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Old 11-29-2007, 09:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
I get very uncomfortable when I see people "spank" their kids in public,
I do too.

Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
why is it somehow more acceptable if it is done in private?
It's not.

But neither of these views conflict with my stance on the issue of what I understand spanking (as opposed to abuse such as that described by Jerome Frazier in the article you attached) to be.
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Old 11-30-2007, 08:12 AM   #42
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What do you understand it to be? A problem arises when some people call things spanking that are not-like using belts and electrical cords. Some parents clearly do feel that "spanking" includes things well beyond a light tap on the bottom, and therefore they justify that by calling it acceptable parental physical discipline aka spanking. In some cases it can also escalate from spanking and still not be acknowledged (by those doing it) to be abuse.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:35 PM   #43
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It shouldn't be too difficult to outlaw spanking with anything other than a hand, I would think.
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Old 11-30-2007, 03:56 PM   #44
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When does spanking with a hand become abuse?
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Old 11-30-2007, 04:09 PM   #45
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The same way verbal discipline can become abuse...when it's done in reactive anger, when it's done with desire to humiliate or frighten the child, when it becomes a substitute for positive reinforcement and low-key pre-emptive discussions about choices and consequences. But these are the things it's difficult if not impossible to police.

ETA: As far as what's appropriate in public vs. private, I do think that when you get fairly serious misbehaviour from a child in a public place--the sort where one parent might feel a rare spanking is called for, or another some fairly extensive verbal discipline, or perhaps grounding or the like--then in any of those cases, that aspect of it is best delayed until you're in private, so as to ensure a calm and focused parent and a calm and focused child. Obviously it's very important to have a ready-at-hand set of quick verbal intervention tactics you've 'got down' and are thus always prepared to apply reasonably calmly--you should never just ignore public misbehaviour and think 'I'll deal with it later'--but that doesn't mean you can't and, where appropriate, shouldn't revisit what happened with the child afterwards.
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Old 12-02-2007, 06:28 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by yolland
The same way verbal discipline can become abuse...when it's done in reactive anger, when it's done with desire to humiliate or frighten the child, when it becomes a substitute for positive reinforcement and low-key pre-emptive discussions about choices and consequences. But these are the things it's difficult if not impossible to police.

ETA: As far as what's appropriate in public vs. private, I do think that when you get fairly serious misbehaviour from a child in a public place--the sort where one parent might feel a rare spanking is called for, or another some fairly extensive verbal discipline, or perhaps grounding or the like--then in any of those cases, that aspect of it is best delayed until you're in private, so as to ensure a calm and focused parent and a calm and focused child. Obviously it's very important to have a ready-at-hand set of quick verbal intervention tactics you've 'got down' and are thus always prepared to apply reasonably calmly--you should never just ignore public misbehaviour and think 'I'll deal with it later'--but that doesn't mean you can't and, where appropriate, shouldn't revisit what happened with the child afterwards.
^Clearly someone is an AWESOME mom!
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Old 12-02-2007, 10:53 AM   #47
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Actually, it would seem that almost everyone on this thread (witht the notable exceptions of Yolland and phillyfan coming to mind)) so far IS saying that there isn't much a distinction between between abuse and spanking.

With apologies to Hinder. . . , a prime example:



Spanking is not the same as "having to hit your kid." Spanking isn't about "you pissed me off this time and now you're gonna get it" kind of problem solving (which is the attitude when any kind of violence is always used to "solve problems"). Spanking isn't about giving in to an "urge to hit."

The sad reality is that many parents who DON'T believe in spanking may end up hitting because they are pissed off and lose it. Anytime a parent is lashing out in anger, that's not spanking, at least as I understand it. Even as a kid, I never confused the very rare, "ritualized" spankings I received from my mom (Yolland's description of the spanking from her dad captures almost perfectly what that was like) with slapping my sister or any other kinds of violence. In fact, one of the three times in my life I was spanked by my mom was for hitting my sister. I never hit my sister again and the message my mom wanted to send--that violence against women was a Serious Wrong has stuck with me for life. Ironic, huh.

I'm wondering if these studies drew any kind of distinction between the "kinds" of spanking that went on?
Yeah, you might have a point, there. I'm seriously biased against spanking because my mother was one of those people who didn't seem to connect the dots between hitting me and the direct results thereof - sneakiness, lying, and an amazing ability to ignore pain. Seriously, it never taught me anything other than people who are bigger than you can beat you up. I ended up hating her for it. I still do. I mean, we seriously got to the point where I would hit her back and we'd start fighting, physically.
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Old 12-03-2007, 02:46 AM   #48
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Yeah, you might have a point, there. I'm seriously biased against spanking because my mother was one of those people who didn't seem to connect the dots between hitting me and the direct results thereof - sneakiness, lying, and an amazing ability to ignore pain. Seriously, it never taught me anything other than people who are bigger than you can beat you up. I ended up hating her for it. I still do. I mean, we seriously got to the point where I would hit her back and we'd start fighting, physically.
I see where you're coming from and I agree with you 100% that such so called "discipline" is both wrong and ineffective.

Anything my mom did could hardly have been compared to "beating some one up" (My dad however was another story. Fortunately for us they split when I was young. But I'll never forget the pervasive sense of fear I lived with when we lived with him. )
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Old 12-03-2007, 05:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Actually, it would seem that almost everyone on this thread (witht the notable exceptions of Yolland and phillyfan coming to mind)) so far IS saying that there isn't much a distinction between between abuse and spanking.

With apologies to Hinder. . . , a prime example:



Spanking is not the same as "having to hit your kid." Spanking isn't about "you pissed me off this time and now you're gonna get it" kind of problem solving (which is the attitude when any kind of violence is always used to "solve problems"). Spanking isn't about giving in to an "urge to hit."

The sad reality is that many parents who DON'T believe in spanking may end up hitting because they are pissed off and lose it. Anytime a parent is lashing out in anger, that's not spanking, at least as I understand it. Even as a kid, I never confused the very rare, "ritualized" spankings I received from my mom (Yolland's description of the spanking from her dad captures almost perfectly what that was like) with slapping my sister or any other kinds of violence. In fact, one of the three times in my life I was spanked by my mom was for hitting my sister. I never hit my sister again and the message my mom wanted to send--that violence against women was a Serious Wrong has stuck with me for life. Ironic, huh.

I'm wondering if these studies drew any kind of distinction between the "kinds" of spanking that went on?
OK, I might have read it wrong.
I was referring to spanking only because for me it was no question that anything going beyond that is inexcusable. I just wanted to say that I think there is a better way of educating your child than spanking in any case.
So I interpreted some of the other posts more in the way of spanking than abuse, but you are right, sometimes it does get mixed.
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