People got the power - Irish voters say NO to Eurofederalist treaty - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-13-2008, 07:59 PM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melon View Post
Which EU nation(s) would you say are like "the U.S.," in the sense of setting the tone and dominating over the other nations?

The Franco-German alliance.
__________________

financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 07:59 PM   #22
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Mullen View Post
Uhm, is that supposed to be informative to the posters who asked for more information on the topic? Your posts on this topic are lacking in substance or argument. I find it really hard to believe you really know what you're on about.
Post reported.
__________________

financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:03 PM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
This is the reason why the public cant have a debate on the topic, because you are automatically accused of racism.

A lot of these workers get support from the government to get adjusted, this includes payment of accommodation for a peroid of time along with any bills and you dont honestly think someone who has just come from eastern Europe could honestly afford a mortage in the UK ? I know this is fact because i myself have worked with these people. They work hard and long but ultimately they are driving the wages down. Polish folk come here because they can easily earn treble what they would at home. I have no problem with Eastern Europeans, its more the free movement act and the long term effect such policy will have on the economy.
All good points. In relation to your first paragraph, as you may have noticed, the modus operandi of some leftwing posters on FYM is to go slandering and slurring people who don't agree with them by throwing accusations of racism around.
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:07 PM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
Laura M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,934
Local Time: 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
A lot of these workers get support from the government to get adjusted, this includes payment of accommodation for a peroid of time along with any bills and you dont honestly think someone who has just come from eastern Europe could honestly afford a mortage in the UK ? I know this is fact because i myself have worked with these people. They work hard and long but ultimately they are driving the wages down. Polish folk come here because they can easily earn treble what they would at home. I have no problem with Eastern Europeans, its more the free movement act and the long term effect such policy will have on the economy.
You don't like the idea of free movement within the EU because too many Poles are in the country and taking all our jobs because they'll work for peanuts and it's their fault that the wages are going down? (I would love to know where you got that tidbit of information). You don't think that comes off as sounding a bit racist?

I'm Irish and I can't afford a mortgage here. Doesn't matter what nationality you are. Hence the reason I asked would they not have rent OR a mortgage to pay. Everyone needs a roof over their head. And the support they get from the government isn't always there, they have to work too.

What is really wrong is that employers see fit to pay them a salary for a job that you say Irish people would get paid more for.
Laura M is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:11 PM   #25
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,047
Local Time: 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
In another thread, you presented an outlandish Delorian (*) theory that a free trade arrangement necessitates political union - an argument which I rapidly disposed of (consulting a basic economist textbook may assist you, if you are still struggling).
lol, you are a funny guy

I don't need to consult any basic economic text books
even though i didn't chose accountantguy as an alter I did get my degrees in accountancy and am doing quite ok thanks

you are making up a lot of nonsense again to hide the apparent fact that you have no idea what you're talking about
I'm not even asking you to prove your case
I'm asking what was in the referendum that you don't agree with

I also didn't present any theory
(and, this may come as a surprise, but I'm also aware of Jacques Delors is as Europe after World War II was the major part of my history exam)
I just stated that certain things need to be solved in Europe

Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
Every single country that has had a vote, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, has said no. Wibbling, waffling nonsense about the turnout being x, y, or z% isn't going to cut it, I'm afraid. You assert that the Dutch vote needn't matter, as the turnout was too low. If we are going to go down the road of assigning motives to those Dutch who choose not to vote, it could equally be assumed that by staying home, they were saying no.

And, to emphasize again, a majority of the electorates of the countries that voted do not agree with you. They agree with me. So your arguments in favour of European political union would probably want to be pretty robust.
I wasn't saying the Dutch vote didn't matter
I was saying that when you elect people first to deal with matter than having 37% of the electorate (yes, I'm afraid I actually looked this up) state they're now against what has been decided doesn't make some extremely strong case as far as I'm concerned

maybe I should talk to this majority of the electorate who all agree with you though, because maybe they can explain what it is you all agree on
__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:13 PM   #26
you are what you is
 
Salome's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 22,047
Local Time: 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
All good points. In relation to your first paragraph, as you may have noticed, the modus operandi of some leftwing posters on FYM is to go slandering and slurring people who don't agree with them by throwing accusations of racism around.
and you actually reported a poster for saying you appear to be posting without having a clue what you're talking about?

__________________
“Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe.”
~Frank Zappa
Salome is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:13 PM   #27
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
Well, look at this way. Would you want Canada to join the US, and have your parliament and executive reporting to Washington? Because ultimately, in my opinion, that it what we dealing with here.
But do you dispute that Ireland has benefited more from their membership in the EU/EEC than possibly any other country in Europe? That your standard of living has risen disproportionately during the time period, that foreign investment has gone through the roof?

I'm just wondering how you reconcile the obvious benefits with the vehement opposition?
anitram is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:17 PM   #28
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
vaz02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: manchester
Posts: 7,447
Local Time: 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salome View Post
and they get all this help because a high percentage of them do work that you can't get Irish people to do even if you would increase the salaries 25%

I've worked with some Eastern Europeans too in Britain
and, really, to pretend that they were doing jobs that any substantial number of British people was even remotely interested in is just not true

they're not there to do the well paid interesting jobs
they mostly do jobs we can't be arsed with
Yes your right, a lot of jobs they undertake can be seen as " dogs body " jobs but they are trickling into other industry sectors too now.There are quite a lot of factories around me that specifically target the polish community for labour. Call centre's and independent shops are also becoming increasingly popular amongst the Polish community.

My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases. Intergration is key, so far this is failing badly, such an admission has been admited by the British government.
vaz02 is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:20 PM   #29
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
Yes your right, a lot of jobs they undertake can be seen as " dogs body " jobs but they are trickling into other industry sectors too now.There are quite a lot of factories around me that specifically target the polish community for labour. Call centre's and independent shops are also becoming increasingly popular amongst the Polish community.

My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases.
This could have been written by a Republican.

About the Mexicans.

It sounds IDENTICAL.
anitram is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:21 PM   #30
Blue Crack Addict
 
Laura M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,934
Local Time: 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
My biggest pet hate about the situation is their lack of English and there lack of intent on studying the language. They stay within their on communities which eliminates the need to learn English. Their inability to learn the language will/has put pressure on local services such as police and hospitals to hire translators to deal with these cases.
Wow, we agree! I defintely think if you live in another country you need to learn the language. It's very difficult to live in a country where you can't. I can speak French and Spanish but I'll never be as good as a native so you have to remember that a lot of call centres need people to speak another language but they also want people fluent in the lingo. That's why a lot of foreign folk get those jobs, they're the best candidates.
Laura M is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:23 PM   #31
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
This could have been written by a Republican.

About the Mexicans.

It sounds IDENTICAL.
Or an American in the late 19th century and early 20th century, in relation to the Irish.
melon is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:23 PM   #32
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
vaz02's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: manchester
Posts: 7,447
Local Time: 11:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Mullen View Post
Wow, we agree! I defintely think if you live in another country you need to learn the language. It's very difficult to live in a country where you can't. I can speak French and Spanish but I'll never be as good as a native so you have to remember that a lot of call centres need people to speak another language but they also want people fluent in the lingo. That's why a lot of foreign folk get those jobs, they're the best candidates.
Now we have agreed on something can we break bread and wine
vaz02 is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:27 PM   #33
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
But do you dispute that Ireland has benefited more from their membership in the EU/EEC than possibly any other country in Europe? That your standard of living has risen disproportionately during the time period, that foreign investment has gone through the roof?

I'm just wondering how you reconcile the obvious benefits with the vehement opposition?
It is a hypothetical question. One cannot definitely state that Ireland, or any other country, is better, or worse off, in or outside the EU as one has no exact comparison. I do know of several economists that have theorised that the benefits to Ireland of EU membership are immensely overstated. Incidentally, most of the foreign investment has been from US companies. Of course, there is a strong argument that they are here because of the access to the European market. But membership of a common free trade area - which is what the EEC was supposed to be about, and as I keep trying to explain to Salome, does not necessitate political union.

Switzerland, a country of broadly similar size to Ireland, does very well for itself and never joined the EU, just the EEFTA (free trade area)

And then, there is Denmark, another country of broadly similar size to Ireland. They are EU members, but voted no to currency union. Their political establishment didn't like that answer, so re-presented the referendum, essentially unaltered. They voted no again. As far as I am aware, Denmark's economy is in fine fettle.

Ultimately, however, I have a moral problem with the idea that one should sacrifice national sovereignty for the sake of economic progress. It just seems wrong, close to a bribe almost.
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:30 PM   #34
Blue Crack Addict
 
Laura M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,934
Local Time: 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vaz02 View Post
Now we have agreed on something can we break bread and wine
Sweet
Laura M is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:32 PM   #35
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melon View Post
Or an American in the late 19th century and early 20th century, in relation to the Irish.
Vaz02 is English.

In any case, the comparison is suspect, as America was founded on immigration. European countries were not.

This is an immensely important point which is sometimes missed.

Personally, I don't have strong views on free movement of labour. As I keep saying, free movement of labour (or trade) does not necessitate political union.
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:34 PM   #36
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 07:27 PM
Like melon, I haven't really kept up with this too closely, so I'm not sure exactly what national sovereignty you would be giving up had the vote been yes.

But I also think that there is a bit of a cultural disconnect, because North Americans live in a much more multicultural and multiculturally welcoming society. Canada, in particular, could be argued to lack an actual Canadian identity (aside from a seemingly deep and abiding love for the maple leaf, Timbits, Hockey Night in Canada and the venerable beaver). More than 50% of Toronto's population is not Canadian-born, for example. Living next door to the United States - remember Trudeau's famous words "when you're a mouse next to an elephant, it doesn't hurt to be alert" we are already partly compromised in terms of a national sovereignty anyway.

So I think a lot of my reaction has to do with the fact that I don't really sense some great fear of ceding something that is uniquely national. In fact, I feel this is really an inevitability as the world continues on the path to globalization.

I was born in Europe and never much understood the strong nationalist ties there. I still don't.
anitram is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:40 PM   #37
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Ásgarðr
Posts: 11,782
Local Time: 07:27 PM
I'm not here to be pro or anti-E.U.; just to understand how others think.

It's been interesting, thus far. Even I get a bit tired of the heavy slant towards American topics here.
melon is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:41 PM   #38
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:27 AM
I like cosmopolitanism and I think that financeguy is justifiably wary.
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:55 PM   #39
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 12:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salome View Post
lol, you are a funny guy

I don't need to consult any basic economic text books
even though i didn't chose accountantguy as an alter I did get my degrees in accountancy and am doing quite ok thanks

you are making up a lot of nonsense again to hide the apparent fact that you have no idea what you're talking about
I'm not even asking you to prove your case
I'm asking what was in the referendum that you don't agree with

I also didn't present any theory
(and, this may come as a surprise, but I'm also aware of Jacques Delors is as Europe after World War II was the major part of my history exam)
I just stated that certain things need to be solved in Europe

I wasn't saying the Dutch vote didn't matter
I was saying that when you elect people first to deal with matter than having 37% of the electorate (yes, I'm afraid I actually looked this up) state they're now against what has been decided doesn't make some extremely strong case as far as I'm concerned

maybe I should talk to this majority of the electorate who all agree with you though, because maybe they can explain what it is you all agree on
As an accountant, then, I'd imagine you're concerned about the fact the European Court of Auditors has refused to sign off on the accounts of the European Commission for several years running. It's immensely troubling that the EC can't be bothered to balance its books and account for its expenditure (OUR money). It's quite an insult to the people of Europe that they can't even be bothered rectifying the problems that their own auditors have informed them of. (Of course, there is a more straightforward explanation. They might just be defrauding us.)

Anyway, I don't think that I should do your research for you. What I will do, however, is to list some politicians, political thinkers and economists that have influenced my thinking over the years, and who have led me to the views that I hold, in particular my views about free markets, trade and European political union.

What I'd suggest is that you read up on some of the speeches, articles, and published works of some these people, and that will enable you to understand and appreciate the arguments of the Eurosceptic position:


Margaret Thatcher, former British Prime Minister

John Redwood, former British Cabinet Member (* has a good blog here: http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/ )

Patricia McKenna, former Irish Green MEP

Daniel Hannan, British MEP

Adam Smith, economist

Joseph Schumpeter, economist

Milton Friedman, economist

Friedrich Hayek, Austrian school economist

Ludwig von Mises, Austrian school economist
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2008, 08:58 PM   #40
Blue Crack Addict
 
Laura M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 18,934
Local Time: 01:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
I do know of several economists that have theorised that the benefits to Ireland of EU membership are immensely overstated.
Do you think we should be part of the EU or just leave it altogether? A lot of people will say we should have voted yes because we are a part of Europe. If you want a No vote does that mean you don't think we should be a part of Europe. Just curious.

Why do you think the No vote was good for Ireland and what do you think we would have lost had the vote been yes?

__________________

Laura M is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×