Other religions

[RavenStar]

you are correct

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T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.

 

[1mitnol]

This thread is pretty incredible I guess I should say right away that I am a Christian and I feel that if the Lord Jesus Christ didn't die for me I would have no reason not to commit any crimes or whatever . I believe that what He did for me should make me feel compassion for other's who can not or will not believe in Him.

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Look I gotta go ,
Yeah I'm running right out of change, There's a lot of things , If I could I'd rearrange .

 

[gvox]

Originally posted by RavenStar:
you are correct

You still didnt answer my question:

Youre aversion to murder has more to do with your wish to not go to jail than on any moral basis??

If thats the case there's a million ways to kill without getting caught, what stops you?

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
You still didnt answer my question:

Youre aversion to murder has more to do with your wish to not go to jail than on any moral basis??

If thats the case there's a million ways to kill without getting caught, what stops you?

Yeah, Gabe, this is kind of what I was trying to get at. If you really hold to the tenets of Satanism put forth here, if someone is in your lair (i'm not totally sure what constitutes a lair) and they annoy you, not only can you treat them without mercy, but you should treat them without mercy. I would say that stopping short of killing someone is probably showing them mercy, and not being as cruel as possible. Why not add another skull to your pyramid? The only reason is that you could be prosecuted by the law. But if you can get away with it, everything in Satanism says go ahead and kill the person for annoying you.
FYI, Gabriel, I don't think Ravenstar believes in an actual Satan, just what he represents in the Bible. Here's what Ravenstar originally said about Satanism:

Im an atheistic satanist. We view satan as a symbol of the carnal and natural side of human nature as noted in the nine satanic statements. We are our own god, creating our own good and evil. We dont harm children. No animal sacrifices. Children and animals are important to satanist because they accept their natural side the most.

 

[gvox]

Its all kinda weird and vaguely saddening, to me.

But then again so was the sentiment expressed that without a belief in Jesus there would be little grounds for not killing one's fellow man.

There are plenty of atheists who wouldnt dream of killing another human, so what stops them? Surely not simply the threat of incarceration??

I don't think we need a religion per se to be good. Its common sense. You want to live. Dont kill others, they want to live too.

Gabriel

 

[Spiral_Staircase]

Originally posted by gabrielvox:
You still didnt answer my question:

Youre aversion to murder has more to do with your wish to not go to jail than on any moral basis??

If thats the case there's a million ways to kill without getting caught, what stops you?

Yeah, Gabe, this is kind of what I was trying to get at. If you really hold to the tenets of Satanism put forth here, if someone is in your lair (i'm not totally sure what constitutes a lair) and they annoy you, not only can you treat them without mercy, but you should treat them without mercy. I would say that stopping short of killing someone is probably showing them mercy, and not being as cruel as possible. Why not add another skull to your pyramid? The only reason is that you could be prosecuted by the law. But if you can get away with it, everything in Satanism says go ahead and kill the person for annoying you.
FYI, Gabriel, I don't think Ravenstar believes in an actual Satan, just what he represents in the Bible. Here's what Ravenstar originally said about Satanism:

Im an atheistic satanist. We view satan as a symbol of the carnal and natural side of human nature as noted in the nine satanic statements. We are our own god, creating our own good and evil. We dont harm children. No animal sacrifices. Children and animals are important to satanist because they accept their natural side the most.

 

[RavenStar]

I wouldn't kill someone because I don't need to kill anyone.

------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.

 

[80sU2isBest]

RavenStar,
I have a question. Do Satanists forgive others?

[This message has been edited by 80sU2isBest (edited 05-15-2002).]

 

[U2Bama]

Originally posted by Spiral_Staircase:
If you really hold to the tenets of Satanism put forth here, if someone is in your lair (i'm not totally sure what constitutes a lair) and they annoy you, not only can you treat them without mercy, but you should treat them without mercy. I would say that stopping short of killing someone is probably showing them mercy, and not being as cruel as possible. Why not add another skull to your pyramid? The only reason is that you could be prosecuted by the law. But if you can get away with it, everything in Satanism says go ahead and kill the person for annoying you.

Perhaps RavenStar is not a fundamentalist Satanist?

 

[babble]

Ravenstar,
I don't mean to offend you but it seems that some of your answers to some quite valid questions are evasive and tell us very little about what Satanists as a whole (or even you yourself) believe. Perhaps the problem in understanding Satanism as a whole is that the Satanic creeds, rules, points, etc. can be interpreted however the individual Satanist chooses to interpret them (i.e. what determines an enemy and to what extent showing no mercy means)? It is a bit confusing.

For instance you say that you would gain nothing from helping an enemy and therefore I gather that you would not help this person, this enemy, even if their life depended upon your aid. Therefore, one naturally wonders what the definition of an enemy would be, someone who's life,according to Satanism, is apparantly not worth saving. Would an enemy be someone who has tried to actually kill you or a friend or family, or could an enemy be someone that you find obnoxious or that has lied to you. You see, enemy is quite an ambiguous word that could be applied to someone who has committed a wide spectrum of offenses.

Then another point that has been brought up is to what extent "no mercy" is applied. No mercy until the death of the offender? And what would that person have to do to offend to the point of being offered no mercy? This term "no mercy" is also quite ambiguous.

Also you pointed out that if the person offends you and you tell them to stop but they continue then you follow rule 11 and "destroy" him/her. By destroy do you mean kill (as that is what usually comes to mind when the word destroy is mentioned) and if so does that mean Satanism advocates murder? You must admit many of these things do sound very controversial. The key seems to be in the interpretation.

Also I might point out that rule 11 appears to have nothing to do with someone offending you in your lair but if someone bothers you out in open territory. And what does it mean by "bother" anyway?

Originally posted by RavenStar:
XI When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.

You see, the Satanist points and rules are choke-full of very ambiguous terms and words that appear to reap very dire consequences and it seems to me to be vital to understand what these things mean. So my question is how do you, Ravenstar, interpret "enemy" and "no mercy" and "destroy" and even "bother"? How do you define these terms according to your religion? Are there official interpretations?

Also I am wondering, and maybe it has been asked before (this thread is so long I can't remember) but do Satanists have meetings/group gatherings or is it just a personal thing?

 

[RavenStar]

babble, I'll have to think about your first question for awhile. But I'll answer your last one. Some Satanist have group meetings, others don't. For me, having group meetings would be difficult, almost every Satanist has thier own interpretation of Satanism. That was Anton LaVey's point when he wrote the Satanic bible. He didb't write it for us to live by, he wrote it more as a starting point. That is one of the main points of Satanism IMO, individualism.

------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Ravenstar,
Do Satanists forgive others?

 

[meegannie]

It sounds like Anton LaVey just read Atlas Shrugged one too many times.

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A song is a beautiful lie

 

[babble]

Ravenstar,
Thank you for answering my last question. I was wondering about that because I don't see how religious meetings/gatherings would really be necessary for Satanists as it is a self-centered religion. Why do some Satanists choose to have religious gatherings?

Well, this has all been quite interesting. I look forward to your further replies.

 

[RavenStar]

U2bama, I'm a modern Satanist
babble, I think some Satanist choose religious gathering for information. If you perform a ritual with someone else, you may learn something, you may not.

------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.

 

[diamond]

Raven-
You cause me a bit of concern.
Just a bit.

Read you.

diamond

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AIM= diamondbruno9

[This message has been edited by diamond (edited 05-16-2002).]

 

[80sU2isBest]

Originally posted by diamond:

Read you.

Why are you using Rono's phrase?

 

[diamond]

Originally posted by 80sU2isBest:

Originally posted by diamond:

Read you.

Why are you using Rono's phrase?

I kiped it.
I have always love Rono and that line.
If he wants it back I will hand it over.
Read you brother 80s.

diamond

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AIM= diamondbruno9

 

[RavenStar]

read you?

------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.

 

[U2Bama]

No, read ME.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Ravenstar,
Do Satanists forgive others?

 

[U2Bama]

Point XXII: Do not answer questions about forgiveness(?)

 

[diamond]

Originally posted by RavenStar:
read you?

Yea.
Verily.

DB9


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AIM= diamondbruno9

 

[RavenStar]

80's, it would depend on what they did.

P.s I've been away all weekend. Thats why I didnt get a chance to respond.

------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.

 

[babble]

Originally posted by RavenStar:
bubba, first of all, keep in mind that the 21 satanic points are from the ONA, which is a fundamentalist satanic group. I am a modern satanist. I do agree with most of the points though just in a different way than other satanist might. Most of modern Satanism is all about symbolism and metephors. I also do not believe in souls so losing something I dont think exists has no effect what so ever on me.

Once again, Ravenstar, could you explain exactly how you interpret these points? What do they mean to you? Which ones do you agree with and which ones do you not agree with? Surely, since you've professed to be a member of this religion, you would have formed some understanding of what they mean to you and therefore could offer some explanation towards the questions I have asked. I am still looking for answers to some of my earlier questions.

 

[RavenStar]

I - Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong

Agree. This one is to the point so I don't have to explain it

II - Test always your strength, for therein lies success

Neutral. Sure, your strengths assures succes, but if you test your weaknesses they will become your strengtha

III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace

Neutral. Victory for me means peace.

IV - Enjoy a short rest, better than a long

Agree. This one is straight forward

V - Come as a reaper, for thus you shall sow

Neutral.

VI - Never love anything so much you cannot see it die

Agree.

VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time

Agree. This isnt just for physical things but for stuff like friendship, etc

VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done

Neutral. I agree with the first part.

IX - And die rather than submit

Agree.

X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art

Disagree.

XI - Learn to raise yourself above yourself so can triumph over all

Agree.

XII - The blood of the living makes good
fertilizer for the seeds of the new

Agree. Let the old teach the new.

XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest

Agree. I don't look at skulls as dead people but more as rocks. The pyramid is a strong shape so it is goos to climb it. Seeing the furthest means succes in life.

XIV - Discard not love but treat it as an imposter, but ever be just

Disagree.

XV - All that is great is built upon sorrow

Disagree.

XVI - Strive not only forward, but upwards for greatness lies in the highest

Agree. Similar to the pyramid one.

XVII - Come as a fresh strong wind that breaks yet also creates

Agree. Break barriers that hold back humanity, create bridges to help yourself and loved ones.

XVIII - Let love of life be a goal but let your highest goal be greatness

Agree.

XIX - Nothing is beautiful except man: but most beautiful of all is woman

AGREE! We females rock.

XX - Regect all illusion and lies, for they hinder the strong

Agree.

XXI - What does not kill, makes stronger

Agree.


I think I missed some of your earlier questions, could you post them again.


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*insert amusing signature here*

 

[U2Bama]

Achtung Bubba:

If you get a chance, email me at U2Bama@u2email.com. Thanks.

~U2Alabama

 

[Achtung Bubba]

I'm on an actual vacation, hence, my lack of replies in this thread. (Also, I tried to answer a couple comments before I left, but the reply was never posted, apparently.)

Three points, all of which now seem fairly random as this thread is moving on to other things...

1. 80s, thanks for you kind words.

2. Bama: nope, not going out west. I'm still attending grad school in Pittsburgh, so I'll probably limit myself to Auburn's home games against LSWho and Georgia.

However, I AM going to the SEC Baseball Tournament in Hoover this week/weekend, and it should be a lot of fun.

3. I wanted to comment about quite a few of the Satanic Points, most of which I strongly disagree with. (I particularly disagree with the emphasis on victory, strength, and pride.) But, I don't have too much time to write, so I will focus on the one point I actually agree with completely:

VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ also agrees with the notion of storing your treasures where they cannot be destroyed.

(I'm without my usual resources, so if somebody asks, I'll post the actual verses another time. Or, if 80s or another Christian can post the verses, I'd greatly appreciate it.)

The difference, I believe, is that the Satanic points presume that it's possible to actually create something permanent in this world. That JUST isn't the case. Monuments of stone and even a name in the annals of history crumble, fade, and disappear. And even if your work lasts (for a while), it does you no good in the grave.

There is but one thing of genuine, eternal permanence that an individual is responsible for: the human soul.

And, to quote Christ again, what does it matter if a man gains EVERYTHING but loses his soul in the process?

(And, by implication, if a man DOES preserve his soul, what does it matter if he loses everything else? You were going to lose everything else, either way.)

 

[RavenStar]

bubba, first of all, keep in mind that the 21 satanic points are from the ONA, which is a fundamentalist satanic group. I am a modern satanist. I do agree with most of the points though just in a different way than other satanist might. Most of modern Satanism is all about symbolism and metephors. I also do not believe in souls so losing something I dont think exists has no effect what so ever on me.

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*insert amusing signature here*

 

[babble]

Thanks Ravenstar for taking the time to answer that. The other questions I asked earlier are in bold below.

Originally posted by babble:


For instance you say that you would gain nothing from helping an enemy and therefore I gather that you would not help this person, this enemy, even if their life depended upon your aid. Therefore, one naturally wonders what the definition of an enemy would be, someone who's life,according to Satanism, is apparantly not worth saving. Would an enemy be someone who has tried to actually kill you or a friend or family, or could an enemy be someone that you find obnoxious or that has lied to you? You see, enemy is quite an ambiguous word that could be applied to someone who has committed a wide spectrum of offenses.

Then another point that has been brought up is to what extent "no mercy" is applied. No mercy until the death of the offender? And what would that person have to do to offend to the point of being offered no mercy? This term "no mercy" is also quite ambiguous.

Also you pointed out that if the person offends you and you tell them to stop but they continue then you follow rule 11 and "destroy" him/her. By destroy do you mean kill (as that is what usually comes to mind when the word destroy is mentioned) and if so does that mean Satanism advocates murder? You must admit many of these things do sound very controversial. The key seems to be in the interpretation.

Also I might point out that rule 11 appears to have nothing to do with someone offending you in your lair but if someone bothers you out in open territory. And what does it mean by "bother" anyway?
You see, the Satanist points and rules are choke-full of very ambiguous terms and words that appear to reap very dire consequences and it seems to me to be vital to understand what these things mean. So my question is how do you, Ravenstar, interpret "enemy" and "no mercy" and "destroy" and even "bother"? How do you define these terms according to your religion? Are there official interpretations?

I have some more questions/comments but I'll post those later since I've asked you so much already. And maybe your answers to some of the above questions will clear up some of the others I have.