forces of democracy! Even though we are wrong in what we do milatarily, the people won't reject us becuase they don't want to live under a totalitrian society!"

Wrongo. Most people around the world are not revolutionaries. They aren't radicals any more than you or me. They are bleating little sheep who want the same things everywhere you go: a house or peaceful, comfortable home of some sort; security; to be well-fed, clothed, and decent education and health care, and good entertainment, if they can afford it. On the average, words like "freedom", "justice" and "human rights" are just words to them, except in light of these things. And they'll take it from a dictator as well as a democrat, if it works. Look at Tito, Castro, Franco..the list goes on. But we'd like to believe that with the democracy, there will be less of a price for the avergae Joe to pay in terms of government interference in their lives in return. By that I don't mean ideological crap about Welfare or a nanny state, I mean things like...well, the Patriot Act.

It all depends on whether you think, or care, if any of those things, those "words", are worth preserving. For us, we Americans, that question should not even have to be asked. Noting on what they, and we, have inspired in the world since the late 1700's. Much that is less than rosy, it is true, but on the whole, mostly good. And most of all, for us at home.

Now, it is at home, and from Home, the rot is born and spreads. Lincoln knew whereof he spoke....

This is the dilemma: what good is it when you have to be just as afraid of your own government in peacetime as you do of the forces of Evil in a war? I posed this question in a rant in another thread.

The old Leaders of the West, 60+ yrs ago, knew of this danger and were cognizant of its potential. That is why the "Patriot" type- acts we had during those Wars were suspended, for the most part, when those wars were over. it is why our civil liberties survived until this decade. It is why we were so self-confident and unselfish in the world.

Can anyone genuisely say that the overweening sense of selfishnes in today's socity, the "Everyone for themselves" mentality, is if not inspired but certainly reinforced by the attitudes of those in power? I SHUDDER to think if Western Civilization could have even survived had these people been in power in the early parts of this century.

I try to keep my hopes up, I try to be optimistic, I vote, I repeat to myself "The only thing we have to fear is: FEAR ITSELF" but those words seem from as archaic an era as a strata of limestone unearthed in an Olduvai Gorge dig....

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