People got the power - Irish voters say NO to Eurofederalist treaty

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Wow, we agree! I defintely think if you live in another country you need to learn the language. It's very difficult to live in a country where you can't. I can speak French and Spanish but I'll never be as good as a native so you have to remember that a lot of call centres need people to speak another language but they also want people fluent in the lingo. That's why a lot of foreign folk get those jobs, they're the best candidates.

Now we have agreed on something can we break bread and wine :)
 
But do you dispute that Ireland has benefited more from their membership in the EU/EEC than possibly any other country in Europe? That your standard of living has risen disproportionately during the time period, that foreign investment has gone through the roof?

I'm just wondering how you reconcile the obvious benefits with the vehement opposition?

It is a hypothetical question. One cannot definitely state that Ireland, or any other country, is better, or worse off, in or outside the EU as one has no exact comparison. I do know of several economists that have theorised that the benefits to Ireland of EU membership are immensely overstated. Incidentally, most of the foreign investment has been from US companies. Of course, there is a strong argument that they are here because of the access to the European market. But membership of a common free trade area - which is what the EEC was supposed to be about, and as I keep trying to explain to Salome, does not necessitate political union.

Switzerland, a country of broadly similar size to Ireland, does very well for itself and never joined the EU, just the EEFTA (free trade area)

And then, there is Denmark, another country of broadly similar size to Ireland. They are EU members, but voted no to currency union. Their political establishment didn't like that answer, so re-presented the referendum, essentially unaltered. They voted no again. As far as I am aware, Denmark's economy is in fine fettle.

Ultimately, however, I have a moral problem with the idea that one should sacrifice national sovereignty for the sake of economic progress. It just seems wrong, close to a bribe almost.
 
Or an American in the late 19th century and early 20th century, in relation to the Irish.

Vaz02 is English.

In any case, the comparison is suspect, as America was founded on immigration. European countries were not.

This is an immensely important point which is sometimes missed.

Personally, I don't have strong views on free movement of labour. As I keep saying, free movement of labour (or trade) does not necessitate political union.
 
Like melon, I haven't really kept up with this too closely, so I'm not sure exactly what national sovereignty you would be giving up had the vote been yes.

But I also think that there is a bit of a cultural disconnect, because North Americans live in a much more multicultural and multiculturally welcoming society. Canada, in particular, could be argued to lack an actual Canadian identity (aside from a seemingly deep and abiding love for the maple leaf, Timbits, Hockey Night in Canada and the venerable beaver). More than 50% of Toronto's population is not Canadian-born, for example. Living next door to the United States - remember Trudeau's famous words "when you're a mouse next to an elephant, it doesn't hurt to be alert" we are already partly compromised in terms of a national sovereignty anyway.

So I think a lot of my reaction has to do with the fact that I don't really sense some great fear of ceding something that is uniquely national. In fact, I feel this is really an inevitability as the world continues on the path to globalization.

I was born in Europe and never much understood the strong nationalist ties there. I still don't.
 
I'm not here to be pro or anti-E.U.; just to understand how others think.

It's been interesting, thus far. Even I get a bit tired of the heavy slant towards American topics here. ;)
 
lol, you are a funny guy

I don't need to consult any basic economic text books
even though i didn't chose accountantguy as an alter I did get my degrees in accountancy and am doing quite ok thanks

you are making up a lot of nonsense again to hide the apparent fact that you have no idea what you're talking about
I'm not even asking you to prove your case
I'm asking what was in the referendum that you don't agree with

I also didn't present any theory
(and, this may come as a surprise, but I'm also aware of Jacques Delors is as Europe after World War II was the major part of my history exam)
I just stated that certain things need to be solved in Europe

I wasn't saying the Dutch vote didn't matter
I was saying that when you elect people first to deal with matter than having 37% of the electorate (yes, I'm afraid I actually looked this up) state they're now against what has been decided doesn't make some extremely strong case as far as I'm concerned

maybe I should talk to this majority of the electorate who all agree with you though, because maybe they can explain what it is you all agree on

As an accountant, then, I'd imagine you're concerned about the fact the European Court of Auditors has refused to sign off on the accounts of the European Commission for several years running. It's immensely troubling that the EC can't be bothered to balance its books and account for its expenditure (OUR money). It's quite an insult to the people of Europe that they can't even be bothered rectifying the problems that their own auditors have informed them of. (Of course, there is a more straightforward explanation. They might just be defrauding us.)

Anyway, I don't think that I should do your research for you. What I will do, however, is to list some politicians, political thinkers and economists that have influenced my thinking over the years, and who have led me to the views that I hold, in particular my views about free markets, trade and European political union.

What I'd suggest is that you read up on some of the speeches, articles, and published works of some these people, and that will enable you to understand and appreciate the arguments of the Eurosceptic position:


Margaret Thatcher, former British Prime Minister

John Redwood, former British Cabinet Member (* has a good blog here: http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/ )

Patricia McKenna, former Irish Green MEP

Daniel Hannan, British MEP

Adam Smith, economist

Joseph Schumpeter, economist

Milton Friedman, economist

Friedrich Hayek, Austrian school economist

Ludwig von Mises, Austrian school economist
 
I do know of several economists that have theorised that the benefits to Ireland of EU membership are immensely overstated.

Do you think we should be part of the EU or just leave it altogether? A lot of people will say we should have voted yes because we are a part of Europe. If you want a No vote does that mean you don't think we should be a part of Europe. :shrug: Just curious.

Why do you think the No vote was good for Ireland and what do you think we would have lost had the vote been yes?

:)
 
Do you think we should be part of the EU or just leave it altogether? A lot of people will say we should have voted yes because we are a part of Europe. If you want a No vote does that mean you don't think we should be a part of Europe. :shrug: Just curious.
:)


Free trade zone only, no common currency, no political union. But I suspect that the majority who voted No would not hold the same views as me.


Why do you think the No vote was good for Ireland :)

It is good for Europe and Ireland because it may hold up the drive to political union and all that it entails - common tax policy, the European parliament usurping national sovereignty, common defense, European armies fighting foreign wars, etc. Unfortunately, this may only be temporary.

do you think we would have lost had the vote been yes? :)

Freedom to govern ourselves.
 
There's something special about island nations. Gives you a certain perspective on things, a more independent one perhaps.

Perhaps, though in case of Ireland, apparently not too independent to refuse €60 billion worth of EU subsidies. :wink:
 
Yes your right, a lot of jobs they undertake can be seen as " dogs body " jobs but they are trickling into other industry sectors too now.There are quite a lot of factories around me that specifically target the polish community for labour. Call centre's and independent shops are also becoming increasingly popular amongst the Polish community.

My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases. Intergration is key, so far this is failing badly, such an admission has been admited by the British government.

What you're describing is very similar to the situation immediately after World War II and the millions of "displaced persons" and other refugees needing to find a home and work in Europe (and elsewhere in the world). These people often had no choice to move to other countries, and they did the worst jobs imaginable, just to make a living. Learning new languages and "trying to integrate" often isn't a priority when you're slaving to make a buck. And you are villified: wogs, dagoes, chinks....

How do I know this? My parents went through this.

And it's amazing how 20, 30 years then changes others' perceptions about you....
 
It is a hypothetical question. One cannot definitely state that Ireland, or any other country, is better, or worse off, in or outside the EU as one has no exact comparison. I do know of several economists that have theorised that the benefits to Ireland of EU membership are immensely overstated. Incidentally, most of the foreign investment has been from US companies. Of course, there is a strong argument that they are here because of the access to the European market. But membership of a common free trade area - which is what the EEC was supposed to be about, and as I keep trying to explain to Salome, does not necessitate political union.

I travelled to Ireland in 1990 and then in 2001. The difference was like night and day. Ireland was one sad place in 1990, and I was amazed how you just didn't see many young people (ie 20-40) on the streets, it was all kids and old people, as so many had emigrated. In 2001 it was vibrant and there were definitely people of all ages once again.
 
I wanna buy you guys a pint, you have liberated the people of Europe from a almost certain hell. :applaud:

Why cant Brussels get it into their thick heads, we dont want this dictatorship.

As I've said in the other thread, the Lisbon Treaty would have made the EU more transparent and much more democratic than it is now:

* Increasing power of the directly elected EU parliament compared to that of the EU council;
* Having the option of citizen referenda;
* Meetings of the EU council to be held in public;
* More double majority voting;

all make cries of some kind of shady dictatorship laughable at best.

The things I mentioned above, combined with getting rid of some of these useless Commissioners, and making the Charter for Fundamental Rights legally binding are the main reasons why I voted for the Constitution when the referendum was held here.

I guess my biggest question is what Irish voters (or naysayers in general) expect to get out of this? I just can't shake the feeling that most of the No voters believe they voted against the EU in general, rather than a specific document. I doubt that the average voter could name more than two changes proposed in the Lisbon Treaty.
 
As an accountant, then, I'd imagine you're concerned about the fact the European Court of Auditors has refused to sign off on the accounts of the European Commission for several years running. It's immensely troubling that the EC can't be bothered to balance its books and account for its expenditure (OUR money). It's quite an insult to the people of Europe that they can't even be bothered rectifying the problems that their own auditors have informed them of. (Of course, there is a more straightforward explanation. They might just be defrauding us.)
again, I really fail to see what this has to do with anything
unless you were proposing to use your claims of fraud in a bid to get rid of the EC alltogether
otherwise this would only serve as an arguement for increased clarity on the EC actions, which would actually point more towards a Yes vote

What I'd suggest is that you read up on some of the speeches, articles, and published works of some these people, and that will enable you to understand and appreciate the arguments of the Eurosceptic position:
what I suggest is that you stop talking down to me like I'm 7 years old
I have done my reading on this topic, believe it or not
and I don't think the issue is my appreciation of arguments from Eurosceptics
the thing I noticed is that the arguments - from either side - have hardly changed since I studied this topic back in the early 90s around the time of the Treaty of Maastricht and are not even all that different from around the time of the Treaty of Rome back in the mid 50s (I think)

and that is sort of the basis of what actually troubles me
50 years from the Treaty of Rome nothing has changed
well, everything has changed except for the EC
this doesn't mean we should vote for change for the sake of change itself, but it does mean that it's time to at least see what changes should be made to improve the way the EC functions in its current form
and I don't see how the Lisbon Treaty is such a bad way to go about this

I really don't see how the Lisbon Treaty would equate to European Federalism
actually I think that is a laughable notion if anything else
when the treaty was voted on in The Netherlands there were many pro Europeans who were against the treaty because according to them it doesn't go far enough in creating a united Europe in their view
(an interesting approach, but one I find hard to swallow after 50 years of hardly any forward movement at all)
this treaty doesn't aim at ending sovereign states
it's aim is, as Dr Teeth states, more clarity within the EC

still the referendum gets the No vote everywhere mostly because of:
- people being afraid of something they don't understand and feel absolutely no connection with (funny enough, something this treaty might actually be a solution to)
- lots of people actually voting No because of some sort of protest vote against their own current government (oh, the irony)
- and people who seem to be afraid that their national identity is at stake even though there's no indication of this being so

I'd also suggest that if you would bother to read up on this (actually reading Dr Teeth's post would already be a good start as far as I'm concerned) you would notice that any list of Eurosceptics can be met with an equally long list of Pro Europe thinkers. Both list containing both very intelligent people and some less intelligent people.

Even better, tell me what points in the Treaty you disagree with.
 
I doubt that the average voter could name more than two changes proposed in the Lisbon Treaty.

Exactly! I don't understand what the Lisbon Treaty actually is (so I really do appreciate your post listing some of the main points of it, thank you), no-one (newspapers, politicians etc) seems to have bothered to explain it so when the British Government stands up and says, "Oh the British public don't need a referendum about this. We know what's best for the UK and have already agreed to it" it made me, and I'd assume a lot of other people, rather uneasy purely because it wasn't made clear to us what the treaty actually entailed. The fact that the Government had originally agreed to a referendum on it then changed its mind frankly only increased that unease.
 
What you're describing is very similar to the situation immediately after World War II and the millions of "displaced persons" and other refugees needing to find a home and work in Europe (and elsewhere in the world). These people often had no choice to move to other countries, and they did the worst jobs imaginable, just to make a living. Learning new languages and "trying to integrate" often isn't a priority when you're slaving to make a buck. And you are villified: wogs, dagoes, chinks....

How do I know this? My parents went through this.

And it's amazing how 20, 30 years then changes others' perceptions about you....

Poland isnt the mess it was straight after the war, it has recieved heavy investment from the EU in recent years and the Polish home office are encouraging people to comeback home. The British government has offered grants and incentives for migrants to learn english, the help has been offered aswell as financial. But they dont feel the need to learn English because they are making very little if any social interactions with the English speaking population.

As sympathetic as i am to your parents case, this is a very different time.
 
As I've said in the other thread, the Lisbon Treaty would have made the EU more transparent and much more democratic than it is now:

* Increasing power of the directly elected EU parliament compared to that of the EU council;
* Having the option of citizen referenda;
* Meetings of the EU council to be held in public;
* More double majority voting;

all make cries of some kind of shady dictatorship laughable at best.

Your having a laugh arent you ? If the EU is supposed to be more transparent then why are MEP expenses covered up ? More democratic you say ? Why wasnt a referendum compulsory for all EU member states ?

Its clearly a dictatorship by stealth.
 
My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases. Intergration is key, so far this is failing badly, such an admission has been admited by the British government.

I want to point out that, over the long term, this is absolutely nothing to worry about. Yes, first-generation immigrants like this often are not very integrated into society and often do not know the native language tremendously well. This was exactly the case when it came to European immigrants to the U.S. in the late 19th century and early 20th century. In fact, of all people, the Polish heavily immigrated around where I live in the early 20th century. They had language barriers, formed their own neighborhoods, built their own churches, and faced considerable hostility from the native population up to the point that many of those who had integrated into society would legally have their Polish names/surnames changed just so they wouldn't get discriminated against in decent employment.

Today? The only way you'd know that there were ever immigrant Poles here are by the last names of people you run into. They are fully integrated as Americans and their ethnic neighborhoods and churches, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist.

I can cite plenty of examples of similar stories with various other immigrant groups just from this area alone. We also have the city with the largest population of Arab Americans (30% of the city) not too far away. Interestingly, they're pretty much next to a heavily Jewish populated area, and with no problems.

I do understand that there are other concerns to bring up with mass immigration, which I am not addressing here. Long-term integration, though, over the span of decades, is rarely a concern.
 
Your having a laugh arent you ? If the EU is supposed to be more transparent then why are MEP expenses covered up ? More democratic you say ? Why wasnt a referendum compulsory for all EU member states ?

Its clearly a dictatorship by stealth.

You complain about some kind of EU dictatorship, yet you want the EU to lay down the law for ratifying treaties? The procedure on how to deal with treaties such as this one is up to the individual member states and of no concern to the EU. It's remarks like these that seriously make me wonder if people in the opposing camp actually think their objections through, or that they just like sticking it to the man.

Also, the expense accounts of MEP are audited (though it's far from perfect) and subject to reform in 2009. So even though it's obvious that the EU should really do a lot better in this case, it's not like there's a massive cover up of some sorts.

I would be interested to hear what issues you have with the points in the treaty that I highlighted in my previous post. Don't you think the proposed changes I mentioned make the EU more democratic? And if you think it's not going far enough, how exactly does voting against the treaty make it more democratic?
 
I'm kind of getting the feeling that this is a massive failure of the politicians to really simplify the terms of the treaty for everyday people. Because I haven't yet heard a single specific provision of the treaty that anyone opposes, it's all just talk in terms of generalities. So either the political establishment has failed to explain the treaty or the treaty is so badly drafted that nobody, including the political establishment, really understands it.
 
I want to point out that, over the long term, this is absolutely nothing to worry about. Yes, first-generation immigrants like this often are not very integrated into society and often do not know the native language tremendously well. This was exactly the case when it came to European immigrants to the U.S. in the late 19th century and early 20th century. In fact, of all people, the Polish heavily immigrated around where I live in the early 20th century. They had language barriers, formed their own neighborhoods, built their own churches, and faced considerable hostility from the native population up to the point that many of those who had integrated into society would legally have their Polish names/surnames changed just so they wouldn't get discriminated against in decent employment.

Today? The only way you'd know that there were ever immigrant Poles here are by the last names of people you run into. They are fully integrated as Americans and their ethnic neighborhoods and churches, for all intents and purposes, cease to exist.

I can cite plenty of examples of similar stories with various other immigrant groups just from this area alone. We also have the city with the largest population of Arab Americans (30% of the city) not too far away. Interestingly, they're pretty much next to a heavily Jewish populated area, and with no problems.

I do understand that there are other concerns to bring up with mass immigration, which I am not addressing here. Long-term integration, though, over the span of decades, is rarely a concern.

Some European countries, especially those that have not dealt with high scale immigration, now are facing some severe problems with immigrants as they never cared to provide for those immigrants to integrate. I don't think integration in Europe can be compared to that in the US, or Canada or Australia for that matter. Those that have moved a hundred years or more ago are fully integrated as well, but today we have many immigrants in second or third generation that are often struggling with problems finding employment, problems with their identity (whether to "feel" German or Turkish for example) and other problems like language, prejudices or religious and cultural differences.

Free moving has allowed for many East Europeans to find employment in other countries, but they often don't intend to stay there for decades, hence they don't bother to integrate and learn the language. On the other hand, the European governments so far have failed to develop the infrastructure etc. to not only give these workers "shelter", but also to encourage these to integrate.
And many companies exploit the desperate situation of people from East Poland, Bulgaria or other weak countries, paying them relatively low wages and don't giving a damn how to help these workers how get along in their host nations.
And regarding Poland, this still is a very difficult case as an economy. You have the west that has benefitted relatively well from the collapse of the Soviet Union and the EU, but you have also the east which still is very rural, very much behind and economically extremely week. Hence, they are working for almost every wage possible in order to support their family back home. Additionally, the bright minds often get sucked up by the own developing economy. It might sound a bit cruel, but those who leave for shitty work abroad often are not the bright, high-performing people.

It shouldn't be forgotten that also people from the western European countries are largely profitting from the free movement of labour. And in the long-run, markets tend to find equilibrium, a theory vastly supported by the economists quoted on the page before. ;)
Well, I don't agree with them as in their view we should leave way too much to the markets, and in my opinion we have seen too many examples where that has failed miserably (just think of the liberalisation of the financial markets in the US). On the other hand, I'm quite positive that the effects the cheap labour from East Europe are currently having won't be too bad, but rather even out.
On another note, if it was for Mrs. Thatcher, there would still be two Germanies and whatnot. I'm not too much a fan of her views on European politics in general.

I'm disappointed that the German government, along with almost every other, didn't think it was necessary to hold a referendum. The Lisbon Treaty is such an important step I find it ridiculous the public is ignored on this. Even worse, they didn't seem to see the need to objectively inform the public about the Lisbon Treaty at large. I don't know about how it looked like in other countries, but in Germany there has hardly been any public discussion about the Lisbon Treaty, the two sides of the arguments, the important parts of the treaty and so on. Hardly anyone really knows what is in the treaty, and the politicians failed to inform us about it big time.
It's true, the text of the treaty is available to the public, but come on, it's not justified to expect the public to read some 1,300 pages of legal language.

Additionally, I'm not opposed to the principle of the European Union, which means a economic and political union. I'm rather in favour of it. But I also think such a huge development needs its time, it cannot be forced on the public. And parts of the Lisbon Treaty are trying just that. In my eyes, as long-term goals that is generally desirable. But it's too early yet. We are just not that far progressed, and not that European. It is taking some generations, and not only 51 years after the Treaties of Rome are signed.
Another point, basically the Lisbon Treaty is just the failed European Constitution being given minor changes and a new name. That's an affront to the public. (And mind you, I would easily put myself pro-EU than anti-EU).

There are many things of the Lisbon Treaty that's really an important step forward, many of them listed by DrTeeth. But there are points, like shifting full legal responsibility (sorry, that's not the exact term but my English and my mind are failing me here) from the national high courts to the European High Court.

There are still considerable differences between the EU member states where the Lisbon Treaty is trying to be some sort of a unifier when it cannot be a unifier. In my eyes the politicians have to get off their high horses, listen to the public and think whether they really want to make the second step before the first. And give the damn thing its due time.
 
I'm kind of getting the feeling that this is a massive failure of the politicians to really simplify the terms of the treaty for everyday people. Because I haven't yet heard a single specific provision of the treaty that anyone opposes, it's all just talk in terms of generalities. So either the political establishment has failed to explain the treaty or the treaty is so badly drafted that nobody, including the political establishment, really understands it.

The success of the U.S. Constitution, I believe, has been in the fact that it is specific on the very basic framework of the country, while also being rather vague on everything else--thus allowing it to be an organic document. Even most of the arguments by the so-called "strict constructionists" are really based on conservative romanticism, rather than any sense of actual strictness; so, in short, the Constitution can survive even in inherent conflicts between liberals and conservatives and the shifting attitudes of time.

I'm not sure if the European Constitution/Treaty of Lisbon is like this or is a bloated, complicated document that one would expect to be written today by a bunch of lawyers, but I thought this observation would be worth sharing on this note.
 
Some European countries, especially those that have not dealt with high scale immigration, now are facing some severe problems with immigrants as they never cared to provide for those immigrants to integrate. I don't think integration in Europe can be compared to that in the US, or Canada or Australia for that matter. Those that have moved a hundred years or more ago are fully integrated as well, but today we have many immigrants in second or third generation that are often struggling with problems finding employment, problems with their identity (whether to "feel" German or Turkish for example) and other problems like language, prejudices or religious and cultural differences.

Free moving has allowed for many East Europeans to find employment in other countries, but they often don't intend to stay there for decades, hence they don't bother to integrate and learn the language. On the other hand, the European governments so far have failed to develop the infrastructure etc. to not only give these workers "shelter", but also to encourage these to integrate.
And many companies exploit the desperate situation of people from East Poland, Bulgaria or other weak countries, paying them relatively low wages and don't giving a damn how to help these workers how get along in their host nations.

Then I get the sense that the problem is not with the immigrants and more to do with the host countries themselves.
 
I'm not sure if the European Constitution/Treaty of Lisbon is like this or is a bloated, complicated document that one would expect to be written today by a bunch of lawyers, but I thought this observation would be worth sharing on this note.

I get the sense it's more like a modern Tax Act than like the US Constitution or the Canadian Constitututional documents (The Charter, the old BNA, etc).
 
I'm kind of getting the feeling that this is a massive failure of the politicians to really simplify the terms of the treaty for everyday people. Because I haven't yet heard a single specific provision of the treaty that anyone opposes, it's all just talk in terms of generalities. So either the political establishment has failed to explain the treaty or the treaty is so badly drafted that nobody, including the political establishment, really understands it.

It's just that the Treaty is far too many pages and being legal language it's not really an easy read for non-jurists.
Most people don't want to vote for something they barely understand, and their politicians don't care to take the time to give them a fair insight.
Hence, many people don't go to the voting booth, if they even get the chance to do so. And many of those who go are not willing to give their 'yes' for something they don't really know what it means for them.
Another factor, those opposed to the EU Constitution, or now to the Lisbon Treaty, is much louder than the side that is in favour of it.

Additionally, especially older demographics, but even a lot of young people are just not that enthusiastic about the EU for so many reasons, are afraid of their nation losing sovereignty and are feeling more German, French, English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Danish, Polish... than European.

Just one recent example of how difficult that gets: German airline Air Berlin currently is in hot waters with nationalistic Katalan politicians from Mallorca and other Katalan regions for refusing to use the Katalan language on flights to these regions. So, if you have such movements even within countries, how should they be open to the idea of one Europe?
 
You complain about some kind of EU dictatorship, yet you want the EU to lay down the law for ratifying treaties? The procedure on how to deal with treaties such as this one is up to the individual member states and of no concern to the EU. It's remarks like these that seriously make me wonder if people in the opposing camp actually think their objections through, or that they just like sticking it to the man.



I would be interested to hear what issues you have with the points in the treaty that I highlighted in my previous post. Don't you think the proposed changes I mentioned make the EU more democratic? And if you think it's not going far enough, how exactly does voting against the treaty make it more democratic?

Im more in favour of giving back power to central government and local authority.
I have always been under the impression that democracy was about giving the people the power to vote and make changes in ways there life is governed. The constitution and treaty were ground breaking pieces of legislation that ultimately would of surrendered large proportion of each independent nation's control to Brussels. How possibly can you preach democracy when the people of the Union were unable to vote on their future ? So regardless of being more democratic or less democratic the public perception is, if the powers that be thought the public couldn't be trusted to decide their future something sinister and disturbing is at play.

How would you like it for your parents signed away their guardianship to someone else without your say so ? regardless of been a good deal or not you be so miffed of. dont lie.
 
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