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Old 11-06-2001, 11:24 PM   #1
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partisan politics rearing its ugly head in NYC...

Interesting, billionaire Republican Mike Bloomberg has apparently bought the NYC mayoral race, with the help of over $40 million in campaign advertising (compared to $11 millon for his opponent), much of which featured out-going Mayor Rudolph Giuliani voicing his support of Bloomberg -- who has no political experience of any kind. What is more interesting is that Bloomberg trailed in the polls by more than 20% points only two weeks ago before Giuliani's endorsement. Considering Bloomberg is a political novice, this doesn't seem like the sort of thing NYC needs during this time of crisis; I sure hope Giuliani is confident Bloomberg can do a better job for the City and is not just doing it for his political Party. (though I must also note Giuliani was used in the campaign in Virginia during the Governor's race to no avail, not sure what Giuliani knows about Virginia's political landscape, but thanks anyway... I think he did an excellent job helping NYC since Sept. 11, but why is he using his strong public approval ratings from his handling of the crisis/tragedy for political gain? Disappointing to say the least.)

[This message has been edited by The Wanderer (edited 11-06-2001).]
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Old 11-07-2001, 12:29 AM   #2
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it was nice knowing you, new york city. rich, unexperienced republicans fuck everything up...

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Old 11-07-2001, 01:06 AM   #3
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Yeah, David Denkins did WONDERS for that city, huh?
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Old 11-07-2001, 01:08 AM   #4
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Yeah, David Denkins did WONDERS for that city, huh?
oh any reply i make to this one will come off as racist, so i'd better just shut up.

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Old 11-07-2001, 01:28 AM   #5
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Go fer it, Whortense.

Seriously. Look at what NYC was under the last Democratic mayor and under the last Republican mayor -- THEN tell me which party's mayors fuck things up.
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Old 11-07-2001, 01:42 AM   #6
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
Go fer it, Whortense.

Seriously. Look at what NYC was under the last Democratic mayor and under the last Republican mayor -- THEN tell me which party's mayors fuck things up.
once again, i will restrain myself. the catastrophes regarding cities have less to do with party affiliation as it has to do with other factors. i will get into it later once i can compose a good sentence.

giuliani, honestly, strikes as not very "republican." he'd probably be labelled "too liberal" for the more conservative southern / great plains states. if all republicans were like new england republicans, we'd have a happy nation indeed.

but now we have a rich republican who seemingly bought his way to the top. hopefully, he really is more of a new england republican than the usual ugly, greedy, and insensitive republicans. you'll disagree, most certainly.

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Old 11-07-2001, 02:06 AM   #7
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There are Republicans in New England?

Yes, certainly, Rudy and Pitaki are both more liberal than Midwest conservatives, but they are also FAR MORE CONSERVATIVE than New York Democrats.

(Still doubt that Greenburg's actually a conservative, though.)

A few observations:

First, if the mayoral race could be bought, Greenburg would have been ahead the entire time. Rather, it seems he had to spend an egregious amount of money just to KEEP UP. That alone may indicate a poorly run campaign, but it can also (easily) point to a biased NY media or the fact that (as FoxNews.com reports) NY Dems outnumber Republicans FIVE TO ONE.

So, it may be taken as a given that his campaign would be costly. And yes, Greenburg bankrolled quite a bit of his campaign out of pocket. But I would think those who think special interest groups control politicians would be happy that an elected official paid his own way through the campaign.

I take exception at your second use of tying "rich" to "Republican". Many middle class Americans are Republicans, and very many of the nation's wealthiest are Democrats -- especially in New York and Hollywood.

Finally, of course I object to you suggesting that the typical Republican is "ugly, greedy, and insensitive":

1. Yes, William F. Buckley isn't the most attractive man on Earth. But President Bush is certainly at LEAST as attractive as Clinton. Hannity is much better looking than Colmes. And I am a very handsome man, thank you very much. The typical Republican is NOT ugly.

2. Most Republicans are not "greedy", unless you mean that they want to keep more of the money THEY earn. Most do not wish to take money from other people, and many are quite philanthropic of their own free will. And if you want to talk about greed, how about the Democrats howling at the suggestion that the government should give a small fraction of OUR money back when it spends trillions and STILL has a surplus?

3. Finally, Republicans are NOT insensitive. I've heard this accusation several times, often on such subjects as welfare; since you offer no specific reason why you think we're "insensitive", I'll tackle welfare as an example.

Many Republicans think welfare is a bad idea; it is contrary to the principles that spur production, it creates a cycle of dependency, it DOESN'T bring people out of poverty. Thus, we are opposed to the idea. Certainly, we care about the poor and unemployed and would like to see their conditions better off, but most of us suggest getting them back to work or getting them the training they need to do so.

In most cases, Republicans and Democrats care about the same problems. We just think that the Democrats' ideas are delusional and ineffective. THAT doesn't make us insensitve.

Let's see... you've called Republicans rich, ugly, greedy, insensitive, and hinted at racism. Accuse us of sexism, homophobia, and a desire to wipe species off this earth, and I think you'll cover every fallacious accusation.


[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 11-06-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 11-06-2001).]
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Old 11-07-2001, 02:19 AM   #8
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As one last aside, I've been an avid fan of Rush Limbaugh since 1988. Since the beginning, he has warned conservatives of the liberal's tendency to accuse us of being greedy, uncaring, etc. Quite often, liberals write op-ed pieces, call talk shows, and speak on C-SPAN -- and prove Rush completely right.

I hate that I've had to once again defend conservatism, but I'm glad to see that, yet again, Rush is right.

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Old 11-07-2001, 07:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Interesting, billionaire Republican Mike Bloomberg has apparently bought the NYC mayoral race, with the help of over $40 million in campaign advertising (compared to $11 millon for his opponent), much of which featured out-going Mayor Rudolph Giuliani voicing his support of Bloomberg -- who has no political experience of any kind. [This message has been edited by The Wanderer (edited 11-06-2001).]
Eh? So what's your point? In any political race, one person is gonna have more money than the other. In any political race, endorsements by other candidates will be made. This is unlike any other race. What do you expect Bloomberg to say? Something like: "Hmmm, I have all this money to run with, but I refuse to use it for that. Also, I have Mayor Guiliani wanting to give me an endorsement, but I will refuse that also, knowing that my opponent doesn't have Mayor Guiliani wanting to give him an endorsement, and that's unfair."?
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Old 11-07-2001, 07:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
As one last aside, I've been an avid fan of Rush Limbaugh since 1988. Since the beginning, he has warned conservatives of the liberal's tendency to accuse us of being greedy, uncaring, etc. Quite often, liberals write op-ed pieces, call talk shows, and speak on C-SPAN -- and prove Rush completely right.
I hate that I've had to once again defend conservatism, but I'm glad to see that, yet again, Rush is right.
Amen, Achtung, it's the oldest trick in their books, right next to how we want to starve the elderly.
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Old 11-07-2001, 09:04 AM   #11
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Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
But President Bush is certainly at LEAST as attractive as Clinton.
No he isn't.

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Old 11-07-2001, 09:35 AM   #12
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a few clarifications:

1) "ugly" is not physical. it's personality, at least how i intended. the term, "ugly american" doesn't refer to our appearance, for instance.

2) republicans surely do want to keep more of the money they earn, but they surely don't cut back on spending. so they usually end up shoving more of the burden on the lower classes by increasing sales taxes and property taxes, while lowering income and business taxes. purely selfish motives. in the case of engler in michigan, he used the motive of property tax lowering to shove an additional 2% on the state sales tax--but now the property taxes are right back up to what they were and we also have the higher sales taxes. but he's been instrumental in lowering income taxes. how republican of him.

i now must look at bush here. yes, it's certainly extenuating circumstances; however, bush has been spending hundreds of billions left and right, while also throwing tax cuts left and right. what's his incentive to get the working class spending again? lower loan interest rates and business tax incentives. boy, it sure makes me want to spend more! yeaaaaah. it's not only fiscally irresponsible, but i challenge any corporation to be run like republicans run governments. with their flippant use of taxpayer funds ($200 billion on jets) and their flippant cutting of incoming funds (business incentives, tax cuts) they'd likely go bankrupt. lest i remind you, but bush played a similar economic game on texas, and the governor (a republican) has been bitching of all the deficits he left behind. considering our war and impending recession now, it's surely inevitable. and just think...imagine if the republicans were successful on that balanced budget amendment during clinton? bush would be severely hampered in his spending powers, but he'd continue throwing it all to war. hence, the domestic issues would be completely ignored.

but it's also funny. somehow, we have all this money to spend on wars all of a sudden, but our domestic infrastructure has been languishing for decades. at least we had 8 years of clinton so we could get our interstates and federal highways fixed up. i surely expect them to be reneglected, as reagan/bush did, during this current president.

3) let's go through the accusations:

rich = that's quite a few republicans, and does refer to the new mayor of nyc

ugly = same usage as "ugly american"

greedy = tax shift from more equitable income taxes to a tax base more burdensome on the working class; that's greedy

insensitive = it's in the eye of the beholder obviously. what i see as "insensitive" is likely to be seen by you as "preservation of values."

racism = depends on the republican, but isn't legislated

sexism = not legislated

homophobia = i won't even begin on how disgusted i am with the republicans on this one.

"genocide" = quite histrionic of you

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Old 11-07-2001, 09:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
As one last aside, I've been an avid fan of Rush Limbaugh since 1988. Since the beginning, he has warned conservatives of the liberal's tendency to accuse us of being greedy, uncaring, etc. Quite often, liberals write op-ed pieces, call talk shows, and speak on C-SPAN -- and prove Rush completely right.
well, some accusations are certainly warranted. but it's funny that if a republican warns you ahead of time of these accusations, it somehow negates the truth. if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck, whether rush somehow tries to pass it off as something else or not.

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Old 11-07-2001, 09:46 AM   #14
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No he isn't.
So, are you saying that you like Clinton's "sexydiamondbuttcut" hairdo?

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Old 11-07-2001, 10:59 AM   #15
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ah, I never said Bloomberg, (aka Greenburg, whatever you guys want to call him I guess), couldn't spend his money, but it's just amusing to me because Republicans screamed at how ridiculous it was when Hilary Clinton used obscene amounts of money to bolster her Senate campaign, and they screamed likewise at the newly elected Democratic Senator from NJ last year when he used millions of his own money to strengthen his chances

what is being avoided here is the simple fact that Bloomberg was being destroyed in the polls until he started running around the clock commercials featuring Rudolph Giuliani endorsing him for Mayor, if not for Bloomberg's enormous wealth, he would not have been able to generate that kind of momentum through commericials

what is disappointing to me is that he was elected based on the endorsement of Rudolph Giuliani

sorry this thread had to turn into a usless exercise in the perpetuation of partisan rhetoric

got to love Rush Limbaugh though, especially his modesty

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Old 11-07-2001, 11:07 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama:
So, are you saying that you like Clinton's "sexydiamondbuttcut" hairdo?


bwuahahahaha! buttcut...
no - not really
but I think that GWB looks like a monkey




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Old 11-07-2001, 11:28 AM   #17
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You make an interesting point, but your thread title is pretty weak...you say "partisan politics" as if it is some sort of negative thing...politics are supposed to be partisan; that's why we have political parties.
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Old 11-07-2001, 12:19 PM   #18
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Whortense:

So, you mean the typical Republican has an "ugly personality" rather than an ugly appearance. That's *so* much better.


Historically, conservative Republicans *do* want to cut back on spending (with the possible exception of defense spending which, not so shockingly, actually appears to be necessary). It is, if you can recall with any degree of accuracy, why the federal government got surpluses to begin with: the Republican Congress rejected Clinton's pork-barrel stimulus package and forced him to agree to a balanced budget.

Your arguments are flawed on several points:

1. Conservatives do not believe in raising some taxes to lower others. Looking at the current tax burden, most conservatives think that all taxes should be lowered. Those Republicans who think and act otherwise have done so in good faith that decreased spending would follow a tax increase (as the Democratic Congress promised the elder Bush in 1990), or have done so in opposition to the party.

2. LOWER TAXES DO NOT NECESSARILY LEAD TO DECREASED REVENUES. In other words, as the 1980's demonstrated, Reaganomics works. You lower taxes, people have more money to spend or invest, the economy improves, more wealth is generated. Often, even when each dollar is taxed less, as more wealth is generated, the NET revenue for the government increases.

3. Tax cuts for the wealthy isn't a bad thing. Why? First, they share a disproportionate burden of the taxes, if you look at the percentage of income that is confiscated. Conservatives believe (correctly) that such a tax scheme is a disincentive to economic prosperity and is morally wrong. Also, when you offer businesses tax incentives and lower loan rates, businesses (including small businesses that are NOT run by billionaires) can afford to spend more and hire more, thus spurring the economy. It's simple econimics.


And I would challenge any company to run their business like liberal Democrats. With 40+ years of the government being run mostly by Democrats, we've got ourselves trillions of dollars of debt by spending increases of upwards of THREE TIMES the rate of inflation.

I find it amazing how you've protrayed Republicans as the tax-and-spenders and you've ignored the social programs of FDR, LBJ, Clinton and other Democrats.

Finally, I jokingly suggested that you accuse us conservatives of being "sexist, racist, homophobic, etc." to complete your laundry list of false, but typical, accusations.

AND YOU DID!

You AGAIN prove my point.

My point is not that the accusations are false because they are predicted. It is that liberals resort to these accusations when they have very little to say of any real substance.

The accusations are false because they are not at the core of conservatism -- and because conservative Republicans aren't the only group housing a small minority of bigots.

First, the core beliefs of conservatism involve limited government, personal liberties, and personal accountability. Nowhere is bigotry implied.

Second, while the extreme right admittedly has a few racists, the same is ALSO true of the extreme left -- those who suggest that the U.S. Constitution is illegitimate for the SOLE reason that it was written by white men.
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Old 11-07-2001, 02:23 PM   #19
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Rush Limbaugh huh? Well, here are some "golden oldies" from Mr. Rush:


"One of the things I want to do before I die is conduct the Homeless Olympics...[Events would include] the 10-meter Shopping Cart Relay, the Dumpster Dig, and the Hop, Skip and Trip." (L.A. Times, 1/20/91)

On NAFTA: "If we are going to start rewarding no skills and stupid people--I'm serious, let the unskilled jobs, let the kinds of jobs that take absolutely no knowledge whatsoever to do--let stupid and unskilled Mexicans do that work." (Radio show quoted in FRQ, Fall/93)

Speculating on why a Mexican national won the New York marathon: "An immigration agent chased him for the last 10 miles." (USA Weekend, 1/26/92)

This is asinine! A Caesar Chavez Day in California? Wasn't he convicted of a crime?" (Quoted in FRQ, Winter/94)

"Kurt Cobain was, ladies and gentleman, I just--he was a worthless shred of human debris..." (TV show, 4/11/94)

"When a gay person turns his back on you, it is anything but an insult ; it's an invitation." (Quoted in FRQ, Summer/94)

"Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream." (Quoted in FRQ, Summer/93)

On the poverty line: "$14,400 for a family of four. That's not so bad." (Radio show, 11/9/93, quoted in FRQ, Winter/94)

"There are more American Indians alive today than there were when Columbus arrived or at any other time in history. Does this sound like a record of genocide?" (Told You So, p. 68)

Praising Strom Thurmond for calling a gay soldier "not normal": "He's not encumbered by being politically correct.... If you want to know what America used to be--and a lot of people wish it still were--then you listen to Strom Thurmond." (TV show, 9/1/93)
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Old 11-07-2001, 02:56 PM   #20
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Originally posted by radiodivision:
Rush Limbaugh huh? Well, here are some "golden oldies" from Mr. Rush:


"One of the things I want to do before I die is conduct the Homeless Olympics...[Events would include] the 10-meter Shopping Cart Relay, the Dumpster Dig, and the Hop, Skip and Trip." (L.A. Times, 1/20/91)

On NAFTA: "If we are going to start rewarding no skills and stupid people--I'm serious, let the unskilled jobs, let the kinds of jobs that take absolutely no knowledge whatsoever to do--let stupid and unskilled Mexicans do that work." (Radio show quoted in FRQ, Fall/93)

Speculating on why a Mexican national won the New York marathon: "An immigration agent chased him for the last 10 miles." (USA Weekend, 1/26/92)

This is asinine! A Caesar Chavez Day in California? Wasn't he convicted of a crime?" (Quoted in FRQ, Winter/94)

"Kurt Cobain was, ladies and gentleman, I just--he was a worthless shred of human debris..." (TV show, 4/11/94)

"When a gay person turns his back on you, it is anything but an insult ; it's an invitation." (Quoted in FRQ, Summer/94)

"Feminism was established to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream." (Quoted in FRQ, Summer/93)

On the poverty line: "$14,400 for a family of four. That's not so bad." (Radio show, 11/9/93, quoted in FRQ, Winter/94)

"There are more American Indians alive today than there were when Columbus arrived or at any other time in history. Does this sound like a record of genocide?" (Told You So, p. 68)

Praising Strom Thurmond for calling a gay soldier "not normal": "He's not encumbered by being politically correct.... If you want to know what America used to be--and a lot of people wish it still were--then you listen to Strom Thurmond." (TV show, 9/1/93)


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