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Old 05-06-2002, 02:18 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lilly:
Calling Le Penne a Hitler-type is a bit of a stretch to me. Yes they are both crazy super right-wingers, but Le Penne isn't preaching about killing people in a genocidal rage is he? Le Penne is also a freak, produced from a multi-party system with lazy voters. Had more people turned out to vote, France would not be in the predicament it is in now.
Not as much of a stretch as it may seem. Hitler at first never talked about wiping out the Jews or any other group of people. Germany at the time also had many politcal parties, and the people were generally apathetic and unreceptive towards democracy. The majority of Germans did not even support Hitler and the Nazis initially. But it didn't take a majority to put Hitler into the chancellor's position. The French people should watch out if they want to preserve democracy and European unity.



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Old 05-06-2002, 04:21 AM   #22
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Originally posted by Foxxern:
Not as much of a stretch as it may seem. Hitler at first never talked about wiping out the Jews or any other group of people.

actually what makes him and germany all the more unsettling, is the fact that he DID give plenty of warning!

have you read mein kaumf? (sp?) the whole thing is laced with anti-semitism, and to say he didnt give the world any idea of what he was about to do is simply not true.

however, me and you may be talking about certain degrees of awareness, and i will definately concede that NOONE had any idea that things would be as bad as they really were.

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Old 05-06-2002, 12:36 PM   #23
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Pim Fortuyn has been shot!!!!

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Old 05-06-2002, 12:51 PM   #24
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One of the most important reasons why Hitler could have success was the massive support in money from the steel (defense) industry.
Krupp, Thyssen,... without them Hitler wouldnīt have had enough money to rise. Take this into account. Take into account that Le Pen has enough media, that Berlusconi owns half italy, that Haider is a land owner big style. Take into account that the social systems all over West Europe are being destroyed backed by the argument af making no new debts (Maastricht criteria, very strange that all of those independent national economies are at a crisis at the same time!). Take into account what is happening worldwide in terms of globalization.
Ummmm, and take into account that Vice Presidentīs of top defense contractors see themselves in "crisis"...
I am not going to talk of right wingers or left wingers here. Or so called democratic socialists or other crap. All I know is that strategies and policys are not planned and executed because public opinions change. Look at all this media hype. Look at the P2 in Italy. Look at Haiderīs studies in the U.S. and his travels to Irak (although we donīt know whatīs behind this, maybe a deal?).
But tell me who could get a new Hitler? If the Pentagon gives Military Training to over 70 countries? If the U.S. sold weapons or took part in 39 out of 42 conflicts in the year 2000 (thatīs 92%)? No way, I dare say. Oh, and take into account that Eisenhower already warned of the military - industrial complex - no wonder, with the WWII just over.
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Old 05-06-2002, 01:20 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Pim Fortuyn has been shot!!!!

Unbelievable. Here's the story: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...ician_attacked

Dutch Politician Fortuyn Is Killed
Mon May 6, 1:10 PM ET

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - Right-wing Dutch politician Pim Fortuyn was shot dead by an unidentified gunman, Dutch television reported.



Police confirmed the attack, but did not immediately confirm his death.

Earlier, Fortuyn's spokesman said Fortuyn was unlikely to survive the gunshot wounds.

Fortuyn was shot at least six times in the head, chest and neck, as he was going for a radio interview in the town of Hilversum, 12 miles southeast of Amsterdam, Dutch media reported.

The attack against Fortuyn, 53, came nine days before national elections. Opinion polls predicted the flamboyant politician, campaigning on an anti-immigrant platform, would lead one of the largest parties in parliament.

Dutch television said paramedics treated Fortuyn where he fell at the entrance to a building, and he was not taken to hospital.

No information was immediately available about the assailant, but Dutch television said at least four people chased him as he fled.

"I saw Pim Fortuyn lying on the ground with a bullet wound in his head," said television reporter Dave Abspoel.

Prime Minister Wim Kok broke off campaigning in the western city of Haarlem for the May 15 general elections.

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Old 05-06-2002, 01:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by DrTeeth:
Pim Fortuyn has been shot!!!!

Unbelievable!
Who could do such a thing? What is happening here?
I mean, you could disagree with him (many did), but shooting him? How insane can you get?

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Old 05-06-2002, 02:04 PM   #27
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hate, narrow minded politicians (who only care about the elections) and suggestive media

they wanted to get rid of him and they managed it

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Old 05-06-2002, 02:07 PM   #28
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Yes, I have just heard the announcement on TV, Pim Fortuyn has died, shot six times apparently.

Though there have been more tragic deaths before, what makes this one particularly tragic is that the right-wing parties all acorss Europe will send a message back, and I believe they will return with a vengeance and increasing popularity - the murder of Fortuyn has now made less people sympathetic towards the immigrants.

I am concerned for the future.

Ant.
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:11 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Though there have been more tragic deaths before, what makes this one particularly tragic is that the right-wing parties all acorss Europe will send a message back, and I believe they will return with a vengeance and increasing popularity - the murder of Fortuyn has now made less people sympathetic towards the immigrants.

exactly....
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:15 PM   #30
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not exactly

there has been no news yet who killed him
they even think it might have been a 'supporter' of some extreme right-wing group who are disgruntled because of his 'success'

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Old 05-06-2002, 02:17 PM   #31
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sorry, I should have said "exactly what I was thinking." Sometimes I think inaccurate things.
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Old 05-06-2002, 02:25 PM   #32
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That is indeed, correct, Salome.
However, I do not think that it will discourage HIS party and the others to rally for their own cause, this very incident is the point; he has become a martyr. A crucified Messiah before the sermon on the mount.

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Old 05-06-2002, 02:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
Yes, I have just heard the announcement on TV, Pim Fortuyn has died, shot six times apparently.

Though there have been more tragic deaths before, what makes this one particularly tragic is that the right-wing parties all acorss Europe will send a message back, and I believe they will return with a vengeance and increasing popularity - the murder of Fortuyn has now made less people sympathetic towards the immigrants.

I am concerned for the future.

Ant.
agreed.

i also agree with the martyr bit.

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[This message has been edited by Zoomerang96 (edited 05-06-2002).]
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Old 05-06-2002, 05:46 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
BTW, I just read that, among other politicians, Blair has also expressed his horror with this murder (saying something like, and I'm trying to paraphrase, "Whatever feelings politicians may cause, the only way to express them is in the voting booth")
Martijn
Tony Blair expresses his horror everytime someone argues with him, the man is always horrified. And as wise as his comment may be, some feelings are simply too strong to be expressed in a voting booth.

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Old 05-07-2002, 03:02 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn:
Unbelievable!
Who could do such a thing? What is happening here?
I mean, you could disagree with him (many did), but shooting him? How insane can you get?

Martijn

You're actually surprised?

Ant.
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Old 05-07-2002, 03:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
he has become a martyr. A crucified Messiah before the sermon on the mount.
he has become a human being who has been murdered because of his opinions

he never had anything to do with Le Pen, De Winter or other right wing parties



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Old 05-07-2002, 03:11 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:

You're actually surprised?
the netherlands are a democracy you know?

what was the last time a politician has been murdered in a democracy
and not even because of his point of view on one particular subject but because of his opinions in general

people in the netherlands aren't surprised but shocked

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Old 05-07-2002, 03:12 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Salome:
Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:
he has become a martyr. A crucified Messiah before the sermon on the mount.
he has become a human being who has been murdered because of his opinions

he never had anything to do with Le Pen, De Winter or other right wing parties

Except that he, like Le Pen, blamed a lot of the country's problems on imigrants, and was very much in favour of abolishing such immigration. Apart from being extreme right-wingers, they both had very similar policies. They may not have been in connection directly, but politically they are quite a resemblance. There are wider issues in question besides one man dying.

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Old 05-07-2002, 03:15 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anthony:

You're actually surprised?

Ant.
Yes, I AM surprised that someone could get it in his head to shoot him. I mean, you could disagree with the man (quite rightly so on many points), but murder him because of his opinions? I'd never expected this to happen here.

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Old 05-07-2002, 03:17 AM   #40
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he isn't dying he has been murdered

about every political parties in the netherlands recognises that we need to do something about our immigration legislations
I don't know what that tells you about us, but it is the truth

our laws re. immigration are far less restrictive then in other european countries

he was a populist
putting him in a group with the european right wing doesn't sound right to me

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