Peace = Chance to Regroup and Claim Victory

[Sherry Darling]

And this from an elected official - the Prime Minister of Malaysia

Very important point, I think.

SD

 

[nbcrusader]

It gets worse - the Conference of Leaders were all in agreement

Megawati applauded Mahathir attack on Jews

The Indonesian President, Megawati Soekarnoputri, joined a standing ovation for her Malaysian counterpart, Mahathir Mohamad, after he called on Muslims to consider Jews as their enemy, it has been revealed.

All 57 leaders at a Conference of Islamic Nations summit applauded the comments, which have renewed regional tensions ahead of next week's APEC leaders' conference. Among them were several key figures in the post-September 11 world, including Ms Megawati; the Afghan President, Hamid Karzai; President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.

Dr Mahathir's speech was met with a chorus of condemnation from leaders of non-Islamic states yesterday, including the Prime Minister, John Howard.

The Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, last night snubbed Malaysia's Foreign Minister, Syed Hamid Albar, declining to invite him to a dinner to discuss Islam and the fight against terrorism at the Australian ambassador's residence in Bangkok.

Indonesia's Hassan Wirayuda attended, along with the foreign ministers of New Zealand, Canada, Singapore and Japan and a US undersecretary of state, Alan Larson.

"We will be exploring the issue of how to support moderate Islam and moderate Islamic leadership," Mr Downer said before the dinner.

"We didn't invite everybody to it. Malaysia is going through a political transition. In two weeks' time, Dr Mahathir retires," he said, hailing his successor, Abdullah Badawi, as a "good and moderate and sensible man".

He said Dr Mahathir's remarks had not been discussed by foreign ministers gathered in Bangkok, neither had President George Bush's description of Australia as a sheriff.

Mr Howard, who arrives in Bangkok this afternoon for the APEC summit, is expected to sign a free trade agreement with Thailand and make a keynote speech on terrorism.

He is also due to meet Ms Megawati privately on Monday to discuss regional security issues.

Dr Mahathir told the meeting of Islamic leaders in Malaysia on Thursday that "Jews rule this world by proxy".

He accused Jews worldwide of "getting others to fight and die for them" and called on Muslims to fight back with their brain and brawn.

Mr Howard noted that Dr Mahathir would retire soon, and said he would normally allow such polemical statements from the Malaysian leader to "go through to the keeper".

However, he wanted to make clear that "any indication of rivalry between Jews and Muslims is very unhelpful".

"Any suggestion from anybody anywhere in the world of dividing the world into Jewish and non-Jewish groupings is historically indefensible and wrong and something that all Australians, or most Australians, would regard as quite repugnant," he said.

An Indonesian Government spokesman, Marty Natalegawa, expressed support for Dr Mahathir's statement and declined to condemn his remarks about Jews ruling the world.

 

[verte76]

It will be interesting to see how these people handle the controversy over these remarks. The guy's about to retire. I'll bet some of those people squirmed. Damn. This is depressing.

 

[melon]

Speak of the devil...

Malaysian Explains Anti-Jewish Remarks
Fri Oct 17, 1:10 PM ET

By PATRICK McDOWELL, Associated Press Writer

PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia - Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad refused to apologize Friday for a speech in which he said Jews ruled the world, accusing the West of a double standard in criticizing Muslims and Jews.

Defending himself against international condemnation, Mahathir gave a news conference a day after addressing the 57-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference, the world's largest Muslim group.

In the speech, he said that "Jews rule the world by proxy. They get others to fight and die for them."

The statement drew immediate criticism from Israel, the United States and other countries, and raised fears that it could fan violence against Jews. But it got a standing ovation from the kings, presidents, sheiks and emirs ? including key U.S. allies ? gathered in Malaysia's capital, Putrajaya.

On Friday, Mahathir said Westerners such as the Rev. Jerry Falwell receive little fallout for labeling the Prophet Muhammed a "terrorist," while statements about Israel's actions against Palestinians draw immediate charges of anti-Semitism.

Falwell, a conservative Baptist minister, outraged Muslims by saying in an interview last year with CBS' "60 Minutes" that he had concluded Muhammad "was a terrorist."

"Are we not allowed at all to criticize the Jews if they do things which are wrong?" Mahathir asked. "If Muslims can be accused of being terrorists, then others can accuse the Jews of being terrorists also."

Mahathir, 77, a senior statesmen in the developing world who will retire Oct. 31 after 22 years in office, has long been an outspoken leader. He is a staunch advocate of the Palestinians and strongly opposed the war in Iraq, but also has jailed terror suspects from the al-Qaida-linked Jemaah Islamiyah group.

In his news conference, Mahathir accused "most" European leaders ? by which he also generally means Americans and Australians ? of being biased.

"The fact is that they are biased," Mahathir said. "Most of them are biased. Not all; most of them. And they feel that while it is proper to criticize Muslims and Arabs, it is not proper to criticize Europeans and Jews. Apparently, they think they are privileged people."

Mahathir said the thrust of his speech had been to urge Muslims to step back from violence, rethink their strategies, and find a peaceful way through acquiring knowledge to gain strength and unity so they would gain respect and their rights.

"What I said in my speech is that we should stop all this violence, all these killings, all these suicide bombings, all this massive retaliation," Mahathir said. "I am against violence, I am against terrorism."

He also said that remarks earlier Friday by his foreign minister, Syed Hamid Albar that expressed regret over misunderstandings if any offense occurred did not amount to an apology.

Syed Hamid had told The Associated Press: "I'm sorry that they have misunderstood the whole thing. The intention is not to create controversy. His intention is to show that if you ponder and sit down to think, you can be very powerful."

In his speech, Mahathir had said Muslims had achieved "nothing" in more than 50 years of fighting Israel.

"They survived 2,000 years of pogroms not by hitting back but by thinking," Mahathir said of the Jews. "They invented socialism, communism, human rights and democracy so that persecuting them would appear to be wrong, so that they can enjoy equal rights with others."

Mahathir said the world's 1.3 billion Muslims "cannot be defeated by a few million Jews."

In Washington, State Department spokesman Adam Ereli called Mahatir's remarks offensive and inflammatory.

Israel's Foreign Ministry said it was "a desecration of the memory of 6 million victims of anti-Semitism."

Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles, said Mahathir's speech "is an absolute invitation for more hate crimes and terrorism against Jews. That's serious."

In their reactions to the speech, most of the leaders at the summit focused on the aspects that Egyptian Foreign Minister Ahmed Maher called "a good road map" toward Muslim empowerment.

Asked by the AP whether he thought the speech was anti-Semitic, Afghan President Hamid Karzai said: "I don't think so."

In other action at the Islamic summit, the leaders Friday:

- Urged a faster transition to full sovereignty for Iraq, but toned down an earlier plan calling for a greater role for the United Nations.

- Strongly condemned threats by the Israeli government against Palestinian President Yasser Arafat. The nations also asked the international community to force Israel to remove a security barrier that winds into Palestinian land and to ensure the withdrawal of Israeli occupation forces from Palestinian and Arab territories.

- Condemned the recent Israeli attack inside Syria as a violation of international law and the U.N. charter, and urged U.S. Security Council to prevent a recurrence.

Melon

 

[Dreadsox]

Why should he apologize? As someone stated in here...GOOD FOR MATHIR!!!!!!!!

Obviously his comments are representative of a religion with peacefull intentions. We are just biased because of our wester zionist democratic socialist influnces.

 

[melon]

Why should he apologize? As someone stated in here...GOOD FOR MATHIR!!!!!!!!

Obviously his comments are representative of a religion with peacefull intentions. We are just biased because of our wester zionist democratic socialist influnces.

I've been accused in the real world of having too much integrity and then putting people up to the same levels of unrealistic integrity as well. I think, for me, my biggest pet peeve is open hypocrisy, so when I see Christians bashing Muslims, I feel that I have to remind people of bigots within their own camp. And when we, as Westerners, call for Muslims to change or whatever, I feel that I have to remind people that we have room to change as well.

Perhaps that is a flaw of mine, because I end up posting things that I don't necessarily believe myself, just for the sake of trying to make people think.

Just to show you where I'm at right now, I was interested in Unitarianism recently. I realized soon afterwards that it wasn't for me, because it was way too liberal and non-Christian for me, as a whole, even though I admire some of its theoretical values.

Melon

 

[Dreadsox]

Just to show you where I'm at right now, I was interested in Unitarianism recently. I realized soon afterwards that it wasn't for me, because it was way too liberal and non-Christian for me, as a whole, even though I admire some of its theoretical values.

Tried it myself too. Came to the same conclusion.

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]EU fumbles over response to Malaysian PM's remarks

By The Associated Press and Haaretz Service

BRUSSELS, Belgium - French President Jacques Chirac
blocked the European Union from ending a two-day
summit Friday with a harshly worded statement
condemning Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir
Mohamad's remarks about Jews a day earlier.

Backed by Greek Prime Minister
Costas Simitis, officials said,
Chirac objected to a few short
sentences in a 19-page summit
statement deploring Mahathir's
comment at an Islamic leaders
summit that "Jews rule the
world by proxy."

Foreign ministers Thursday night
had drafted a text that said: "His unacceptable
comments hinder all our efforts to further
interethnic and religious harmony, and have no
place in a decent world. Such false and
anti-Semitic remarks are as offensive to
Muslims as they are to others."

Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini told
reporters Thursday night Mahathir's remarks
were "gravely offensive."

But when the paper was handed to EU leaders
Friday morning, Chirac said there was no place
in an EU declaration for a text of this kind,
diplomats said. Other leaders agreed, although
the Netherlands wanted the wording to stay in
the declaration.

The leaders then compromised by having Italian
Premier Silvio Berlusconi, the summit host,
criticize Mahathir at his closing news
conference.

The French Embassy in Israel issued a statement
saying that Chirac condemned the Malaysian's
prime minister's statements about Jews, but
that the French President felt that the EU
summit statemetn was not the appropriate place
to express this.

Officials said the draft text also would be
issued as a separate statement and would be
posted on the EU presidency website,
http://ueitalia2003.it.

Berlusconi told reporters Mahathir's comments
about Jews undermine efforts to bring different
religions closer.

"All of our efforts must go toward a dialogue
between the Western world and the Islamic
world, between Christian religion and Islamic
religion," he added.

Britain summons Malaysian diplomat
Britain summoned Malaysia's top diplomat in
London on Friday to express concern about
Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad
remark that Jews rule the world, the Foreign
Office said.

Malaysian High Commissioner Mohammed Dato'Abdul
Aziz was summoned Friday morning to meet
Minister of State Mike O'Brien "to raise our
concerns directly about Prime Minister
Mahathir's speech," the Foreign Office said.

"It's unfortunate that Mahathir chose to make
these remarks which we regard as unacceptable.
It's particularly regrettable that some of his
positive and welcome messages, such as
negotiation being the right path to peace and
the futility of terrorism, have been obscured
and overshadowed by racist remarks," the
Foreign Office said. [/Q]

They only focused on the racist remarks. They missed the part advocating for peace to strike another day.

 

[Dreadsox]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Peace = Chance to Regroup and Claim Victory

Do you know how the people accepted the speech?

You are right....I was foolish to assume that the speech was booed.

[Q]The speech drew a standing ovation from the assembled leaders, who included Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Abdullah, Afghan President Hamid Karzai, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri. Russian President Vladimir Putin and President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo were special guests because of their large Muslim minorities. [/Q]

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/latest/story/0,4390,215079,00.html?

 

[Sherry Darling]

Melon, fair enough. Falwell's an idiot. And there are clearly idiots, and dangerous ones, in all camps, so your reminder is valid and important (though I want to gently question your seeming self appointed role as Hipocrisy Police, as all humans are biased and fallible).

But that still doesn't address what I think is the real concern here: the OFFICAL capacity in which this arguement was made, and the lack of any other information sources which millions of Muslims have , due to the oppressiveness of their own leaders. The reaction, which Dread pointed out, is also worrisome, to say the least.

SD

 

[Dreadsox]

I am flabbergasted. Today I have read in three papers that his message was one of peace. He makes historical references to accepting peace, as in the past, to conquer down the road. It was not a message of peace, it was a message of REGROUPING.

 

[verte76]

Damn, Dread, that's outrageous. Who wrote this ??

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]
MAHATIR DEFIANT OVER JEWISH COMMENTS
18.10.2003. 14:03:06



A defiant Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad has staunchly defended his claim Jews ruled the world following against a storm of western protest.

His controversial speech to the leaders of Muslim nations at the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) on Thursday has been received with "contempt and derision" by the United States, while Israel expressed "disgust" and Italy labelled his comments as "gravely offensive".

But Dr Mahatir instead accused his critics of bias and double standards, while Islamic leaders at the OIC rallied around the Malaysian leader, saying his real message had been missed.

The outgoing Malaysian Prime Minister denied he was anti-Semitic, saying he was merely stating historical facts, and added it was "grossly unfair" that Muslims could be criticised but others could not speak out against the Jews.

"It is a manifestation of bias towards Muslims that you cannot criticise the Jews without being called anti-Semitic," he told a news conference at the end of the two-day summit.

"While it is proper to criticise Muslims and Arabs, it is not proper to criticise Europeans and Jews. Apparently they think they are a privileged people but we don't think so. If you criticise us, we have a right to criticise them."

He says it?s unfortunate that his key message to stop all violence, suicide bombings and massive retaliation in the Middle East was not highlighted.

Dr Mahathir said the sentiments he expressed were shared by most Muslim countries but they were unable to speak their minds because they feared being victimised.

He was backed by other officials at the OIC conference, who said the comments were taken out of context in a speech which had called for the Muslim world to overcome its weaknesses.

While Dr Mahathir's critics may be hoping little more will be heard from him after retires in two weeks, he promised to be "be even more irresponsible after I have stepped down".
[/Q]

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]But Mahathir, backed by other Islamic leaders, stuck to his guns.

"While it is proper to criticise Muslims and Arabs, it is not proper to criticise Europeans and Jews," he said at his press conference at the end of the summit.

"Apparently they think they are a privileged people but we don't think so. If you criticise us, we have a right to criticise them."

He added it was unfortunate that his key message to stop all violence, suicide bombings and massive retaliation in the Middle East was not highlighted.
[/Q]

http://www9.sbs.com.au/theworldnews/region.php?id=71059&region=2

It seems that the good Dr. Mahathir has taken his own speech out of context. He would love us to believe that was the message, but it was NOT!!!! While it is important that the press key in on the fact that there was anti-semetic overtones in the speech, they missed the ball on this part.

 

[BVS]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Peace = Chance to Regroup and Claim Victory

You are right....I was foolish to assume that the speech was booed.

[Q]The speech drew a standing ovation from the assembled leaders, who included Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Abdullah, Afghan President Hamid Karzai, Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf and Indonesian President Megawati Sukarnoputri. Russian President Vladimir Putin and President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo were special guests because of their large Muslim minorities. [/Q]

URL]

Hey I was asking a question. At the time I couldn't find any information on how it was recieved. I'm extremely dissappointed that it was recieved this way, but I'm still not going to judge the religion as one of violence. I know too many Muslims that prove otherwise to do that. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

 

[verte76]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Peace = Chance to Regroup and Claim Victory

Hey I was asking a question. At the time I couldn't find any information on how it was recieved. I'm extremely dissappointed that it was recieved this way, but I'm still not going to judge the religion as one of violence. I know too many Muslims that prove otherwise to do that. Maybe I'm just an optimist.

I'm not going to judge every Moslem on the planet just because of this one speech. Yes, it was made in the biggest Islamic forum on the planet. I personally know of Moslems who don't share these anti-Semitic sentiments and are hurt and embarrassed by this stuff.

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not hate anyone because of their religion nor am I judging people because of their religion. I have muslim friends, students, and collegues that are not representative of this thread.

 

[verte76]

I understand Dread. Peace.

 

[nbcrusader]

This underscores why it is important to understand other religions and the tenets of their beliefs.

 

[verte76]

This underscores why it is important to understand other religions and the tenets of their beliefs.

Absolutely. We can't have peace with these people unless we understand their religion. We must have peace with them.

 

[Dreadsox]

Speaking of understanding others religious beliefs. The leader of the Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party and spiritual advisor the the PAS had this to say:

[Q]?I don?t think Dr Mahathir is anti-Jew but he is against their attitude. This is in line with Islamic teachings. Any human being, regardless of race, who follows the attitude of the Jews, must be opposed by Muslims.?

?Since the era of Prophet Muhammad, they have always created all sorts of problems for the international community and all the problems are caused by their attitude.?[/Q]

To summarize We don't hate the Jews is just their stinking attitude and anyone who has that attitude will be opposed.


What attitude is that?http://www.thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2003/10/19/nation/6526294&sec=nation

 

[verte76]

Some people need to shut their mouths and read some books. They'd do themselves some good if they stopped mouthing off this anti-Semitic .

 

[Dreadsox]

[Q]
He says it?s unfortunate that his key message to stop all violence, suicide bombings and massive retaliation in the Middle East was not highlighted.
[/Q]

No, My Dear Dr,,,,Your message was not to stop for the sake of peace. You made reference to a period of history, that Yassar Arrafat happens to make reference to when he signs treaties as well. It is CODE to the muslim world that you are not seeking peace, but a temporary cease fire until the time is right for you to strike. This is the historical account that you referenced in your so called argument for peace.

[Q]The Event

The sources tell of tensions between Muhammad and the grandees of the
Quraysh tribe who controlled Mecca, his home city. The Quraysh leaders
viewed the upstart prophet as a direct threat to their interests for his
monotheistic message undermined Mecca's status as a pilgrimage destination
for followers of the polytheistic Arabian religions. Tensions between
Quraysh and the nascent Muslim community eventually forced Muhammad to flee
the city in 622 c.e., when he found refuge in Medina, a town to the north of
Mecca. By 628, Muhammad had built enough strength in Medina to challenge the
Quraysh and possibly to vanquish them and take their city; instead, he
reached an agreement with them. Named the Treaty of Hudaybiya after the town
where it was signed, this pact disappointed many of the Muslims, who were
spoiling for a fight. The treaty held that the two sides

agreed to remove war from the people for ten years. During this time the
people are to be security and no one is to lay hands on another. . . .
Between us evil is to be abstained from, and there is to be no raiding or
spoilation.

In the twenty-two months after signing the treaty, Muhammad significantly
built up his power base. He made new conquests and formed alliances with
powerful tribes, in particular with the Bani Khuza`a. As a result, by 630,
he was considerably stronger vis-?-vis Quraysh than at the time of the
signing. Quraysh did less well in terms of making new alliances, but it did
ally with another strong tribe, the Bani Bakr.

Now, the Bani Khuza`a and the Bani Bakr lived near each other and had a long
history of feuding-and feuding in Arabia, as in Appalachia, was passed on
from generation to generation. In December 629, some of the Bani Bakr,
possibly with Quraysh help, took vengeance on a party of the Bani Khuza`a,
killing several of the latter. On hearing this news, Muhammad instantly
opted for the most drastic response - to attack Mecca. It appears that he
had decided the time had come to challenge the ultimate power base of
Quraysh in their home city.

In response, Quraysh sent a delegation to Muhammad, petitioning him to
maintain the treaty, and offering (as was the Arabian fashion) material
compensation for the lives of the dead men. Muhammad, however, had no
interest in a compromise and rejected all Quraysh entreaties. In an act of
desperation, Abu Sufyan, leader of the Quraysh delegation, went to the
mosque in Medina and proclaimed, "O people, I guarantee protection for all!"
To this, Muhammad dryly replied, "You say this, O Abu Sufyan, not any one of
us."

Muhammad had already made quiet preparations for an assault on Quraysh. This
meant once the desultory negotiations ended, he was ready in short order to
advance with a huge force on Mecca. So impressive was his army that the
Meccans made no effort to resist it. Instead, they surrendered their city
without a fight in January 630. And so ended the Hudaybiya incident.[/Q]

 

[nbcrusader]

Interesting quote. Given the statement "Muhammad was a terrorist" is inflamatory, based on the above quote, I wonder if there is any kernal of truth to the statement?

 

[Sherry Darling]

NCB,

Perhaps there is, but I think we'd do best to be very careful with that label; a "kernal" of truth to Muhammad's military exploits isn't enough. Was Caesar a terrorist? Napoleon? Militarism and tribal warfare, especially over land, was really the order of the day, just like medieval Europe.

(LOL--the more things change....)

SD

 

[Dreadsox]

I do not agree with the terrorist label either. That was not my intended point.

When talking about peace, arab leadership refers to this period in history. To me it means, that what we think of as peace a lasting peace, is not possible culturally, when they are referring to this as their model for peace.

Does that make sense?

 

[verte76]

Peaceful Moslems use Mohammed's story to point out that Islam only allows killing in self defense. Thus, terrorists aren't practicing Islam with their terrorist activities. "They are terrorists, not Moslems" in the words of a Moroccan Moslem scholar.

 

[nbcrusader]

Mahathir Digs the Hole Even Deeper

From the Bangkok Post

Malaysian Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad says his comments about Jews during a speech at an Islamic summit last week, which prompted harsh criticism in the West, had been taken out of context.

``In my speech I condemned all violence, even the suicide bombings, and I told the Muslims it's about time we stopped all these things and paused to think and do something that is much more productive. That was the whole tone of my speech, but they picked up one sentence where I said that the Jews control the world,'' he told Bangkok Post in an exclusive interview yesterday, which covered aspects of his 22 years as leader of Malaysia, as well as his straight-forward views on terrorism, democracy and US policy.

Dr Mahathir added, however, that ``the reaction of the world shows that they [Jews] do control the world''.

During a speech at the Organisation of Islamic Conference in Malaysia last week, Dr Mahathir said Jewish people, because of their ties with the United States, had an influence in the world which far outweighed their numbers.

``It cannot be that there is no other way; 1.3 billion Muslims cannot be defeated by a few million Jews,'' he said.

The United States, Israel, Australia and the European Union have accused Dr Mahathir of anti-Semitism.

Dr Mahathir said the Americans and Europeans were out to condemn him.

The European Union had done nothing when Italian Prime Minister Silvio Burlesconi made a statement calling Muslims terrorists.

``Did the European Union pass a resolution to say that this was against Muslims? Why is it that when people condemn Muslims the European Union does not try to say anything?''

Dr Mahathir said his comments about Israel and Jews were true.

``Israel is a small country. There are not many Jews in the world. But they are so arrogant that they defy the whole world. Even if the United Nations say no, they go ahead. Why? Because they have the backing of all these people.''

Dr Mahathir said that in his speech he urged Israelis and Arabs to stop the killing and to think, pause and settle.

``I even quoted from the Koran, which says that when the enemy offers to make peace you must accept. I told the Muslims you must accept even if the terms are bad. You have to negotiate. This is the teaching of Islam. All that was in my speech... But those things were blacked out,'' he said.

 

[verte76]

They shouldn't have cut Burlescone any slack with that anti-Islamic remark. Blanket statements about any one religious group or nationality or whatever are unacceptable, whether it be Moslems, Jews, or whoever.

 

[Dreadsox]

My only comment is that he spoke about peace in a historical context, one in which Mohammad bided his time, grew stronger, waited for his enemy to make a mistake and then conquered. That is the PEACE he is advocating.