parallels of europe before 1933 and now in 02

[Zoomerang96]

anyone smelling what im smelling?

the surge of le pen. the strong showing of heider... theres more, though im not as familiar with it.

correct me if im wrong, but isnt the netherlands also witnessing something of the sort?

at home in canada, in SASKATCHEWAN of all places, a synagogue (sp?) (i believe its that cities only synagogue) was burnt down, not naturally either may i add.

in france, supposedly over 300 acts of vandalism have taken place against jewish monuments or landmarks, all since israel invaded palestinean areas.

-----

this is a butcher thread, i really wanted to go in depth here but i dont feel like ill get the chance too before sunday (elections in france).

so i was blunt, and i didnt go into great detail. forgive me.

does anyone else sense a strong, strong push towards not just the right, but the extreme right?

does anyone believe le pen or heider are viable candidates?

can anyone here explain, in your own opinion as to why the far right is becoming so catchy in places that WERE in nazi control 60 years ago?

do people not learn?

thoughts?

------------------
-deathbear

 

[Lilly]

NAZI Germany was a freak. Literally. I mean, a country once so prosperous brought to its knees because it lost a war. So that's not original. But the recession kept going and going with no relent. Hitler came into power because of eloquence, because he rallied the people together. The people of Germany were happy to be united and saw much promise in this man. I know there was a lot of propaganda, and I wonder how much truth was offered at the beginning, but the people believed what they were told, though the promises seemed to good to be true.

Calling Le Penne a Hitler-type is a bit of a stretch to me. Yes they are both crazy super right-wingers, but Le Penne isn't preaching about killing people in a genocidal rage is he? Le Penne is also a freak, produced from a multi-party system with lazy voters. Had more people turned out to vote, France would not be in the predicament it is in now.

As for people burning synagogues and whatnot, there's no excuse for that ever. But as with any decisive action taken by a government there will be a backlash. The intensity of such a backlash is determined by the intensity of the action the government takes and the control the people feel they have over the government.



------------------
Come on wisdom tooth, don't fail me now!

 

[Kieran McConville]

I think it's a fair observation. Nazi Germany was freakish but only in its extremity. 'Fascist' ideas had a lot of currency in the West generally throughout the 1930s, more so than some would like to admit. The roots today are much the same: those who regard themselves as the meat in the sandwich between the poor (immigrants, unemployed et al) and big business. They are the natural constituency of the Le Pens, the Berlusconis, the Hitlers and Mussolinis.

And we live in a corporate age. And a lot of poor wretched souls are on the move. So, yes I am smelling what you're smelling.


------------------
So will we die of shock
Die without a trial
Die on Good Friday
While holding each other tight
This is kind of about you
This is kind of about me
We just kind of lost our way
We were looking to be free

But one day
We'll float...

 

[Kieran McConville]

Oh, and for today's Europe, there is also the matter of the EU, which spells death for old-style European nationalism in any meaningful sense. Motherland vs. New World corporate occupation - it's an idea that Le Pen for one has milked. So have the British Tories. And 1920s & 30s Germany was itself somewhat of an occupied country - occupied by harsh war reparations after its defeat in 1918. You could go on all day, really. It's such a convoluted thing.

But it says a lot about how far right the world climate has moved, that the likes of Blair and Clinton were ever considered left-wing. You've gotta eat babies these days before they'll call you a rightwing loony...

 

[Salome]

Originally posted by Zoomerang96:
correct me if im wrong, but isnt the netherlands also witnessing something of the sort?

not really
our legislation (esp. on issues such as economic refugees, the rights given to prisoners etc) are more liberal then in most other countries
at least more liberal then in countries surrounding us
no matter who will be elected we will move towards stricter legislation in those areas, because after years of trying differently there is no other way left to go unless all other countries change their policies

IMO the 80's were a more threatening time in that respect then the present

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[melon]

In my humble opinion, the "rise" of Le Pen is media-hype. France, in their ever activist nature, was upset over the administration of leftist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin, whom the left saw as being too conciliatory to the right (doesn't it remind you of a certain party in America currently?). So France, which usually resigns itself to the fact that the primaries will always be the same two parties, threw off the primary as a silent protest to Jospin. Well, obviously, such a tactic backfired, which, to me, would be the equivalent of Pat Buchanan taking second place to Al Gore in the 2000 election. Rest assured, I see a very easy landslide victory for Jacques Chirac, with Le Pen in a very dismal second.

In addition, you have to realize that France has a gigantic Arab community. I have a feeling a lot of this vandalism has occurred from this community, versus the native French. Regardless, how is this any less appalling than the treatment of Arabs in the United States since September 11th?

What is hurting Europe, methinks, is the collapse of the security of socialist-democratic Europe. Eastern Europe had seen a rise in extreme right support immediately upon the collapse of communism, with Western Europe seeing very little of it. Now that the global economy is still uncertain, combined with the very Western concern over Islamic terrorism, you have the breeding ground for fascism.

Overall, though, as I do see an increase in extremist sentiments in Europe, I have a feeling that the American media is hyping it, mostly to get back at Europe for accusing America of being extreme right for years.

Melon

------------------
"Still, I never understood the elevation of greed as a political credo. Why would anyone want to base a political programme on bottomless dissatisfaction and the impossibility of happiness? Perhaps that was its appeal: the promise of luxury that in fact promoted endless work." - Hanif Kureishi, Intimacy

 

[Anthony]

I don't think Le Pen's so called rise is anything to worry about, and I don't think there are any parallels between the now and the past.

What one must understand, is that the sudden surge of right-wing parties, whether it be Le Pen or that Fortune fellow from some country (I forget, maybe its Holland - but this homosexual bald fellow is as rascist as he is fascist), is due to the fall of Socialist Democratic parties, and the fall of Socialist Democratic parties is largely due to extremely weak leadership, outdated policies and extinct blood. I fear that my Labour in Britain will grow weak, if Tony Blair continues his weak leadership.

What is needed in left of centre politics is conviction and strength, they have to believe in what they are saying; right now the only ones with enough conviction seem to be the right-wingers.

Ant.

 

[Zoomerang96]

just thought id throw in what i read at cnn.com today

according to a poll, whether it was conducted by them or someone else, im not sure, but they said at this stage, it looked to be about 29% in favor of le pen.

for an extremist party that is very high, dont kid yourself.

in the original voting, at the end of april he recieved 17%, with the president recieving 20.

whats so alarming about 29% is that chances are these numbers are too low, for the main reason there are many embarrased people who will vote for him, but wont speak out loud about it.

trust me, this is a huge platform for him. not only is he getting equal coverage on television (to the second) with the president, but if we are to look ahead, this could gather some serious speed.

and another point.

there leader right now, doesnt appear to have any appeal, and does look like a knob. you throw in a man that has stockwell day or heider good looks, with bill clinton charm, and you could sell snow to a canadian.

the president isnt giving enough credit to his counterpart. he should be doing all he can to make sure le pen doesnt get it.

------------------
-deathbear

 

[what a bomb!]

[This message has been edited by what a bomb! (edited 05-02-2002).]

[This message has been edited by what a bomb! (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[Zoomerang96]

Originally posted by what a bomb!:

and what people forget about Hitler (I am not defending him!) is that he was getting rid of the Jews unknown to the German people... but they never knew what was going on behing the scenes.

i dont agree with this. everyone was terrorized by the nazis. EVERYONE.

ive been reading about this lots lately, and the scare tactics implemented first by the sa and then the ss were so horrible, people knew what was going on, but were frozen with fear to do anything about it.

and i think thats to be expected. theyre only human.

though they did vote him in.

------------------
-deathbear

 

[what a bomb!]

I've retracted my post as I was a bit drunk when I posted it, then re-read it again after a couple of hours and decided I was talking crap!

 

[what a bomb!]

i know what you are saying Zoom, obviously I didn't mean the whole population, and it seems hard to believe all that was going on and they didn't know? I read somewhere that kids in German schools, when they hear of their history, they have a hard time believing it!

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by Anthony:
I don't think Le Pen's so called rise is anything to worry about, and I don't think there are any parallels between the now and the past.

What one must understand, is that the sudden surge of right-wing parties, whether it be Le Pen or that Fortune fellow from some country (I forget, maybe its Holland - but this homosexual bald fellow is as rascist as he is fascist), is due to the fall of Socialist Democratic parties, and the fall of Socialist Democratic parties is largely due to extremely weak leadership, outdated policies and extinct blood. I fear that my Labour in Britain will grow weak, if Tony Blair continues his weak leadership.

What is needed in left of centre politics is conviction and strength, they have to believe in what they are saying; right now the only ones with enough conviction seem to be the right-wingers.

Ant.

I largely agree with Anthony's post here. It's not that there is a swing to extreme right in Europe right now due to racist feelings, but the left is losing due to bad politics. A couple of years ago it was remarked that Europe had many left governments, a trend that is now reversing.
But bad politics is the main source of unrest. For several years many citizens (in the Netherlands, but I think also in the rest of Europe) have a feeling that they are being neglected by the government. They feel that the government does not listen to their concerns. So now they are voting against the ruling governments, with most of the votes going to parties that give voice to their unrest.

I do want to nuance the statement made by Anthony regarding Dutch newcomer Pim Fortuyn. It's true that he's as racist as he's facist as he is neither of them. He is, however, a populist voicing the unrest many Dutch people have. A short profile of him by The Economist can be found here.

This article also tries to give some reasons for his sudden popularity, reasons I think may apply for more countries in Europe. Coincidentally, yesterday The Economist published a survey of the Netherlands, where they conclude that the Dutch (famous for their inclination to complain at everything) should not have much to complain about as the situation isn't that bad in the Netherlands, compared to other countries. The introduction to the survey (and a very short history of the Netherlands with regard to its culture to compromise) can be found here.
Of course, many Dutch will start to complain about the survey by The Economist (you cannot read the whole survey on their website unless you're a member, but I think I'm going to buy that issue; the Dutch also love to read how others think of them), but hey!, we're Dutch

Anyway, I don't think you can draw parallels between 1933 and now in Europe. Europe's swing to the right is just more prominent because many countries had quite a left government the last few years. And FWIW, many right (conservative) parties are still more leftist than what many Americans consider left (both Clinton and Gore were considered center or center-right politicians, not left).

C ya!

Marty



------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[Zoomerang96]

what a bomb its not necessary for you to apologize, you didnt say anything wrong, i just didnt agree with it fully, thats all.

anyway, i have 2 cousins in germany who are in grades 4 and 6 i believe. they are not taught very much german history at all. i can see why, but at the same time, ignorance can lead to some ill-fated decisions from this generation, dont you think?

and you know what else? though im sure many people did know to an extent what was going on, im sure almost noone other than the people in charge, had any idea of just how terrible the situation really was.

when i was in a concentration camp, north of berlin (sachsenhausen) the bloody thing was in a residential zone! who'd want to live there?! these houses appeared to be old too, and the neighbourhood had existed since before the war, there is no question about that.

can you imagine the noise from that camp? how could you live with yourself if you lived there?!

------------------
-deathbear

[This message has been edited by Zoomerang96 (edited 05-02-2002).]

 

[brettig]

Bear, never underestimate the power of the Nazi propaganda system...

 

[Anthony]

Popmartijn:

I don't care what the article says, if someone says to me that a certain race (or, indeed, any race) is 'backward', that is a rascist statement as ever there was one. What he is doing with the Arabs in his country is not too disimilar with what Hitler did with Jews - use them as scapegoats.

Fortuyne maybe a 'populist', however, I find his views to be rascist. Emigration problems is NOT the fault of the migrants or the citizens, in my opinion, it is the fault of the government for not controlling it.

Ant.

 

[U2Bama]

Senator Robert Byrd of West Virginia (a former Ku Klux Klan member) and the unpredictable Senator Fritz Hollings of South Carolina were the only two U.S. senators to oppose Senator Lieberman's resolution of support for Israel, for those of you who find such events interesting.

~U2Alabama

 

[Popmartijn]

On the website of The Economist there is an article stating that anti-Semitism is not rising. What many people fail to recognize is that the (small) group (of mainly young Muslims) that is using despicable violence against Jewish targets is not the same group of people who have criticism on the Israeli government and its policies.

In another article in the print edition of The Economist (don't know why they have 2 separate articles on the same subject) they again state that anti-Semitism is a prejudice of a small minority in Europe and America. If someone's interested I'll transcribe it, but please take a look at the article on the website first.

C ya!

Marty

------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

 

[DrTeeth]

Originally posted by Anthony:
I don't care what the article says, if someone says to me that a certain race (or, indeed, any race) is 'backward', that is a rascist statement as ever there was one. What he is doing with the Arabs in his country is not too disimilar with what Hitler did with Jews - use them as scapegoats.

Fortuyn never said anything about backward races but called the Islamic culture backward for (amongst other things) their stance on emancipation, freedom of speach/press etc. I don't think that's a racist remark. I agree his ideas on imigration (the spearhead of his program) are questionable and he sure as hell is getting a lot of votes because of it, but comparing him to Hitler goes too far. I haven't found any evidence on Fortuyn being fascist either.

 

[Foxxern]

In fact, it is somewhat of amisconception that Hitler rose to power directly because of the recession in Germany cause by wartime reparations. The Weimar Republic was actually able to pay off Germany's debts, and Germany enjoyed a brief period of prosperity during the late 1920s. However, the economy soon went downwards, and Hitler, at the time not known as a genocidal maniac, took power as chancellor when the Nazis became more popular under ideas such as strong nationalism and general xenophobia. It was only later that he began to exact actions against these minorities, after he led Germany into economic prosperity.

The similarities between Le Pen and Hitler are indeed very striking. From the fact that they are both former soldiers, to their own brand of anti-Semitism. Luckily, France turned out in huge numbers to make sure Le Pen was not elected. However, this election should have served as a huge wake-up call to Chirac that he needs to step it up.

------------------
Change is the only constant

 

[Foxxern]

Originally posted by Lilly:
Calling Le Penne a Hitler-type is a bit of a stretch to me. Yes they are both crazy super right-wingers, but Le Penne isn't preaching about killing people in a genocidal rage is he? Le Penne is also a freak, produced from a multi-party system with lazy voters. Had more people turned out to vote, France would not be in the predicament it is in now.

Not as much of a stretch as it may seem. Hitler at first never talked about wiping out the Jews or any other group of people. Germany at the time also had many politcal parties, and the people were generally apathetic and unreceptive towards democracy. The majority of Germans did not even support Hitler and the Nazis initially. But it didn't take a majority to put Hitler into the chancellor's position. The French people should watch out if they want to preserve democracy and European unity.



------------------
Change is the only constant

 

[Zoomerang96]

Originally posted by Foxxern:
Not as much of a stretch as it may seem. Hitler at first never talked about wiping out the Jews or any other group of people.

actually what makes him and germany all the more unsettling, is the fact that he DID give plenty of warning!

have you read mein kaumf? (sp?) the whole thing is laced with anti-semitism, and to say he didnt give the world any idea of what he was about to do is simply not true.

however, me and you may be talking about certain degrees of awareness, and i will definately concede that NOONE had any idea that things would be as bad as they really were.

------------------
-deathbear

 

[DrTeeth]

Pim Fortuyn has been shot!!!!

 

[hiphop]

One of the most important reasons why Hitler could have success was the massive support in money from the steel (defense) industry.
Krupp, Thyssen,... without them Hitler wouldn?t have had enough money to rise. Take this into account. Take into account that Le Pen has enough media, that Berlusconi owns half italy, that Haider is a land owner big style. Take into account that the social systems all over West Europe are being destroyed backed by the argument af making no new debts (Maastricht criteria, very strange that all of those independent national economies are at a crisis at the same time!). Take into account what is happening worldwide in terms of globalization.
Ummmm, and take into account that Vice President?s of top defense contractors see themselves in "crisis"...
I am not going to talk of right wingers or left wingers here. Or so called democratic socialists or other crap. All I know is that strategies and policys are not planned and executed because public opinions change. Look at all this media hype. Look at the P2 in Italy. Look at Haider?s studies in the U.S. and his travels to Irak (although we don?t know what?s behind this, maybe a deal?).
But tell me who could get a new Hitler? If the Pentagon gives Military Training to over 70 countries? If the U.S. sold weapons or took part in 39 out of 42 conflicts in the year 2000 (that?s 92%)? No way, I dare say. Oh, and take into account that Eisenhower already warned of the military - industrial complex - no wonder, with the WWII just over.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Pim Fortuyn has been shot!!!!

Unbelievable. Here's the story: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&ncid=716&e=3&u=/ap/20020506/ap_on_re_eu/netherlands_politician_attacked

Dutch Politician Fortuyn Is Killed
Mon May 6, 1:10 PM ET

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Right-wing Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was shot dead by an unidentified gunman, Dutch television reported.



Police confirmed the attack, but did not immediately confirm his death.

Earlier, Fortuyn's spokesman said Fortuyn was unlikely to survive the gunshot wounds.

Fortuyn was shot at least six times in the head, chest and neck, as he was going for a radio interview in the town of Hilversum, 12 miles southeast of Amsterdam, Dutch media reported.

The attack against Fortuyn, 53, came nine days before national elections. Opinion polls predicted the flamboyant politician, campaigning on an anti-immigrant platform, would lead one of the largest parties in parliament.

Dutch television said paramedics treated Fortuyn where he fell at the entrance to a building, and he was not taken to hospital.

No information was immediately available about the assailant, but Dutch television said at least four people chased him as he fled.

"I saw Pim Fortuyn lying on the ground with a bullet wound in his head," said television reporter Dave Abspoel.

Prime Minister Wim Kok broke off campaigning in the western city of Haarlem for the May 15 general elections.

 

[Popmartijn]

Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Pim Fortuyn has been shot!!!!

Unbelievable!

Who could do such a thing? What is happening here?
I mean, you could disagree with him (many did), but shooting him? How insane can you get?

Martijn

 

[Salome]

hate, narrow minded politicians (who only care about the elections) and suggestive media

they wanted to get rid of him and they managed it

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

 

[Anthony]

Yes, I have just heard the announcement on TV, Pim Fortuyn has died, shot six times apparently.

Though there have been more tragic deaths before, what makes this one particularly tragic is that the right-wing parties all acorss Europe will send a message back, and I believe they will return with a vengeance and increasing popularity - the murder of Fortuyn has now made less people sympathetic towards the immigrants.

I am concerned for the future.

Ant.

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Though there have been more tragic deaths before, what makes this one particularly tragic is that the right-wing parties all acorss Europe will send a message back, and I believe they will return with a vengeance and increasing popularity - the murder of Fortuyn has now made less people sympathetic towards the immigrants.

exactly....

 

[Salome]

not exactly

there has been no news yet who killed him
they even think it might have been a 'supporter' of some extreme right-wing group who are disgruntled because of his 'success'

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it