Palestinian ceasfire in question after three children murdered

[financeguy]

http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0409/mideast.html

Looks like the Israeli army has gone back to its trigger happy ways....

[A_Wanderer]

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - Israeli troops fired on a group of Palestinian youths in a Gaza refugee camp Saturday, killing three teenagers in the deadliest incident in the Gaza Strip since Israel and the Palestinians declared a cease-fire two months ago.

The two sides offered dramatically different versions of the shooting, which shattered weeks of calm and added to tensions surrounding plans by Jewish extremists to march on a disputed holy site in Jerusalem on Sunday.

Ali Abu Zeid, a 22-year-old Rafah resident, said the teens were playing soccer when the ball was kicked toward a border fence. “The kids ran after it, and that’s when we heard gunfire,” he said. Palestinian hospital officials said two of the dead youths were 15, and the third was 14.

An Israeli commander at the scene said the youths were spotted crawling on their stomachs deep inside a closed military zone. He said three of the youths got to their feet and began running toward the border. The teenagers were about 250 yards into the closed area when they were shot on a military patrol road, he said.


“These kids were not playing soccer,” said the commander, whose name was withheld under military regulations. “You don’t get there by accident.”

link

So these "children" are teenagers, male teenagers at that. In a restricted zone and the accounts of what occured differ. There has been no formal investigation into what has occured ~ you fall back onto the "child murdering" accusation very quickly.

When considering Palestinian Youths killed under disputed circumstances it is important to consider the possibility that they may have been up to something. After all they are a product of their society and that society certainly does seem to glorify murder and bloody death.

[financeguy]

There can be no moral equivalence between thieves of land (i.e. "settlers") and defenders of a person's homeland (i.e. Palestinian "terrorists"). The land should be returned to its rightful owners.

[deep]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer

link

So these "children" are teenagers, male teenagers at that. In a restricted zone and the accounts of what occured differ. There has been no formal investigation into what has occured ~ you fall back onto the "child murdering" accusation very quickly.

When considering Palestinian Youths killed under disputed circumstances it is important to consider the possibility that they may have been up to something. After all they are a product of their society and that society certainly does seem to glorify murder and bloody death.

This type of reasoning is disgusting.

[A_Wanderer]

My reasoning is that many Palestinian kids are indoctrinated to aspire to martyrdom and murder by various groups and sadly their families and that some of them are trained to do so ~ I reason that this means there is a real possibility that Palestinian Youths in a restricted zone could have been up to no good. Until there is an inquiry then I will lean towards the IDF explaination rather than that given by the very groups that give kids guns and give them candy for screaming "I want to be a shahid".

What I find disgusting is that deadly weapons are being put in the hands of children for murder and the end product of this is either a bunch of Palestinian kids with their brains blown out or a bunch of Israeli's blown to pieces across a wall (not just setters get blown to pieces in bombings)

[STING2]

Originally posted by financeguy
There can be no moral equivalence between thieves of land (i.e. "settlers") and defenders of a person's homeland (i.e. Palestinian "terrorists"). The land should be returned to its rightful owners.

Israelies are on their homeland but they don't seek to resolve their disputes with Palestinians by sending teenagers into discos and supermarkets strapped with bombs to kill as many people as possible. After 60 years of war against Israel, isn't it about time the Palestinians and the Arabs adopted a new strategy to get what they want? What has 60 years of terrorism done for the Palestinian people? Can anyone name a single non-violent Palestinian movement or organization? If the Palestinians and Arabs had simply agreed to the United Nations deal in 1948, they would have 50% of the land and Jerusalem would be under UN control.

[financeguy]

The Arab nations should have done more for the Palestinians, I accept. I would blame Jordan to some extent.

[deep]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
An Israeli commander at the scene said the youths were spotted crawling on their stomachs deep inside a closed military zone. He said three of the youths got to their feet and began running toward the border. The teenagers were about 250 yards into the closed area when they were shot on a military patrol road, he said.

So it is just that simple

see Palestinian youths

murder them.



Post all the unrelated pictures you want.

These youths were not armed.

[deep]

A Palestinian boy cries after learning his brother was killed by Israeli troops in the Gaza Strip. An Israeli official said the three teenagers killed were prohibited from being in the area.

[A_Wanderer]

Originally posted by deep



So it is just that simple

see Palestinian youths

murder them.



Post all the unrelated pictures you want.

These youths were not armed.

See men sneaking across border, fire warning shots and then shoot to incapacitate and/or kill ~ seems fine enough, especially considering that they could have been carrying concealed weapons or explosives.

[verte76]

I really don't know what to think. They were unarmed but in a restricted zone. It's true that many Palestinians have a Wahhabist-type mentality about jihad as holy war, etc, etc. How do we know that these kids did? It's unfortunate that the killings took place because now other killings might follow, and I just wish the killings would stop. Maybe I'm too idealistic.

[foray]

Originally posted by STING2
Israelies are on their homeland but they don't seek to resolve their disputes with Palestinians by sending teenagers into discos and supermarkets strapped with bombs to kill as many people as possible.

Uh, what do you call the Sabra & Shatila massacres...?


foray

[melon]

Originally posted by A_Wanderer
My reasoning is that many Palestinian kids are indoctrinated to aspire to martyrdom and murder by various groups and sadly their families and that some of them are trained to do so ~ I reason that this means there is a real possibility that Palestinian Youths in a restricted zone could have been up to no good.

We have a territory with no real working infrastructure and no economy, coupled with around 75% unemployment.

Give that many people idle time, and it will certainly devolve into fanaticism. Add the opium that is religion into the mix that tells you that dying as a "martyr" automatically sends you to Heaven, no matter what an abusive asshole you've been your entire life, and I certainly see why they do it. What's the point of living?

Melon

[STING2]

Originally posted by melon


We have a territory with no real working infrastructure and no economy, coupled with around 75% unemployment.

Give that many people idle time, and it will certainly devolve into fanaticism. Add the opium that is religion into the mix that tells you that dying as a "martyr" automatically sends you to Heaven, no matter what an abusive asshole you've been your entire life, and I certainly see why they do it. What's the point of living?

Melon

According to the United Nations Human Development Report for 2004, the Palestinian Occupied Territories have a better standard of living than countries like Syria, South Africa, Egypt, India, and Pakistan. Ranked at #102 in the world, the Occupied Territories have a standard of living that is nearly equal to China at #94 and Iran at #101.

[retro]

A little history lesson about Israel and ‘Palestine’


The Jews (or Hebrews) in 922 BC lived in two countries known as Judah and Israel. (previously they were simply known as the Kingdom of Israel) This predates Islam or any mention of Palestine.

In the 6th Century BC Judah was conquered by The Babylonians

In 4th Century BC the region became part of Alexander’s Great Empire

In 168 BC the Jews revolted and got control of their land back. They called it Judea.

In 63 BC the Romans conquered the land. At this point it’s called Palestine, but the Jews still live there.

In the 7th century Muslim Arab armies invaded Palestine.

In 1517 AD The Ottoman Empire gained control of Palestine

In 1917 AD The British Empire gained control of the region

In 1948 The British government gives back Israel to the Jews while also having a separate Palestinian state. After going to war with several other countries who were threatened by Israel's presence, Israel took over Palestine.

For a thousand years before 1948, many Jews fled to Europe. As most of you know at one time or another were persecuted. Meanwhile several Jews stayed in the Palestine region. (also at points being persecuted by whomever controlled the region)

History lesson over.


First I’d like to say that I do not agree with Israeli soldiers killing anyone. I can’t stand it when they go into the West Bank or Gaza. I’m not a big fan of the Israeli policy when it comes to dealing with Palestine. I believe there is a better way…there has to be.

That being said… if a Palestinian walked into a supermarket, crowded bus, restaurant or a hotel and blew up innocent women and children, I can guarantee you that we would not be having this discussion right now. I can guarantee you that this thread would never have been started. If you’re going to point fingers then let’s be fair. A man with a bomb is just as bad as a man with a gun. If you think one is different then other then you’re a hypocrite.

The reason for the history lesson above is to prove that Jews are not occupying anyone’s land but their own. The Palestinians also have certain claims as well which I will not dispute. But to say that the Jews are simply occupying someone elses land is somewhat ignorant if you haven't studied history.

Hopefully one day an Israeli State and a Palestinian State can co-exist peacfuly.


p.s. if u take issue with any of the facts or figures from above I urge you to visit your local library wherever you are in the world.

[ajsearls]

If thats the case then maybe America should be handed back to the Indians and we Australian's should hand Australia back to the Aboriginies.
I am all for Israel and Palestine to have thier own states,but the fact is the Palestinians are being screwed majorly.Yes its true there is no excuse for suicide bommings,but they have no national army to fight with.Israel controls all of the borders and most aspects of palestinian life.It seems ok for Israel to have one of the strongest armies in world yet the palestinians have to resort to throwing rocks and strapping explosives to themselves to get their point across.I think its about time the UN steps in and sorts it out fairly for both sides because they will never do it on thier own!!

[retro]

Originally posted by ajsearls
If thats the case then maybe America should be handed back to the Indians and we Australian's should hand Australia back to the Aboriginies.
I am all for Israel and Palestine to have thier own states,but the fact is the Palestinians are being screwed majorly.Yes its true there is no excuse for suicide bommings,but they have no national army to fight with.Israel controls all of the borders and most aspects of palestinian life.It seems ok for Israel to have one of the strongest armies in world yet the palestinians have to resort to throwing rocks and strapping explosives to themselves to get their point across.I think its about time the UN steps in and sorts it out fairly for both sides because they will never do it on thier own!!

Within America, Native Indians are givin there own terrorties called reserves. They govern these lands themselves. They are also given reperations and pay no taxes. If it was the other way around, I highly doubt the Palestinians would be as gracious to the Jews. The Germans, Russians, Persians, Eygptions and Romans were certainly not so gracious when the Jews were living in their lands.

Lack of an army is still no excuse for suicide bombing. Furthermore the PLO has received massive grants over the years. Where did that money go? It never went to create an army ...and certainly never used to buy food. While I do blame Israel for much of the suffering Palestinians....many of their problems are also created by mismanagement and greed of the Palestinian goverment.

Just remember this ... how many places on earth can Islamic Muslims and Christians call home? The answer is several places. How many places can Jews call home? Just one tiny place that barely shows up on a map. Now you are probably saying...what about the Western world, there are plenty of jews living there. While that is true these are still countries ruled by Christians for the most part.

[financeguy]

Originally posted by retro

For a thousand years before 1948, many Jews fled to Europe. As most of you know at one time or another were persecuted. Meanwhile several Jews stayed in the Palestine region. (also at points being persecuted by whomever controlled the region)

Unfortunately, many European countries have a disgraceful history of persecution of the Jews.

[ajsearls]

I agree with what you

Originally posted by retro



Within America, Native Indians are givin there own terrorties called reserves. They govern these lands themselves. They are also given reperations and pay no taxes. If it was the other way around, I highly doubt the Palestinians would be as gracious to the Jews. The Germans, Russians, Persians, Eygptions and Romans were certainly not so gracious when the Jews were living in their lands.

Lack of an army is still no excuse for suicide bombing. Furthermore the PLO has received massive grants over the years. Where did that money go? It never went to create an army ...and certainly never used to buy food. While I do blame Israel for much of the suffering Palestinians....many of their problems are also created by mismanagement and greed of the Palestinian goverment.

Just remember this ... how many places on earth can Islamic Muslims and Christians call home? The answer is several places. How many places can Jews call home? Just one tiny place that barely shows up on a map. Now you are probably saying...what about the Western world, there are plenty of jews living there. While that is true these are still countries ruled by Christians for the most part.

[ajsearls]

I agree with what you are saying.I think both groups have a right to be there,both groups have a right to live in peace,but when one group oppresses another there can be no peace.