Outdated Sexist Tradition, Or Just A Gesture Of Courtesy And Respect? - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-09-2007, 03:18 PM   #21
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
... and you can share clothes sometimes.


i can't tell you how easy this makes some friday mornings. no need to go home and change.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 03:32 PM   #22
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,739
Local Time: 03:33 PM
Hm... respect:

"May I?"

"No!"

"Great, church is booked for 9 on Sunday, see you there."

Of course it's more of a rhetorical question as nowadays people marry each other because they want so, but still I can see better ways of showing my respect to my in-laws.

Of course, anyone who wants to do that should do it, but no one should expect it, or try to tell anyone that it's a greater sign of respect to do so.

In earlier times you would have asked the father, or even both the father and the mother, here in Germany as well. But I'm not sure when people stopped doing so.
And I think this is to be found in many cultures and countries in the "Western world" as well as in most other parts of the world.

I do know that to celebrate engagements got out of fashion sometime in the 1960's, and now some young couples start to do so again.
__________________

Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 04:12 PM   #23
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
sulawesigirl4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,416
Local Time: 08:33 AM
Sure, I get that it is symbollic. But what I don't like is what it symbollizes. Women as chattel. Then again, I've lived in countries where this is the reality, and the practice is taken literally. I can still remember the night our bus in Mali picked up two frightened young teenagers who were running away from arranged marriages in their villages. Fiance and father had arranged everything; they were bought and sold. So yeah, I don't really need this kind of tradition. I've seen the reality it symbollizes, and it is not pretty.
__________________
"I can't change the world, but I can change the world in me." - Bono

sulawesigirl4 is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 04:33 PM   #24
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,218
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4
Sure, I get that it is symbollic. But what I don't like is what it symbollizes. Women as chattel. Then again, I've lived in countries where this is the reality, and the practice is taken literally. I can still remember the night our bus in Mali picked up two frightened young teenagers who were running away from arranged marriages in their villages. Fiance and father had arranged everything; they were bought and sold. So yeah, I don't really need this kind of tradition. I've seen the reality it symbollizes, and it is not pretty.
That is an interesting point, especially from your perspective. And that's the issue I would have with it, obviously I am not saying that situation is directly comparable to what we are talking about here. And no guy has to spend half a year's salary on a ring, any guy who feels that he does well I would generally question why. Sure they're beautiful and all but maybe they're too symbolic of other things too-for some men and some women.

It's like the whole "giving away" thing too, when are the guys given away?
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 04:45 PM   #25
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 02:33 PM
That's interesting--so in Mali it's typically the fiance, rather than his parents, who deals directly with the fiancee's parents? I suppose that was more or less the traditional practice in the West also. But in India it's typically the parents, on both sides, who traditionally make the arrangements, so it's not unusual for the prospective groom to feel displeased with the prospect, too. That was how it worked in traditional Jewish culture also--the fiance doesn't do the asking; rather one day his parents tell him "We've arranged a match for you" while meanwhile the fiancee's parents are doing the same.

I honestly didn't even realize until now that our "tradition" was for the man to speak to the woman's father first--I always assumed he asked the woman first, so as to confirm her willingness, and only then "asked" the father. But now that I think about it, given the history of women not legally being 'persons' underlying it all, that does make sense. (Hmmm, wasn't there even a scene in Pride and Prejudice about this? It's been 20 years since I read that...)

I agree with MrsS though that really these kinds of things depend so much on the individual people involved, their particular family and relationship dynamics, and all the various unique circumstances that give these things their nuances in practice. It's odd how the understandings of traditional practices mutate over time, but that's human culture and behavior for you.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 04:53 PM   #26
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 2,343
Local Time: 09:33 AM
I don't think it's sexist. Maybe a guy just wants to avoid a Meet The Fockers type relationship with his new parents
Bluer White is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 05:15 PM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,885
Local Time: 08:33 AM
I asked my mother in-law for permission. She had raised her by herself. It was not an easy thing for me to do, but I felt it important to do. My mother in-law would tell me repeatedly while I was dating my wife that her daughters do not need a husband. Her husband had run off with a nun, so I understand her dislike for my gender. I just felt it was important to do out of respect for her. I figure she would tell me no when I asked but she did not. I think she respects me for asking. If she had said no, I am not sure what I would have done.
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 05:20 PM   #28
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,218
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
I asked my mother in-law for permission. She had raised her by herself. It was not an easy thing for me to do, but I felt it important to do. My mother in-law would tell me repeatedly while I was dating my wife that her daughters do not need a husband. Her husband had run off with a nun, so I understand her dislike for my gender. I just felt it was important to do out of respect for her.
I think that's the perfect example of it depending upon the people and circumstances-and I think the circumstances made it so appropriate. Well done.
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-09-2007, 08:41 PM   #29
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Bono's shades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 5,046
Local Time: 08:33 AM
Ugh. This tradition squicks me out. I would defintely NOT want some guy asking my parents' permission to marry me. It's the 21st century and I'm an adult, not a child or a piece of property. I guess I can't see it as just "symbolic" like wearing white. There's lots of other ways to show respect to your prospective parents-in-law. Why not propose and then ask both sets of parents for their blessing rather than "permission"?
Bono's shades is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 09:26 AM   #30
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 69,269
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
And no guy has to spend half a year's salary on a ring, any guy who feels that he does well I would generally question why. Sure they're beautiful and all but maybe they're too symbolic of other things too-for some men and some women.
you're right that no one has to do it, but there certainly is a large amount of pressure to do so. trust me... the average joe does not want to spend a few G's on a ring, but a good majority of them feel pressured into doing so. my best friend has been saving up for a ring for the past couple of months, and his girlfriend is hardly a very superficial person that would demand such a thing, but, well, i dunno... somethings just are what they are.

if there were a decree made by women today that said that guys never had to buy expensive engagement rings again, you wouldn't here a lot of guys complaining, that's for sure.
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 09:33 AM   #31
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,218
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Well personally I want things that money can't buy as far as that's concerned, and I would rather have a Diamonique ring or a claddagh ring or something like that than some expensive ring that a guy felt some sort of social pressure to buy. Something that someone goes into debt to buy because he feels pressure to do so has negative meaning to me. If he wants to buy one at some point when he can afford it that's nice, but not necessary. And I would buy him a gift that had symbolic personal meaning to me and it wouldn't have to cost a fortune. The size of the ring has nothing do do with the size of the heart.
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 09:39 AM   #32
Blue Crack Distributor
 
LarryMullen's POPAngel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: I'll be up with the sun, I'm not coming down...
Posts: 53,698
Local Time: 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by MrsSpringsteen
The size of the ring has nothing do do with the size of the heart.


Like I said before, something more practical and less symbolic would be fantastic. If the symbol comes in a smaller package or at a much later date, so be it. Getting hitched shouldn't be about material things.
LarryMullen's POPAngel is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 09:41 AM   #33
Blue Crack Addict
 
Varitek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: on borderland we run
Posts: 16,861
Local Time: 08:33 AM
If a guy ever asks my parents for permission, they are going to say that he'll have to ask me.
Varitek is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 09:49 AM   #34
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel


If the symbol comes in a smaller package
Or maybe a smaller packaged make to look larger:



just look through the magnifying glass...
BVS is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 10:01 AM   #35
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,218
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Varitek
If a guy ever asks my parents for permission, they are going to say that he'll have to ask me.
I think that's perfect. If it's just a gesture of courtesy and respect these days rather than permission, well both parents should be asked and in a male/female scenario it should be mother and father-or else, at least for me, it gets into that paternalistic ownership type of thing. And if it's just respect well the woman should talk to his parents too because respect in relationships is supposed to be mutual, right?

If a guy can afford it and wants to buy an expensive ring for what I consider to be the right reasons that's nice. If in some alternate universe I married Manny Ramirez well I would expect a fantastic ring, cause that's just pocket change for him. But at a certain point for some people it might be about size in certain ways that have zero to do with the relationship, if you catch my drift
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 10:17 AM   #36
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Bono's shades
Ugh. This tradition squicks me out. I would defintely NOT want some guy asking my parents' permission to marry me. It's the 21st century and I'm an adult, not a child or a piece of property. I guess I can't see it as just "symbolic" like wearing white. There's lots of other ways to show respect to your prospective parents-in-law. Why not propose and then ask both sets of parents for their blessing rather than "permission"?
My ex-wife is as independent as they come, I called her father and asked for their blessing beforehand. She's very close to her father and I knew it would mean a lot to her father. So the night I asked her, in the midst of all the excitement, during dessert she all of a sudden got serious and with concern said, "you asked my father, right?" So it was obviously important to her as well...

I don't think anyone truly asks for permission these days.
BVS is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 10:42 AM   #37
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase
his girlfriend is hardly a very superficial person that would demand such a thing, but, well, i dunno... somethings just are what they are.



according to my straight male friends, there seems to be an unspoken message whenever a woman might pooh-pooh an expensive ring -- "i'm saying it doesn't matter, but if you really loved me, i know you'd find a way to make it happen."
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 10:54 AM   #38
Blue Crack Addict
 
MrsSpringsteen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 28,218
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

according to my straight male friends, there seems to be an unspoken message whenever a woman might pooh-pooh an expensive ring -- "i'm saying it doesn't matter, but if you really loved me, i know you'd find a way to make it happen."
Not for me, that's no sort of love test for me. Love includes realism, and paying the bills. Maybe that's just their interpretation for their own reasons, I don't know. How do they know that?

Trust me, it would have to be one huge ass spectacular ring for me to put up with Manny Ramirez. Seriously though,if I was marrying Manny it would be because I was truly in love with him and I would wear a bubble gum ring if that's what he gave me-with pride. As long as he ran to first on every hit rather than walking
MrsSpringsteen is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 11:14 AM   #39
Blue Crack Distributor
 
LarryMullen's POPAngel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: I'll be up with the sun, I'm not coming down...
Posts: 53,698
Local Time: 08:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




according to my straight male friends, there seems to be an unspoken message whenever a woman might pooh-pooh an expensive ring -- "i'm saying it doesn't matter, but if you really loved me, i know you'd find a way to make it happen."
Now there's an unspoken message I personally would never give.

Maybe those women are of the mindset of "the engagement/wedding has to be a fairytale, which of course has to mean the marriage will be"
LarryMullen's POPAngel is offline  
Old 10-10-2007, 12:14 PM   #40
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 33,720
Local Time: 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by LarryMullen's_POPAngel
Maybe those women are of the mindset of "the engagement/wedding has to be a fairytale, which of course has to mean the marriage will be"


i think these women (of course not all) are in the mindset of precisely that.
__________________

Irvine511 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×