parallels of europe before 1933 and now in 02 - Page 3

Anthony · 05-07-2002, 02:21 AM

When a humble writer such as Salman Rushdie can be granted a 'fatwa' all becuase of ONE line in one of his many books, I don't find it suprising that a man who called the entire Islamic culture a backward culture was assasinated before the elections.

If it can happen to Martin Luther King, it can happen to anyone.

Ant.

Anthony · 05-07-2002, 02:24 AM

Oh, so he WASN'T a right-winger?

Ant.

Salome · 05-07-2002, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony:
If it can happen to Martin Luther King, it can happen to anyone.

I fail to see the similarities

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

Anthony · 05-07-2002, 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Salome:

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony:
If it can happen to Martin Luther King, it can happen to anyone.

I fail to see the similarities

The similarity is this; you can kill anybody. And when a person is calling a group of people backward, its bound to piss people off.

Ant.

DrTeeth · 05-07-2002, 02:28 AM

I don't think the concept of martyrdom is embedded in the Dutch culture. I think his political party will wither away eventually considering the fact most people don't even know the name of the #2 on the list.

Salome · 05-07-2002, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony:
Oh, so he WASN'T a right-winger?

Ant.

one of the reasons why I refrain from an opinion about people like Limbaugh, Moore etc etc is because I know near to nothing about these people

maybe read some articles (usually just 1 or 2 statements in or out of context) + some opinions on this forum

------------------
Salome
Shake it, shake it, shake it

Anthony · 05-07-2002, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Salome:

Quote:

Originally posted by Anthony:
Oh, so he WASN'T a right-winger?

Ant.

one of the reasons why I refrain from an opinion about people like Limbaugh, Moore etc etc is because I know near to nothing about these people

maybe read some articles (usually just 1 or 2 statements in or out of context) + some opinions on this forum

Very subtle. However, I have been reading on him and recently, the British media has been very concerned with his sudden popularity, along with Le Pen's individual case, from what I saw, he was quite right-wing. And please now, I distinguish between right-wing and Fascism. After all, we have lots of right-wing politicians in Britain, and they are not fascists (with the exception of Margaret Thatcher and her followers).

Ant.

DrTeeth · 05-07-2002, 02:32 AM

Ant, Pim Foruyn was a right-winger within the Dutch political spectrum but wasn't as right as Le Pen, de Winter or Haider. He wasn't a racist and he wasn't a fascist either.

Anthony · 05-07-2002, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Ant, Pim Foruyn was a right-winger within the Dutch political spectrum but wasn't as right as Le Pen, de Winter or Haider. He wasn't a racist and he wasn't a fascist either.

Thanks, DrTeeth, however, I don't think a person who states (in his own words) that an Islamic culture is a backward culture is not a racist.

He may not have been one officially, however, the British National PArty aren't officially racist, either. Neither is Le Pen.

I don't think he was liberal in his opinions, and I woulnd't call him tolerant, either.

Ant.

Popmartijn · 05-07-2002, 02:39 AM

The problem with the image of his party was not Fortuyn (or many of the others on his list) but with the people who want(ed) to vote for him. You can say that he was on the right of the political spectrum, but he clearly wasn't extreme right (as those other figures that are mentioned here: Le Pen, Haider and De Winter).

BTW, I just read that, among other politicians, Blair has also expressed his horror with this murder (saying something like, and I'm trying to paraphrase, "Whatever feelings politicians may cause, the only way to express them is in the voting booth")

Martijn

bullet the blue sky · 05-13-2002, 07:25 PM

Going back to the original question posed, to even suggest that Europe now is anywhere near a political parallel to 1933 or before is a total insult to those that lived back then.

Zoomerang96 · 05-14-2002, 02:26 AM

i dont think so.

though im not as familiar as someone who actually lives in europe, with their politics, i think its fair to compare.

though comparing in general is useless for no two situations are ever worth comparing, unless all parties discussing the issue are fully aware of the differences and complexities from subject a to subject b.

its never the same.

------------------
after years of waiting, nothing came.

Popmartijn · 05-14-2002, 02:40 AM

I think the comparison is not only an insult to those who suffered then, but also to the people in Europe today. Again, there is no comparison. The social and economical situation is vastly different now as is the (unfortunate) violence that is happening now.
Here is an article in The Economist (again) explaining the situation. As you can see, the situation is no different in Europe as it is in the USA.

C ya!

Marty

------------------
People criticize me but I know it's not the end
I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends

Spearhead - People In Tha Middle

Anthony · 05-14-2002, 05:40 AM

I don't think its an insult to compare at all. This 'insult' stigma is really quire irrelevant to the heart of the situation; of what use is history if we don't use it to prevent the worst from happening in the future?

My grandfather, God bless his soul, fought in to wars, the Second World War and the Spanish Civil War, and he was always comparing then to now and vice versa. Once you live through something like that, you DO compare, its the only way you learn anything. Atleast, thats what he told me.

So, while I'm not party with this 'insult' business, and think that Europe, like ANY instititute or body in the world, should constantly be criticised and subjected to comparisons; I do NOT believe there is a similarity with what happpened then. Its not an insult to compare, just a bit too far-fetched.

Ant.

05-07-2002, 02:21 AM	#41
Anthony Refugee Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,538 Local Time: 08:03 AM	When a humble writer such as Salman Rushdie can be granted a 'fatwa' all becuase of ONE line in one of his many books, I don't find it suprising that a man who called the entire Islamic culture a backward culture was assasinated before the elections. If it can happen to Martin Luther King, it can happen to anyone. Ant. __________________

05-07-2002, 02:24 AM	#42
Anthony Refugee Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,538 Local Time: 08:03 AM	Oh, so he WASN'T a right-winger? Ant. __________________

05-14-2002, 05:40 AM	#54
Anthony Refugee Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: London, UK Posts: 1,538 Local Time: 08:03 AM	I don't think its an insult to compare at all. This 'insult' stigma is really quire irrelevant to the heart of the situation; of what use is history if we don't use it to prevent the worst from happening in the future? My grandfather, God bless his soul, fought in to wars, the Second World War and the Spanish Civil War, and he was always comparing then to now and vice versa. Once you live through something like that, you DO compare, its the only way you learn anything. Atleast, thats what he told me. So, while I'm not party with this 'insult' business, and think that Europe, like ANY instititute or body in the world, should constantly be criticised and subjected to comparisons; I do NOT believe there is a similarity with what happpened then. Its not an insult to compare, just a bit too far-fetched. Ant. __________________

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05-07-2002, 02:28 AM	#45
DrTeeth Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Q continuum Posts: 4,770 Local Time: 09:03 AM	I don't think the concept of martyrdom is embedded in the Dutch culture. I think his political party will wither away eventually considering the fact most people don't even know the name of the #2 on the list.

05-07-2002, 02:32 AM	#48
DrTeeth Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: The Q continuum Posts: 4,770 Local Time: 09:03 AM	Ant, Pim Foruyn was a right-winger within the Dutch political spectrum but wasn't as right as Le Pen, de Winter or Haider. He wasn't a racist and he wasn't a fascist either.

05-07-2002, 02:39 AM	#50
Popmartijn Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Netherlands Posts: 32,852 Local Time: 10:03 AM	The problem with the image of his party was not Fortuyn (or many of the others on his list) but with the people who want(ed) to vote for him. You can say that he was on the right of the political spectrum, but he clearly wasn't extreme right (as those other figures that are mentioned here: Le Pen, Haider and De Winter). BTW, I just read that, among other politicians, Blair has also expressed his horror with this murder (saying something like, and I'm trying to paraphrase, "Whatever feelings politicians may cause, the only way to express them is in the voting booth") Martijn

05-13-2002, 07:25 PM	#51
bullet the blue sky Refugee Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Earth Posts: 1,125 Local Time: 09:03 AM	Going back to the original question posed, to even suggest that Europe now is anywhere near a political parallel to 1933 or before is a total insult to those that lived back then.

05-14-2002, 02:26 AM	#52
Zoomerang96 ONE love, blood, life Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: canada Posts: 13,465 Local Time: 03:03 AM	i dont think so. though im not as familiar as someone who actually lives in europe, with their politics, i think its fair to compare. though comparing in general is useless for no two situations are ever worth comparing, unless all parties discussing the issue are fully aware of the differences and complexities from subject a to subject b. its never the same. ------------------ after years of waiting, nothing came.

05-14-2002, 02:40 AM	#53
Popmartijn Blue Crack Supplier Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Netherlands Posts: 32,852 Local Time: 10:03 AM	I think the comparison is not only an insult to those who suffered then, but also to the people in Europe today. Again, there is no comparison. The social and economical situation is vastly different now as is the (unfortunate) violence that is happening now. Here is an article in The Economist (again) explaining the situation. As you can see, the situation is no different in Europe as it is in the USA. C ya! Marty ------------------ People criticize me but I know it's not the end I try to kick the truth, not just to make friends Spearhead - People In Tha Middle