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Old 03-30-2008, 04:19 AM   #21
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What an awful way to die. She'd have felt so terribly ill leading up to that. How these parents could ignore that is just beyond comprehension.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:25 PM   #22
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Re: Re: Parents Choose Prayer Over Doctor, Daughter Dies

Quote:
Originally posted by Axver


If letting your child die because you're delusional enough to believe prayer is a better idea than seeing a doctor isn't enough to make you a fanatic, then what is?!
Exactly.
and if they aren't of any particular religion, what grounds will they use as a defense.
Their own beliefs? Will that hold up in court?

I feel for the other 3 children left in their care. If not in their care anylonger then the possible miserable life in the foster system.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:47 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Exactly right. One doesn't pray for God to transport you from New York to Los Angeles, you board a plane and pray for a safe flight.
The scriptures are not full of things like this.

and no one was ever made a saint because a believer said I prayed to them and I was teleported?


Every religious person I know will say they believe that praying can lead people to being cured.

This is what religious people teach and preach all the time.


I guess it is fine to impose religious beliefs on others when it suits ones goals.

What if an adult said I will take no medical procedures, I will pray for the Lord to heal me?

How many of you would want medical treatment forced on that individual?
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:25 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Every religious person I know will say they believe that praying can lead people to being cured.

This is what religious people teach and preach all the time.


I guess it is fine to impose religious beliefs on others when it suits ones goals.

What if an adult said I will take no medical procedures, I will pray for the Lord to heal me?

How many of you would want medical treatment forced on that individual?

That of course, would depend on the nature of the illness or disease/injury etc.. and how well you knew the adult before said event.
But as an adult my wishes should be carried out in such an manner as my family, and lawyer have been instructed.
Especially if I become irrational to the point of saying something like this when they know it's not how I would normally act.
But if I had a devoutly religious sibling/friend who said it for themselves and I knew them to be this devout, then I would follow their instructions, since that is what they have told me from the beginning. Even though they could possibly be saved by medical means.
Children are different - they should not be allowed to suffer and die just because a devout parents prayer will save them.
I would intervene on a family or friends behalf and recommend the removal of a child in this situation, even if it was a sister or brother.
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:36 PM   #25
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These stories make me want to tear my hair out, and for all intents and purposes I do consider myself a Christian person. I have never understood the notion that God's will and science/medicine are mutually exclusive. I could not believe in a God if science and medicine were not God-willed. This case is one example of why I have avoided church and organized religion the past few years. I don't buy into the dichotomy of good vs. evil, Satan vs God, and that everything is one thing set against another (ie, prayer vs. medicine).
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Old 03-31-2008, 05:29 AM   #26
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It makes me crazy when I read things like this too - extremism of any type in any form is just so dangerous and that poor little girl who would have trusted that her mum and dad would do the right thing by her - grrrr
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Old 03-31-2008, 06:50 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep

This is what religious people teach and preach all the time.
"Religious people"-would that be all or some? I consider my mother to be a religious person. My brother is a diabetic and never in a million years would she consider prayer to cure his diabetes. He was diagnosed as an adult but if it had been as a child she would consider science to help, because of course there is no cure. She prays, actually every night because that's what she likes to do. She prays for strength and comfort, but she is also a one hundred percent believer in science. Many "religious people" are that way, probably more than you might think. Many are rational, intelligent beings.

And I completely agree with sue, adults can make that choice for themselves if that's what they choose to do and they are mentally competent. Children can't, and your first obligation as a parent is to honor that and protect that and put their well being above any of your ideology, religion, whatever.
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:20 PM   #28
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Maybe somebody should put them on trial for criminally negligent homicide and instead of getting a lawyer, they should sit there and pray not to go to jail.
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:34 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Take her to the doctor and then pray. They're not mutually exclusive.
I agree.
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Old 03-31-2008, 02:36 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Could just have easily been new agers.

Yeah.
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:34 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Could just have easily been new agers.
You've got to be one of the most logically consistent posters on this forum.
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Old 04-01-2008, 12:56 AM   #32
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I just didn't want to be following other peoples replies

But seriously, the mentality of these parents is probably criminally ignorant, but their reasons may have been pure. A cautionary tale of what happens when people abandon common sense. That contrasts against alternative medicine scams, abusing the desperation of the sick for a quick buck - they are downright malicious.
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Old 04-01-2008, 05:52 PM   #33
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This whole story is just so sad, I don't even know what to say.
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Old 04-29-2008, 07:35 AM   #34
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WESTON, Wisconsin (AP) -- Two parents who prayed as their 11-year-old daughter died of untreated diabetes were charged Monday with second-degree reckless homicide.

Family and friends had urged Dale and Leilani Neumann to get help for their daughter, but the father considered the illness "a test of faith" and the mother never considered taking the girl to the doctor because she thought her daughter was under a "spiritual attack," the criminal complaint said.

"It is very surprising, shocking that she wasn't allowed medical intervention," Marathon County District Attorney Jill Falstad said. "Her death could have been prevented."

Madeline Neumann died March 23 -- Easter Sunday -- at her family's rural Weston home. Her parents were told the body would be taken to Madison for an autopsy the next day.

"They responded, 'You won't need to do that. She will be alive by then,"' the medical examiner wrote in a report.

An autopsy determined that Madeline died from undiagnosed diabetic ketoacidosis, which left her with too little insulin in her body. Court records said she likely had some symptoms of the disease for months.

The Neumanns each face up to 25 years in prison if convicted. The couple and their attorney did not immediately return messages left Monday by The Associated Press.

Falstad said the Neumanns have cooperated with investigators and are not under arrest. They have agreed to make an initial court appearance Wednesday, she said.

Randall Wormgoor, a friend of the Neumanns, told police that Dale Neumann led Bible studies at his business, Monkey Mo Coffee Shop, and believed physical illness was due to sin, curable by prayer and by asking for forgiveness from God, the complaint said.

Wormgoor said he and his wife, Althea, were at the Neumann home when Madeline -- -- called Kara by her parents -- died. Wormgoor said he had urged the father to seek medical help and was told the illness "was a test of faith for the Neumann family and asked the Wormgoors to join them in praying for Kara to get well," the complaint said.

Althea Wormgoor said she "implored" the parents to seek medical help for the girl, the complaint said.

Leilani Neumann, 40, told the AP previously she never expected her daughter to die. The family believes in the Bible, which says healing comes from God, but they have nothing against doctors, she said.

Dale Neumann, 46, a former police officer, has said he has friends who are doctors and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.

According to court documents, Leilani Neumann said in a written statement to police that she never considered taking the girl, who was being home-schooled, to a doctor.

"We just thought it was a spiritual attack and we prayed for her. My husband Dale was crying and mentioned taking Kara to the doctor and I said, 'The Lord's going to heal her,' and we continued to pray," she wrote.

The father told investigators he noticed his daughter was weak and slower for about two weeks but he attributed it to symptoms of the girl reaching puberty, the complaint said.

A day before Madeline died, according to the criminal complaint, the father wrote an e-mail with the headline, "Help our daughter needs emergency prayer!!!!." It said his daughter was "very weak and pale at the moment with hardly any strength."

The girl's grandmother, Evalani Gordon, told police that she learned her granddaughter could not walk or talk on March 22 and advised Leilani Neumann to take the girl to a doctor.

Gordon eventually contacted a daughter-in-law in California who called police on a non-emergency line to report the girl was in a coma and needed medical help. An ambulance was dispatched shortly before some friends in the home called 911 to report the girl had stopped breathing, authorities said.

One relative told police that the girl's mother believed she "died because the devil is trying to stop Leilani from starting her own ministry," the complaint said.

The Neumanns said they moved to Weston, a suburb of Wausau in central Wisconsin, from California about two years ago to open the coffee shop and be closer to other relatives. The couple has three other children, ages 13 to 16; they are living with relatives.

The family does not belong to an organized religion or faith, Leilani Neumann has said.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said the parents once belonged to the Lighthouse Pentecostal Church but later became what he called religious "isolationists" involved in a prayer group of five people.

"They have gone out on their own," he said. "... They have a very narrow view of Scripture and I would say not many people hold to that narrow of view."

In March, an Oregon couple who belong to a church that preaches against medical care and believes in treating illness with prayer were charged with manslaughter and criminal mistreatment in the death of their 15-month-old daughter. The toddler died March 2 of bronchial pneumonia and a blood infection that could have been treated with antibiotics, the state medical examiner's office said.
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Old 04-29-2008, 10:13 AM   #35
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:15 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Billy Rotten
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Look up the phrase "false dichotomy," and you'll find this post.
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:18 PM   #37
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Like I said before, maybe they can forego having legal representation and just pray real hard that they don't get convicted.
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Old 04-29-2008, 02:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
and started CPR "as soon as the breath of life left" his daughter's body.
Did he lose his faith for a second?
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Old 04-29-2008, 04:31 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint
Take her to the doctor and then pray. They're not mutually exclusive.
Exactly!!!
Where in the bible does it forbid going to a Doctor????
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Old 04-30-2008, 11:54 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Purplereign

It makes me crazy when I read things like this too - extremism of any type in any form is just so dangerous and that poor little girl who would have trusted that her mum and dad would do the right thing by her - grrrr

It's really sad..

Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Could just have easily been new agers.
Yeah..
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