Other religions - Page 8 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-12-2002, 07:18 PM   #141
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
I agree with you

------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
__________________

RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:25 PM   #142
War Child
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: BIG GOB'S BED
Posts: 933
Local Time: 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by UV2001:
Yeah could you please I would be interested to find out more
Could you tell me what your sig means too please

"Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean."
__________________

UV2001 is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:30 PM   #143
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
my sig is in Irish Gaelic. It means
I am short.
I am tall.
I am thin.
I am fat.
I am a woman.


------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:34 PM   #144
War Child
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: BIG GOB'S BED
Posts: 933
Local Time: 11:50 PM



[This message has been edited by UV2001 (edited 05-12-2002).]
UV2001 is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:36 PM   #145
War Child
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: BIG GOB'S BED
Posts: 933
Local Time: 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
my sig is in Irish Gaelic. It means
I am short.
I am tall.
I am thin.
I am fat.
I am a woman.


Cool. It's such a beautiful language. I tried learning it from a book a while back but it's not the best way to learn and I didn't have chance to focus lots of time on it so I gave up. Could you tell me more about satanism? Thanks
UV2001 is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:38 PM   #146
War Child
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: BIG GOB'S BED
Posts: 933
Local Time: 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
my sig is in Irish Gaelic. It means
I am short.
I am tall.
I am thin.
I am fat.
I am a woman.


Cool. It's such a beautiful language. I tried learning it from a book a while back but it's not the best way to learn and I didn't have chance to focus lots of time on it so I gave up. Could you tell me more about satanism? Thanks
UV2001 is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:38 PM   #147
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by UV2001:
I don't get why helping people means you are not putting yourself first. If it makes you happy to see others happy then making them happy is therefore making you happy so it's a selfish act and isn't selfless and purely putting others first. Just how I see it. Someone please tell me if they agree or disagree
If you are doing something that is detrimental to you but good for others, it is selfless, if you are doing it because you want what is best for that person.

Here are some examples:
1)You've been craving a chocolate donut all day. Your coworker brings in a box of Krispy Kreme donuts. You wait until everyone has had their first choice. When it gets down to the last two people, there are only two donuts left - a chocolate and a maple. You don't like maple. But you want that person to have the happiness of choosing his favorite. He chooses the chocolate. You walk away without a donut. Is that a selfish act? No, not even if it happens to make you happy that your coworker got his donut of choice. Your happiness wasn't the reason you chose to let everyone else choose their donuts first. All you cared about was their feelings, not your own. That is selflessness.

2)You and your child are in the park. A gang battle breaks out. You see a gangster point a gun in your child's direction. You jump in front of your child and take the bullet. You were not concerned with your feelings or life whatsoever - just your child's. That is sleflessness.

3)A soldier is captured by the enemy. He is tortured daily for info that would threaten the national security of his country. He refuses to divulge the information, even though he knows how severely he will be beat. Is he doing that "to make himself happy"? No. He's doing it sacrificially - to benefit those who live in his country thousands of miles away.

4)The Son of the Living God sits at his Father's right hand. The people of the earth are dying in their sin, and their own good efforts won't cut teh mustard, because they are imperfect. The Son knows there is only one thing to do to save the children he loves so much. So he leaves his Father's right hand-a place of glory and praises and riches- to be born as a simple baby in a simple manger in a simple little town. His earthly parents are simple and poor. This is nothing like the paradise from which he came. 33 years later, after living a life in which he had no possessions or money, he willingly allows himself to be crucified (the most painful way to die at the time), because he knows that in so doing, he is offering the children he loves the opportunity to join him in paradise. That is the ULTIMATE in selflessness.

I'm going to say this bluntly because I believe it with my whole heart. this whole idea of "placing your needs first all the time" is not only a waste of precious gifts, but is very detrimental to society. It is one of the main reasons our society is in such a crappy condition..because everyone is looking out for number 1.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:39 PM   #148
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
I'm learning it online actually. Here's some more stuff about Satanism:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
I Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

II Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.

III When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

VI Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the person and he cries out to be relieved.

VII Acknowledge the power of magic if you have used it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

VIII Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

IX Do not harm little children.

X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.

XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:42 PM   #149
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
80's,
how can you help others when you can't help yourself?

------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:45 PM   #150
War Child
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: BIG GOB'S BED
Posts: 933
Local Time: 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
I'm learning it online actually. Here's some more stuff about Satanism:

The Eleven Satanic Rules of the Earth
I Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.

II Do not tell your troubles to others unless you are sure that they want to hear them.

III When in another's lair, show him respect or else do not go there.

IV If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

V Do not make sexual advances unless you are given the mating signal.

VI Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the person and he cries out to be relieved.

VII Acknowledge the power of magic if you have used it successfully to obtain your desires. If you deny the power of magic after having called upon it with success, you will lose all you have obtained.

VIII Do not complain about anything to which you need not subject yourself.

IX Do not harm little children.

X Do not kill non-human animals unless attacked or for your food.

XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Those all actually make alot of sense. Not too sure about the destroy him part though. I'm not a very violent person anymore. This is all extrememly interesting though. Thank you
UV2001 is offline  
Old 05-12-2002, 07:57 PM   #151
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
The destroy part doesnt have to be physical. You could give the person a bad day or something.

------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 12:43 AM   #152
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 06:50 PM
I've come across this thread a couple of times while I've been on this extended vacation of mine, and I can no longer ignore my instinct to reply. As a Christian, I MUST address certain aspects of Satanism as presented here:

1. Naturalism.

It seems like Satanism suggests that man is merely another animal, and as such, he should simply act like another animal.

First, how things ARE can never lead to the conclusion of how things SHOULD be. Even if we are merely animals, that doesn't imply that we should act like them.

Second, animal behavior is simply too varied to use as a judge of how we should behave. Some animals actually raise their young, some abandon their young, and some EAT their young.

2. "Doing no harm."

It seems that, at its VERY best, Satanism reminds me of what I've been told Wicca represents, the ideal of "do no harm."

As long as people indulge themselves in a way that doesn't harm certain people it would be pointless to act vengence

Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.


Certainly, "do no harm" seems like a bare minimum one can expect from his fellow man, but is it REALLY the ideal?

Christ certainly didn't think so: he commanded to not only avoid doing harm, but to intentionally do good, to treat others as you would be treated - to "love thy neighbor as thyself."

When asked to define who one's neighbor was, Christ gave the example of the Good Samaritan: a man was mugged, beaten, and left for dead. The first two men that saw him - both community leaders - "did no harm" and left the man alone. The third man, the Samaritan (a half-breed reviled by Jewish leaders), went out of his way to help the man.

Certianly, the two men that passed the injured man weren't responsible for the fact that he was mugged and bleeding to death. But that doesn't seem like enough. It honestly seems like ONLY the Samaritan did the truly RIGHT thing.

RavenStar, it seems like Satanism would criticize the Samaritan for interfering. Do you HONESTLY believe that he was NOT the better man? That the two men who walked on by did the MORE CORRECT thing?

3. The "selfishness" of benevolence.

Certainly, there are times when people help others because it makes them "feel better." But there are also occasions when GENUINE CONCERN motivates helping others, and good feelings is a merely an unintended by-product. And there are ALSO times when people help others DESPITE the fact that they do themselves harm in the process, DESPITE the fact that they don't get "good feelings" for their selfless actions.

Are those who help others because of self-interest ACTUALLY BETTER than those who are more concerned with others?

4. Retaliation.

While Satanism in the best light proscribes the ideal of "doing no harm," at its worst it supports outright retaliation:

Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!

Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!

If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.

When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.


Everyone reading should be clear on this point: this is in COMPLETE opposition to the basic tenets of Christianity. As Christ said (Matthew 5:47-48), "If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."

When you treat others without mercy, you live outside of grace yourself. You should have no expectation for mercy from your peers, and the New Testament implies that God Almighty will not ultimately show mercy to the merciless. (See Matthew 18:23-35 and Mark 11:26.)

Let me put it another way. One of the "Satanic Rules of the Earth" is the following: "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." Reverse that rule: If you are a guest in someone's house and you annoy the host, you should be treated crueely and without mercy.

First, is that what you really want? Second, does that ACTUALLY sound good?

5. The object of worship.

The discussion in this thread points to the fact that Satanism is the exaltation of the self, not the actual worship of the fallen angel.

Its more of a philosophy actually. Im an atheistic satanist. We view satan as a symbol of the carnal and natural side of human nature as noted in the nine satanic statements. We are our own god, creating our own good and evil.

it is a religion of the self. A satanist will always put themselves first. Indulgence is a huge thing in Satanism. The best way to live your life is to live it.


It ultimately doesn't matter WHAT you put first if it's not God. Worship Satan, yourself, your family, it doesn't matter. The first commandment of Christianity is to love God with all your mind, heart, and soul; it's NOT simply abstaining from devil worship.


RavenStar, everyone, I believe this discussion is worthwhile, and it certainly should continue. I just felt it necessary to point out what I think is obvious: Christianity and Satanism are wholy incompatible - regardless of whether the Satanist worships himself or a demon, regardless of how thoroughly we are assured that they do not harm animals or children.

Christianity acknowledges and worships the almighty God, who is both good and great; omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; ever-constant and ever-loving; just and merciful. Satanism does not.

Christianity preaches unselfish, disinterested love, totally against the idea of retaliation and beyond the idea of doing no harm. Satanism does not.

Certainly, Satanism seems more reasonable, easier to accept, and easier to attain.

But Christianity seems BETTER, HIGHER, and closer to the way things SHOULD be. It strikes me as the fullest expression of LOVE.

Or does Satanism deny love, too?
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 01:07 AM   #153
The Fly
 
meriphew's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Seattle USA
Posts: 79
Local Time: 03:50 PM
I am Catholic, but I believe each individual must choose which path is right for them.

_____________________
Post indie electronic
Meriphew
www.meriphew.com
meriphew is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 09:16 AM   #154
War Child
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: BIG GOB'S BED
Posts: 933
Local Time: 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
The destroy part doesnt have to be physical. You could give the person a bad day or something.

Well in that case I couldn't see myself having problems with any of that

If you could give me anymore info I would be really grateful

My email addy is:

tamalesgypsy@aol.com

Thanks again
UV2001 is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 11:03 AM   #155
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
80's,
how can you help others when you can't help yourself?
I'm not saying people shouldn't be concerned about themselves. What I'm saying is that that we shouldn't always put our needs above others.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 11:11 AM   #156
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Achtung Bubba:
I've come across this thread a couple of times while I've been on this extended vacation of mine, and I can no longer ignore my instinct to reply. As a Christian, I MUST address certain aspects of Satanism as presented here:
Welcome back, Bubba.
And might I say, Raven Star, that even though I have disagreed with you on this whole issue, you have not reponded bitterly, or called me names, or even become angry. I respect that very much. Some people in this forum don't like to be diagreed with, and let you know by calling you names.
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 02:04 PM   #157
Refugee
 
Achtung Bubba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: One Nation. Under God.
Posts: 1,513
Local Time: 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:
Welcome back, Bubba.
And might I say, Raven Star, that even though I have disagreed with you on this whole issue, you have not reponded bitterly, or called me names, or even become angry. I respect that very much. Some people in this forum don't like to be diagreed with, and let you know by calling you names.
Thanks, though I will probably only be posting in this thread, and intermittently, as I'm in the midst of finals and about to take a vacation in the real world.


Just to reiterate, my first post was not meant in any ill will - it was an honest effort to present my views and to more fully contrast Christianity and Satanism, because the contrast is so VERY great.

I believe Satanism is, at best, humanism that sets the idea of doing no harm as the ideal, rather than the bare minimum of human behavior. At worst, it reveals moments of hedonism (in the strict sense of the word), selfishness, and the complete denial of the spirit.

It appears that the religion/philosophy never ascends to transcendent love and often descends into diabolical pride. For that reason, I hope those here approach it very thoughtfully - and those that follow it carefully consider what they're doing.


And, to clarify (before anyone accuses me of doing otherwise), I was not being facetious
when I asked whether Satanism denies love.

I note that one of the "Nine Satanic Statements" is the following: Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! The statement does not actually represent love, merely kindness; not to read to much into things, but I believe the omission to be intentional.

I further note what appears to be a denial (or, at the very least, a de-emphasis) of all things spiritual: Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! The command to love universally is a spiritual command, one that does not arise our carnal instincts; such an emphasis on the physical realm would seem to downplay such spiritual commands.

Finally, I recall C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters, a work of instructive fiction in which we see the letters of a beuracratic demon to his nephew. In them, you see the demon Screwtape occasionally raise what Hell finds to be the biggest mystery of all: why "The Enemy" (God, from Hell's perspective) has gone to so much trouble to create, look after, and ultimately redeem the human animals. Screwtape admits that God claims He loves them, but Hell cannot accept that. There MUST be an ulterior motive, because Satan himself cannot see the advantage in love. Satan himself cannot FATHOM love.

With all respect, I see shades of the same attitude in RavenStar's posts, the quotes from the Satanic resources, and Satanic websites I myself have found. There seems to be a complete denial of the possibility that one can or should love another selflessly - that there MUST be a personal advantage in love (good feelings, etc.) or that one simply shouldn't love.

(As an aside, I note that a LOT of the material about Satanism sounds like the Screwtape Letters - the same emphasis of pleasure, pride, and the exaltation of the self. That worries me.)

(I also recall a passage, though I was unable to find it in the few minutes I glanced through the book, that Lewis - through Screwtape - finds that magicians and humanists are on the same road, are quickly removing themselves from "The Enemy" and approaching the kingdom of "The Father Below." That worries me even more.)


So, I believe the question is valid:

Does Satanism teach love? Not just the instinctive emotions of warmth a child feels for his mother, a mother for her child, a woman for her lover - those are all mere emotions; morally neutral, they can be used for good and bent toward evil. No, I'm referring to the COMMAND TO LOVE: charity, doing what's in your neighbor's best interest despite your own concerns.

(Christ commanded us to love our neighbors, but it is almost certain He didn't expect us to have loving feelings for all of them, and certainly not all the time. He told us plainly: clothe the cold, feed the hungry, comfort the lonely, help treat the sick. None of these require emotions of love, but rather require a deliberate act of humility on the part of the human will.)

WELL THEN, does Satanism teach love?

If it doesn't, should it?

And if it doesn't and it SHOULD, should we perhaps look for the truth down other roads?
Achtung Bubba is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 04:44 PM   #158
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
80's, I wouldnt call others names because that gets this discussion nowhere. Somethimes I enjoy dissagreeing(sp?) with ppl, It makes a discussion more interesting. You get less replies like "I agree", people put more thought into their post when they dissagree(sp?).

About love, the way that you described love Satanism doen't teach it. I personally don't understand how someone could help others out of this love you talk about. When I help others, it makes me feel good, that is why I do it. Of course, at first I'll help out a friend for their benefit, but in the end it makes me feel good. If helping someone didn't make me feel good then why do it? The only people I could see myself not enjoying helping are my enemies. They are my enemies for a reason. I donate money to charities all the time. Why? Because I like doing things like that. I do what I like to do. So the answer to your question is no, Satanism doesn't teach love, Satanism teaches you to spend time with your friends, family, and ppl you like. Doing things for enemies wouldnt make sense. In this case, it shouldn't teach love.

------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 04:50 PM   #159
Refugee
 
RavenStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Purgatory
Posts: 1,101
Local Time: 06:50 PM
Also, you talked about being a guest in someones house. satanic rule #3, When in anothers lair, show him respect or else do not go there. I (just like almost everyone else) expects people to follow the same rules as them. If I went to someones lair and disrespected him, he should treat me cruelly and without mercy, for I deserve that after what I did to him. Same the other way too. If he comes into my lair and disrespects me, I will treat him cruelly and without mercy.

------------------
Tá mé íseal.
Tá mé ard.
Tá mé tanaí.
Tá mé ramhar.
Tá mé bean.
RavenStar is offline  
Old 05-13-2002, 04:56 PM   #160
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Hallelujah Here She Comes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3,528
Local Time: 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
If you want I can post some more stuff like the nine satanic sins, the 21 satanic points (released by the Order of The Nine Angels). But only if you want.

Could you post these also, please? Thanks.

__________________

Hallelujah Here She Comes is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×