Other religions

[Bonoa]

I'm actually a catholic, but I've had a lot of experiences of the supernatural.My mother is from Indonesia and wether you are Muslim (like my grandmother), Christian, Buddhist or Hindu, everybody believes in "guna guna", the so-called spiritual world. I kinda grew up with it.
Myself, I believe in reincarnation. I can remember certain things, like places and eras I've never been. I think this can be traced back to former lives. (Ican't tell you much about this over the Internet).

For the rest...I STILL HAVEN'T FOUND WHAT I'M LOOKING FOR!!!

 

[whiteflag]

DancingBarefoot,

I can't speak for Catholics, but my grandparents (God rest their souls) were Ukranian Orthodox and they didn't say those lines either.

As a matter of fact, I went to Sunday school at their church once, and being brought up Protestant. I was the only one who said the extra lines!

Very embarrasing.

 

[whiteflag]

Bonoa,

You said that your grandma was an Indonesian Muslim? It turns out that I'm really curious about Asian Muslims. No disrespect to the many orthodox Muslims in that region, but would you say that most Indonesian Muslims are more cultural Muslims than orthodox ones? Or is there really no real difference?

Please ignore me if you don't feel qualified to answer.

 

[KingPin]

Incidentally, to anyone who is saying that all versions of God are the same (Allah, Yahweh, God, etc. etc.) or that all religions are the same... that's simply incorrect.

The Judeo-Christian God is the only God that is both infinite and personal.

The Eastern gods (islam, buddhism, hinduism) are all infinite, but they do not deal with people on a personal level. There is no intimate relationship with humans, no communication on a personal level.

The Western gods (roman, greek, nordic, celtic) were all personal, and came in contact with people, yet were finite, and limited in their capability and power.

So to say that all gods are the same is simply incorrect. And to say that all religions are the same is also false, for how can they be the same when the varying basis of their beliefs are fundamentally and dramatically different.

I thought of other things to say along the way, but Bubba said them more articulately than I could have.

 

[KingPin]

There are other differences in the varying world religions, the most significant being the basic system of redemption, or reconciliation with God.

All (as far as I am aware) religions are based upon man's quest to find and appease God... to become good enough in his eyes. This is often achieved through good actions, or ritualistic behaviour, or following strict guidelines of behaviour, etc. But the bottom line is man, trying to get to God, trying to bridge the gap so we will not suffer the wrath of that God, but instead be in their favor.

Christianity is radically different from this. The basic system of Chrisitanity says that while all man are created in the image of God, and loved immensely by God, we are humans with an inherent selfish nature, a self-loving nature that separates us from God. We can't ever be good enough for God, or become worthy. But since HE loved us so much, he made the motion, and He came to us. He sent His son to earth, who died in our place... bridging that gap between us and God. There's obviously more detail in that, but I won't get into it now.

But the important point is, religion is about man's search for God... and Christianity is about God's search for man. That difference is huge... it is one that many Christians themselves miss. They spend their lives focused on good works, always feeling guilty, not understanding that they can relax and enjoy life, because the Bible that they believe in teaches that God has already done the difficult stuff, and all they have to do is say thank you.

 

[Basstrap]

Surely Kingpin is a man among men

 

[RavenStar]

Just to let you know I will be going away to music camp tomorrow for 10 days. If there is anything anyone has to ask me you will have to wait.

 

[whiteflag]

You the man, Kingpin!

Mind if I add my two cents?

This is the how I would put the Christian concept kingpin is talking about. Man is finite, therefore he cannot bridge that gap between himself and God. From our limited standpoint/perception the divide seems so infinite that it is easy to believe that such a divide could not ever be bridged even by God. Its even easy to believe that we are too lowly to be close to God. But God, who is infinite, can do the impossible. God who All-Powerful is not overwhelmed by the divide. And God who is All-knowing knows not just how bad we are and how much we deserve punishment, he also knows how good we are. For Him it must be much easier than it is for us to believe, that we deserve a place at his "table" and being the Ruler of The Universe, he damn well sure could devise a Holy Means for that to come to pass!


And BTW, kingpin, don't sell yourself short. I don't think Bubba could have said what you said any better. Wow!

 

[Achtung Bubba]

And BTW, kingpin, don't sell yourself short. I don't think Bubba could have said what you said any better. Wow!

Nope, I couldn't.

VERY well said, kingpin.

 

[whiteflag]

Kingpin,

I hope I am not misunderstanding you here but I have disagree with you on one thing only. I agree that many Christians are too uptight and unsure of their own salvation and that belief and gratitude are the main things expected of Christians. But by no means are they all thats expected. I believe that if our faith is truly alive, works will naturally follow and that our faith has no meaning if it helps noone but ourselves. We must find the balance and to do that we must trust in God's system which only works if we do these two things 1) first tend to Faith and allow it to bear its fruit, Works, without rushing things along and 2)Use our works as a measure of the health of our faith knowing that no works or too much reliance on them is a sign of an unhealthy faith.

 

[Basstrap]

Christianity is about God's search for man.

I really liked that!

 

[KingPin]

Whiteflag, I agree with you, I didn't think I said anything contrary in my post. I was simply saying many Christians forget that we as people simply can't earn our way into eternal life, but God has offered to bring us in if we want.

Thanks for the kind words, everyone.

 

[Basstrap]

whenever you return

I have a question for ravenstar whenever she may return.

Mothers are the most loving people in the world, generally. They would do anything for their children and sometimes a lot of what they do is in no way beneficial to them.
They would sacrifice anything fot their children, thats just how unconditional their love is.
You say you love to help people because it makes you feel good or has some benefit for you ,but assuming you ever become a mother or that there are mothers who think like you and who are "satanists" what is the limit of what they do for their children?
I mean, I've heard moving stories of mothers laying down their lives so their children may live.

If you saw your child about to get hit by a bus would you jump and push him/her out of the way?
Since you don't believe in the soul you will just die and thats it. There is absolutley no benefit.

Or since you don't really believe in that unconditional, selfless love would you simply watch as the child's life came to an end?

thank-you for your time
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.
.
end.
.

 

[AM]

But the important point is, religion is about man's search for God... and Christianity is about God's search for man.

how can you say that Christianity is about God?s search for man?????

God created us, and let?s be honest, he doesn?t need us.

For me, any religion, not just Christianity!!!, is about God giving us a hand to find him. Without religion, without the prophets he sends to us, without the books he reveils to us, we were not able to recognize God.

 

[Basstrap]

you didn't interpret kingpins post correctly.
But I'll let him deal with it.

 

[KingPin]

how can you say that Christianity is about God?s search for man?????

God created us, and let?s be honest, he doesn?t need us.

For me, any religion, not just Christianity!!!, is about God giving us a hand to find him. Without religion, without the prophets he sends to us, without the books he reveils to us, we were not able to recognize God.

Sorry, but I think, as Basstrap said, you've grossly misinterpreted me. You're absolutely right, God did create man, and doesn't need anything. He doesn't need us.

He does LOVE us, and WANT us. Badly.

As a result, He made the move to bridge the gap between us. He sent His Son (also God... man's offspring is man, God's offspring is God) to die for us so that through Him, we could re-connect with God. He was coming to get us, to reach us.

You're right, the other religions are about man trying to find God. It's more one-sided. People try to appease God or become worthy. The way to meet God is through actions, rules, penance, etc... in other religions, man has to do all the work and hope it's good enough.

Christianity teaches that God did all the necessary work, and we pretty much just have to say thank-you, and live like you would if you were really grateful. No, God doesn't NEED us. He does love and want us so much that He sent his only Son to die so that we could end up hanging out with Him for ever. And that is unlike any other religion's teaching, as far as I know.

Does that clarify things?

 

[AM]

Christianity teaches that God did all the necessary work, and we pretty much just have to say thank-you, and live like you would if you were really grateful. No, God doesn't NEED us. He does love and want us so much that He sent his only Son to die so that we could end up hanging out with Him for ever. And that is unlike any other religion's teaching, as far as I know.

Does that clarify things?

well it does, thanks. But could you please explain what you mean by saying

"Christianity teaches that God did all the necessary work, and we pretty much just have to say thank-you, and live like you would if you were really grateful. "

As far as I know, Christians have to follow certain rules as well as any other religion. If you?d life a live according to the Bible you can only have sex in a marriage, you have to hold your fast for 40 days every year, you need to get baptised and so on. Those are the rules.

As a Bahai I need to follow certain rules as well. I think that the rules there are for every religion are not very differenent from each other (because all the religions are basically the same -> they origin from the same God and are therefor basically the same).

Or did I misunderstand you again???

 

[Achtung Bubba]

As far as I know, Christians have to follow certain rules as well as any other religion. If you?d life a live according to the Bible you can only have sex in a marriage, you have to hold your fast for 40 days every year, you need to get baptised and so on. Those are the rules.

If I may...

Yes, Christianity has rules, but the difference is this: following the rules won't earn you favor with God.

(The only way to merit being in His presence is to follow the rules perfectly, which no man - save Christ Himself - is able to do.)

The rules are simply how God desires us to express our gratitude for what He has done for us, our love for Him, and our love for each other. Loving him and our fellow man is the "prime directive" of our lives:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. - Matthew 22:37-40.

Obedience in the other rules is the natural extension of your faith in and love for God, and our love for each other. Note the following verses:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. - Galatians 2:16.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. - 1 Corinthians 13:1-3.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. - James 2:14-17.

The three passages, taken together (and, I believe, still in context) say the following things: Faith is absolutely necessary, and love is absolutely necessary; but without works these things are dead.

That seems odd in our relationship with God, but it makes sense in other relationships. I have a girlfriend. If I claimed to love her but that love wasn't blindingly obvious in my actions, she would have good reason to distrust my proclamations of love.

At the same time, I could buy her gifts and open doors and walk her to class with some selfish ulterior motive, for a reason other than love.

The key, with both my girlfriend and my God, is the internal things: love and faith. But that love and faith should be SO great that it should change my entire life as a natural result.

 

[KingPin]

Yes, I'm afraid you have.

Christians have to follow rules in the sense that God laid out in the Bible a way to live your life to its fullest. There are no "rules" in the sense that you have to do something to get into heaven. You don't HAVE to go to church every sunday... but it's recommended to attend sometime, for the sake of growing in your faith, learning about God, talking with others in the same situation as you, etc. You don't HAVE to fast, and you certainly don't have to fast for specified amounts of time at certain times (that's a rule made by man, not by God)... he says that it may help to fast from something so you can focus more on God. You don't HAVE to be baptised... you should be, but it's not like you'll be stopped at the pearly gates if you aren't. There are no rules like "you must do this every day, and say these words before bed, and eat only this kind of food." Jesus came to set people free from that kind of legalistic religious law.

Things like sex before marriage are laid out in the sense that one shouldn't do it. This may seem legalistic, but if you think about the effects that sex outside of a marriage union has had on the world, it's not an outrageous expectation. Emotional trauma, STDs, single-parent households, etc. are all direct results of that sort of sexual activity. The same goes for alcohol. The Bible doesn't say drinking it is wrong, it says don't be a drunk. But that's hardly a crazy request... who wants to be like the town drunk? Nobody. Those "rules" are set in a way that your life will be safe, healthy, happy, and enjoyable. These rules are made in a way that people will get along... moral laws... like don't murder, don't rape, don't lie, don't gossip, etc.

A man asked Jesus what the greatest commandment was. Jesus replied "Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength." And he said the second most important thing is to "Love your neighbor as yourself." This was what Jesus was all about. Those are the real hard and fast rules.

Those are the rules I follow. I try to live a life like Jesus, who didn't spend his time debating homosexuality, or condemning those different from him, or acting holier than thou. He spent all his time hanging out with people, telling them God loved them, and truly caring for them. That should be the life of the Christian... unfortunately, that's a far cry from how many Christians live.

As to your comments about the religions being the same, and originating from the same God, I'm afraid that's pretty far from the truth. I posted on it a bit further up in this thread. Go back and read those 2 posts, and then we can chat about it some more... no point in me typing it twice.

 

[KingPin]

Whoa... the similarities between those posts at times is ridiculous... great minds think alike perhaps?

 

[KingPin]

And personally, I think I've only fasted 3-4 times in my life. Usually it's just not having lunch and dinner and using that time to pray about something that's important at that time. Those times are usually simply my own idea and choice. Or a friend says they feel that a group of us should fast and pray about something, so I would join them.

Only once was it for longer than a day, and that was something where a specific church decided that they wanted to do it as a group for a week, and people were encouraged to take part if they wanted, and could sign up for 3-4 days within that week. So since I was going there fairly regularly at the time, I took part.

Personally I don't agree with things like Lent. I feel that they are based out of a belief that they improve a person's standing with God, or that they make someone better in God's eyes, or are that somebody has to do it in order to be considered Christian. Like Achtung Bubba said, I believe that that sort of thinking is far from the way God wants us to view our relationship with him, so I stay away from it.

I believe that the sort of activity God really cherishes and appreciates are things like sitting for a coffee with a homeless man, or being a friend to the gay kid at school that everyone makes fun of. Those are the rules. Love other people as much as you love yourself... which is a lot.

 

[AM]

So to say that all gods are the same is simply incorrect. And to say that all religions are the same is also false, for how can they be the same when the varying basis of their beliefs are fundamentally and dramatically different.

ok, found your post. Its kinda hard to keep track of all the post in this thread.

before I will explain why all the religions are the same, I have to ask you to look the them slightely different like you?ve done before. Try and see the things that all the religions have in common.

Bah?'u'll?h (the founder of the Bahai faith) explained that God, the Creator, has intervened and will continue to intervene in human history by means of chosen Messengers. These Messengers, Whom Bah?'u'll?h called "Manifestations of God ," are principally the Founders of the major revealed religions, such as Abraham, Moses, Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, Muhammad, and so forth. It is the spirit released by the coming of these Manifestations, together with the influence of Their teachings and the social systems established by Their laws and precepts, that enable humankind to progress in its collective evolution. Simply put: the Manifestations of God are the chief educators of humanity. With regard to the various religious systems that have appeared in human history, Bah?'u'll?h has said:

"These principles and laws, these firmly-established and mighty systems, have proceeded from one Source and are the rays of one Light. That they differ one from another is to be attributed to the varying requirements of the ages in which they were promulgated.
Thus the principle of the unity of religion means that all of the great religious Founders--the Manifestations--have come from God, and that all of the religious systems established by Them are part of a single divine plan directed by God. "

In reality, there is only one religion, the religion of God. This one religion is continually evolving, and each particular religious system represents a stage in the evolution of the whole. The Bah?'? Faith represents the current stage in the evolution of religion.

 

[AM]

this is what I think. I know you don?t have to agree, but I wanted you to know this.

Also personally I think that Christians like to take it the easy way. Sort of like, yes God would like us to do this, but because I?m only human, I can?t do it anyway so I won?t even try. Sort of making your own rules.

After all, this is a thread about Other religions than Christianity. k?

 

[Achtung Bubba]

I agree with AM - to a degree - that religions are similar. As C.S. Lewis noted (in Mere Christianity and other works), they all indicate that we are truly guided by an ABSOLUTE morality. While religions disagree on the number of wives a man can have, they all proscribe faithfulness. While they disagree on whom you should love (family, nation, etc.), they all agree that we should be selfless. In fact, it's hard to even imagine a morality that proscribes cowardice and treachery.

(Even our society that tends to moral relativism never asserts that cowardice is better than bravery; and in a real crisis - be it disaster natural or manmade - our culture drops the pretence and embraces the heroic.)

That said, there are MAJOR differences between religions: some assert dualism, that there's really no such thing as good and bad; others, like Christianity strongly disagree. Some believe in reincarnation, some don't.

And, beyond that, Jesus Christ is VERY different from Abraham, Moses, Mohammad, Buddha, Confucius, and Socrates: He asserted that He is God. If you asked Moses or Buddha, "are you God?" they would scoff at the notion. Christ constantly hinted at it, assumed the privileges of God (by forgiving transgressions against others), and claimed it outright when pressed.

Basically, Jesus Christ is not "just another." He's not just another wise teacher, or just another messenger. He claimed to BE God. To again reference Lewis, he either was a madman, demon-possessed, or TRULY God. He never left "just another" as an option.

Also personally I think that Christians like to take it the easy way. Sort of like, yes God would like us to do this, but because I?m only human, I can?t do it anyway so I won?t even try. Sort of making your own rules.

That may be what some Christians do, but it is NOT Christianity. Let's see just part of the standard that Christ set for us, as delineated in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5-7):

- Don't break any of these commandments, or teach others to break them.
- Don't murder OR hate.
- Don't commit adultery OR lust.
- Be honest in everything you say.
- If a man takes a dollar from you, give him ten.
- Love your enemies.
- Be perfect as your Father is perfect.
- Be discrete in helping others.
- Be secretive in praying, pray genuinely from the heart.
- Forgive others as your Father has forgiven you.
- Don't worry about your daily needs, but focus on God.
- Don't judge others.

If you HONESTLY consider what it means to not hate or lust, to actually love your enemies, you'll see that Christ's standard is impossibly high.

Christ never suggested that he was only kidding, and Paul emphasizes the point that we ARE to follow the law:

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. - Romans 6:1-2, 12-13

(The only way that Christianity could be considered an easy path is that we believe God helps us on that path, that when we pray, it is God the Holy Spirit praying through us to God the Father, with God the Son as the example we are to follow. In one sense, the only thing man does is relinquish the self so that this can occur. That is much easier than the impossible task of trying to do it ourselves. BUT, it's also the only way it can be done.)

It may indeed be the case that certain Christians believe they can slack off, that they can sin without a care because the sin is covered by grace.

But they are wrong.

That said, this thread should be focused on other faiths, but I deem it appropriate for Christians to occasionally explain their faith in greater detail or point out the real contrast between their beliefs and those of others.

 

[RavenStar]

Well I'm back from camp. What's interesting is that this topic was intended for discussions other than Christianity.

 

[Basstrap]

welcome back!!

I have left a question for you somewhere up above.

I tried not to imply anything offensive about you
just very curious, thats all

 

[Basstrap]

Re: whenever you return

I have a question for ravenstar whenever she may return.

Mothers are the most loving people in the world, generally. They would do anything for their children and sometimes a lot of what they do is in no way beneficial to them.
They would sacrifice anything fot their children, thats just how unconditional their love is.
You say you love to help people because it makes you feel good or has some benefit for you ,but assuming you ever become a mother or that there are mothers who think like you and who are "satanists" what is the limit of what they do for their children?
I mean, I've heard moving stories of mothers laying down their lives so their children may live.

If you saw your child about to get hit by a bus would you jump and push him/her out of the way?
Since you don't believe in the soul you will just die and thats it. There is absolutley no benefit.

Or since you don't really believe in that unconditional, selfless love would you simply watch as the child's life came to an end?

thank-you for your time
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end.
.

Thought I'd bring it back up.
Again, I'm not being offensive or anything I just see mothers as the epitimy of self-sacrifice and selfless love and was wondering how that might fit into your religion.

 

[RavenStar]

I would jump infront of the bus to save my child (or any child). One of the satanic rules states "do not harm little children" If I could save a childs life and I didnt I consider that harming them. If I was in a wheelchair or something Then there is not much I could do but I certainly would try.

 

[whiteflag]

How old are you, RavenStar? You mentioned something about camp?

 

[RavenStar]

music camp is for ppl interested in expanding their musical abilities between the grades of 6-OAC. Im 14(15 in a week)