Other religions
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Achtung Bubba
Refugee
I've come across this thread a couple of times while I've been on this extended vacation of mine, and I can no longer ignore my instinct to reply. As a Christian, I MUST address certain aspects of Satanism as presented here:
1. Naturalism.
It seems like Satanism suggests that man is merely another animal, and as such, he should simply act like another animal.
First, how things ARE can never lead to the conclusion of how things SHOULD be. Even if we are merely animals, that doesn't imply that we should act like them.
Second, animal behavior is simply too varied to use as a judge of how we should behave. Some animals actually raise their young, some abandon their young, and some EAT their young.
2. "Doing no harm."
It seems that, at its VERY best, Satanism reminds me of what I've been told Wicca represents, the ideal of "do no harm."
As long as people indulge themselves in a way that doesn't harm certain people it would be pointless to act vengence
Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Certainly, "do no harm" seems like a bare minimum one can expect from his fellow man, but is it REALLY the ideal?
Christ certainly didn't think so: he commanded to not only avoid doing harm, but to intentionally do good, to treat others as you would be treated - to "love thy neighbor as thyself."
When asked to define who one's neighbor was, Christ gave the example of the Good Samaritan: a man was mugged, beaten, and left for dead. The first two men that saw him - both community leaders - "did no harm" and left the man alone. The third man, the Samaritan (a half-breed reviled by Jewish leaders), went out of his way to help the man.
Certianly, the two men that passed the injured man weren't responsible for the fact that he was mugged and bleeding to death. But that doesn't seem like enough. It honestly seems like ONLY the Samaritan did the truly RIGHT thing.
RavenStar, it seems like Satanism would criticize the Samaritan for interfering. Do you HONESTLY believe that he was NOT the better man? That the two men who walked on by did the MORE CORRECT thing?
3. The "selfishness" of benevolence.
Certainly, there are times when people help others because it makes them "feel better." But there are also occasions when GENUINE CONCERN motivates helping others, and good feelings is a merely an unintended by-product. And there are ALSO times when people help others DESPITE the fact that they do themselves harm in the process, DESPITE the fact that they don't get "good feelings" for their selfless actions.
Are those who help others because of self-interest ACTUALLY BETTER than those who are more concerned with others?
4. Retaliation.
While Satanism in the best light proscribes the ideal of "doing no harm," at its worst it supports outright retaliation:
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
Everyone reading should be clear on this point: this is in COMPLETE opposition to the basic tenets of Christianity. As Christ said (Matthew 5:47-48), "If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
When you treat others without mercy, you live outside of grace yourself. You should have no expectation for mercy from your peers, and the New Testament implies that God Almighty will not ultimately show mercy to the merciless. (See Matthew 18:23-35 and Mark 11:26.)
Let me put it another way. One of the "Satanic Rules of the Earth" is the following: "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." Reverse that rule: If you are a guest in someone's house and you annoy the host, you should be treated crueely and without mercy.
First, is that what you really want? Second, does that ACTUALLY sound good?
5. The object of worship.
The discussion in this thread points to the fact that Satanism is the exaltation of the self, not the actual worship of the fallen angel.
Its more of a philosophy actually. Im an atheistic satanist. We view satan as a symbol of the carnal and natural side of human nature as noted in the nine satanic statements. We are our own god, creating our own good and evil.
it is a religion of the self. A satanist will always put themselves first. Indulgence is a huge thing in Satanism. The best way to live your life is to live it.
It ultimately doesn't matter WHAT you put first if it's not God. Worship Satan, yourself, your family, it doesn't matter. The first commandment of Christianity is to love God with all your mind, heart, and soul; it's NOT simply abstaining from devil worship.
RavenStar, everyone, I believe this discussion is worthwhile, and it certainly should continue. I just felt it necessary to point out what I think is obvious: Christianity and Satanism are wholy incompatible - regardless of whether the Satanist worships himself or a demon, regardless of how thoroughly we are assured that they do not harm animals or children.
Christianity acknowledges and worships the almighty God, who is both good and great; omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; ever-constant and ever-loving; just and merciful. Satanism does not.
Christianity preaches unselfish, disinterested love, totally against the idea of retaliation and beyond the idea of doing no harm. Satanism does not.
Certainly, Satanism seems more reasonable, easier to accept, and easier to attain.
But Christianity seems BETTER, HIGHER, and closer to the way things SHOULD be. It strikes me as the fullest expression of LOVE.
Or does Satanism deny love, too?
1. Naturalism.
It seems like Satanism suggests that man is merely another animal, and as such, he should simply act like another animal.
First, how things ARE can never lead to the conclusion of how things SHOULD be. Even if we are merely animals, that doesn't imply that we should act like them.
Second, animal behavior is simply too varied to use as a judge of how we should behave. Some animals actually raise their young, some abandon their young, and some EAT their young.
2. "Doing no harm."
It seems that, at its VERY best, Satanism reminds me of what I've been told Wicca represents, the ideal of "do no harm."
As long as people indulge themselves in a way that doesn't harm certain people it would be pointless to act vengence
Do not give opinions or advice unless you are asked.
Certainly, "do no harm" seems like a bare minimum one can expect from his fellow man, but is it REALLY the ideal?
Christ certainly didn't think so: he commanded to not only avoid doing harm, but to intentionally do good, to treat others as you would be treated - to "love thy neighbor as thyself."
When asked to define who one's neighbor was, Christ gave the example of the Good Samaritan: a man was mugged, beaten, and left for dead. The first two men that saw him - both community leaders - "did no harm" and left the man alone. The third man, the Samaritan (a half-breed reviled by Jewish leaders), went out of his way to help the man.
Certianly, the two men that passed the injured man weren't responsible for the fact that he was mugged and bleeding to death. But that doesn't seem like enough. It honestly seems like ONLY the Samaritan did the truly RIGHT thing.
RavenStar, it seems like Satanism would criticize the Samaritan for interfering. Do you HONESTLY believe that he was NOT the better man? That the two men who walked on by did the MORE CORRECT thing?
3. The "selfishness" of benevolence.
Certainly, there are times when people help others because it makes them "feel better." But there are also occasions when GENUINE CONCERN motivates helping others, and good feelings is a merely an unintended by-product. And there are ALSO times when people help others DESPITE the fact that they do themselves harm in the process, DESPITE the fact that they don't get "good feelings" for their selfless actions.
Are those who help others because of self-interest ACTUALLY BETTER than those who are more concerned with others?
4. Retaliation.
While Satanism in the best light proscribes the ideal of "doing no harm," at its worst it supports outright retaliation:
Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates!
Satan represents vengeance, instead of turning the other cheek!
If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
When walking in open territory, bother no one. If someone bothers you, ask him to stop. If he does not stop, destroy him.
Everyone reading should be clear on this point: this is in COMPLETE opposition to the basic tenets of Christianity. As Christ said (Matthew 5:47-48), "If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect."
When you treat others without mercy, you live outside of grace yourself. You should have no expectation for mercy from your peers, and the New Testament implies that God Almighty will not ultimately show mercy to the merciless. (See Matthew 18:23-35 and Mark 11:26.)
Let me put it another way. One of the "Satanic Rules of the Earth" is the following: "If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy." Reverse that rule: If you are a guest in someone's house and you annoy the host, you should be treated crueely and without mercy.
First, is that what you really want? Second, does that ACTUALLY sound good?
5. The object of worship.
The discussion in this thread points to the fact that Satanism is the exaltation of the self, not the actual worship of the fallen angel.
Its more of a philosophy actually. Im an atheistic satanist. We view satan as a symbol of the carnal and natural side of human nature as noted in the nine satanic statements. We are our own god, creating our own good and evil.
it is a religion of the self. A satanist will always put themselves first. Indulgence is a huge thing in Satanism. The best way to live your life is to live it.
It ultimately doesn't matter WHAT you put first if it's not God. Worship Satan, yourself, your family, it doesn't matter. The first commandment of Christianity is to love God with all your mind, heart, and soul; it's NOT simply abstaining from devil worship.
RavenStar, everyone, I believe this discussion is worthwhile, and it certainly should continue. I just felt it necessary to point out what I think is obvious: Christianity and Satanism are wholy incompatible - regardless of whether the Satanist worships himself or a demon, regardless of how thoroughly we are assured that they do not harm animals or children.
Christianity acknowledges and worships the almighty God, who is both good and great; omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent; ever-constant and ever-loving; just and merciful. Satanism does not.
Christianity preaches unselfish, disinterested love, totally against the idea of retaliation and beyond the idea of doing no harm. Satanism does not.
Certainly, Satanism seems more reasonable, easier to accept, and easier to attain.
But Christianity seems BETTER, HIGHER, and closer to the way things SHOULD be. It strikes me as the fullest expression of LOVE.
Or does Satanism deny love, too?
meriphew
The Fly
I am Catholic, but I believe each individual must choose which path is right for them.
_____________________
Post indie electronic
Meriphew
www.meriphew.com
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www.meriphew.com
UV2001
War Child
Well in that case I couldn't see myself having problems with any of that
If you could give me anymore info I would be really grateful
My email addy is:
tamalesgypsy@aol.com
Thanks again
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2000
- Messages
- 4,970
I'm not saying people shouldn't be concerned about themselves. What I'm saying is that that we shouldn't always put our needs above others.
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2000
- Messages
- 4,970
Welcome back, Bubba.
And might I say, Raven Star, that even though I have disagreed with you on this whole issue, you have not reponded bitterly, or called me names, or even become angry. I respect that very much. Some people in this forum don't like to be diagreed with, and let you know by calling you names.
Achtung Bubba
Refugee
Thanks, though I will probably only be posting in this thread, and intermittently, as I'm in the midst of finals and about to take a vacation in the real world.
Just to reiterate, my first post was not meant in any ill will - it was an honest effort to present my views and to more fully contrast Christianity and Satanism, because the contrast is so VERY great.
I believe Satanism is, at best, humanism that sets the idea of doing no harm as the ideal, rather than the bare minimum of human behavior. At worst, it reveals moments of hedonism (in the strict sense of the word), selfishness, and the complete denial of the spirit.
It appears that the religion/philosophy never ascends to transcendent love and often descends into diabolical pride. For that reason, I hope those here approach it very thoughtfully - and those that follow it carefully consider what they're doing.
And, to clarify (before anyone accuses me of doing otherwise), I was not being facetious
when I asked whether Satanism denies love.
I note that one of the "Nine Satanic Statements" is the following: Satan represents kindness to those who deserve it, instead of love wasted on ingrates! The statement does not actually represent love, merely kindness; not to read to much into things, but I believe the omission to be intentional.
I further note what appears to be a denial (or, at the very least, a de-emphasis) of all things spiritual: Satan represents vital existence, instead of spiritual pipe dreams! The command to love universally is a spiritual command, one that does not arise our carnal instincts; such an emphasis on the physical realm would seem to downplay such spiritual commands.
Finally, I recall C.S. Lewis's The Screwtape Letters, a work of instructive fiction in which we see the letters of a beuracratic demon to his nephew. In them, you see the demon Screwtape occasionally raise what Hell finds to be the biggest mystery of all: why "The Enemy" (God, from Hell's perspective) has gone to so much trouble to create, look after, and ultimately redeem the human animals. Screwtape admits that God claims He loves them, but Hell cannot accept that. There MUST be an ulterior motive, because Satan himself cannot see the advantage in love. Satan himself cannot FATHOM love.
With all respect, I see shades of the same attitude in RavenStar's posts, the quotes from the Satanic resources, and Satanic websites I myself have found. There seems to be a complete denial of the possibility that one can or should love another selflessly - that there MUST be a personal advantage in love (good feelings, etc.) or that one simply shouldn't love.
(As an aside, I note that a LOT of the material about Satanism sounds like the Screwtape Letters - the same emphasis of pleasure, pride, and the exaltation of the self. That worries me.)
(I also recall a passage, though I was unable to find it in the few minutes I glanced through the book, that Lewis - through Screwtape - finds that magicians and humanists are on the same road, are quickly removing themselves from "The Enemy" and approaching the kingdom of "The Father Below." That worries me even more.)
So, I believe the question is valid:
Does Satanism teach love? Not just the instinctive emotions of warmth a child feels for his mother, a mother for her child, a woman for her lover - those are all mere emotions; morally neutral, they can be used for good and bent toward evil. No, I'm referring to the COMMAND TO LOVE: charity, doing what's in your neighbor's best interest despite your own concerns.
(Christ commanded us to love our neighbors, but it is almost certain He didn't expect us to have loving feelings for all of them, and certainly not all the time. He told us plainly: clothe the cold, feed the hungry, comfort the lonely, help treat the sick. None of these require emotions of love, but rather require a deliberate act of humility on the part of the human will.)
WELL THEN, does Satanism teach love?
If it doesn't, should it?
And if it doesn't and it SHOULD, should we perhaps look for the truth down other roads?
80's, I wouldnt call others names because that gets this discussion nowhere. Somethimes I enjoy dissagreeing(sp?) with ppl, It makes a discussion more interesting. You get less replies like "I agree", people put more thought into their post when they dissagree(sp?).
About love, the way that you described love Satanism doen't teach it. I personally don't understand how someone could help others out of this love you talk about. When I help others, it makes me feel good, that is why I do it. Of course, at first I'll help out a friend for their benefit, but in the end it makes me feel good. If helping someone didn't make me feel good then why do it? The only people I could see myself not enjoying helping are my enemies. They are my enemies for a reason. I donate money to charities all the time. Why? Because I like doing things like that. I do what I like to do. So the answer to your question is no, Satanism doesn't teach love, Satanism teaches you to spend time with your friends, family, and ppl you like. Doing things for enemies wouldnt make sense. In this case, it shouldn't teach love.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
About love, the way that you described love Satanism doen't teach it. I personally don't understand how someone could help others out of this love you talk about. When I help others, it makes me feel good, that is why I do it. Of course, at first I'll help out a friend for their benefit, but in the end it makes me feel good. If helping someone didn't make me feel good then why do it? The only people I could see myself not enjoying helping are my enemies. They are my enemies for a reason. I donate money to charities all the time. Why? Because I like doing things like that. I do what I like to do. So the answer to your question is no, Satanism doesn't teach love, Satanism teaches you to spend time with your friends, family, and ppl you like. Doing things for enemies wouldnt make sense. In this case, it shouldn't teach love.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
Also, you talked about being a guest in someones house. satanic rule #3, When in anothers lair, show him respect or else do not go there. I (just like almost everyone else) expects people to follow the same rules as them. If I went to someones lair and disrespected him, he should treat me cruelly and without mercy, for I deserve that after what I did to him. Same the other way too. If he comes into my lair and disrespects me, I will treat him cruelly and without mercy.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
Hallelujah Here She Comes
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Could you post these also, please? Thanks.
The Nine Satanic Sins
For years, people have asked Church of Satan representatives, "Well, okay - your philosophy is based on indulgence of human instincts but do you have sins like any other religion?" Our answer has always been "No". But the time has come to amend that response. We have grown steadily over the past 21 years and find that it is appropriate to have some clear guidelines on, not only what we strive for,but also what we work to avoid - what we disapprove of. The difference is where other religions develop sins that people can't avoid, we consider a number of things "sinful" that people could avoid if they worked a little.
STUPIDITY-- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.
PRETENTIOUSNESS-- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.
SOLIPSISM -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.
SELF-DECIET-- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!
HERD CONFORMATY-- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.
LACK OF PERSPECTIVE-- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.
FORGETFULNESS OF PAST ORTHODOXIES -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE PRIDE-- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.
LACK OF AESTHETICS-- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
21 Satanic points
I - Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong
II - Test always your strength, for therein lies success
III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace
IV - Enjoy a short rest, better than a long
V - Come as a reaper, for thus you shall sow
VI - Never love anything so much you cannot see it die
VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time
VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done
IX - And die rather than submit
X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art
XI - Learn to raise yourself above yourself so can triumph over all
XII - The blood of the living makes good fertilizer for the seeds of the new
XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest
XIV - Discard not love but treat it as an imposter, but ever be just
XV - All that is great is built upon sorrow
XVI - Strive not only forward, but upwards for greatness lies in the highest
XVII - Come as a fresh strong wind that breaks yet also creates
XVIII - Let love of life be a goal but let your highest goal be greatness
XIX - Nothing is beautiful except man: but most beautiful of all is woman
XX - regect all illusion and lies, for they hinder the strong
XXI - What does not kill, makes stronger
From: The Black Book of Satan
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
For years, people have asked Church of Satan representatives, "Well, okay - your philosophy is based on indulgence of human instincts but do you have sins like any other religion?" Our answer has always been "No". But the time has come to amend that response. We have grown steadily over the past 21 years and find that it is appropriate to have some clear guidelines on, not only what we strive for,but also what we work to avoid - what we disapprove of. The difference is where other religions develop sins that people can't avoid, we consider a number of things "sinful" that people could avoid if they worked a little.
STUPIDITY-- The top of the list for Satanic Sins. The Cardinal Sin of Satanism. It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful. Ignorance is one thing, but our society thrives increasingly on stupidity. It depends on people going along with whatever they are told. The media promotes a cultivated stupidity as a posture that is not only acceptable but laudable. Satanists must learn to see through the tricks and cannot afford to be stupid.
PRETENTIOUSNESS-- Empty posturing can be most irritating and isn't applying the cardinal rules of Lesser Magic. On equal footing with stupidity for what keeps the money in circulation these days. Everyone's made to feel like a big shot, whether they can come up with the goods or not.
SOLIPSISM -- Can be very dangerous for Satanists. Projecting your reactions, responses and sensibilities onto someone who is probably far less attuned than you are. It is the mistake of expecting people to give you the same consideration, courtesy and respect that you naturally give them. They won't. Instead, Satanists must strive to apply the dictum of "Do unto others as they do unto you." It's work for most of us and requires constant vigilance lest you slip into a comfortable illusion of everyone being like you. As has been said, certain utopias would be ideal in a nation of philosophers, but unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, from a Machiavellian standpoint) we are far from that point.
SELF-DECIET-- It's in the Nine Satanic Statements but deserves to be repeated here. Another cardinal sin. We must not pay homage to any of the sacred cows presented to us, including the roles we are expected to play ourselves. The only time self-deceit should be entered into is when it's fun, and with awareness. But then, it's not self-deceit!
HERD CONFORMATY-- That's obvious from a Satanic stance. It's all right to conform toa person's wishes, if it ultimately benefits you. But only fools follow along with the herd, letting an impersonal entity dictate to you. The key is to choose a master wisely instead of being enslaved by the whims of the many.
LACK OF PERSPECTIVE-- Again, this one can lead to a lot of pain for a Satanist. You must never lose sight of who and what you are, and what a threat you can be, by your very existence. We are making history right now, every day. Always keep the wider historical and social picture in mind. That is an important key to both Lesser and Greater Magic. See the patterns and fit things together as you want the pieces to fall into place. Do not be swayed by herd constraints -- know that you are working on another level entirely from the rest of the world.
FORGETFULNESS OF PAST ORTHODOXIES -- Be aware that this is one of the keys to brainwashing people into accepting something "new" and "different," when in reality it's something that was once widely accepted but is now presented in a new package. We are expected to rave about the genius of the "creator" and forget the original. This makes for a disposable society.
COUNTERPRODUCTIVE PRIDE-- That first word is important. Pride is great up to the point you begin to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The rule of Satanism is: if it works for you, great. When it stops working for you, when you've painted yourself into a corner and the only way out is to say, "I'm sorry, I made a mistake, I wish we could compromise somehow," then do it.
LACK OF AESTHETICS-- This is the physical application of the Balance Factor. Aesthetics is important in Lesser Magic and should be cultivated. It is obvious that no one can collect any money off classical standards of beauty and form most of the time so they are discouraged in a consumer society, but "an eye" for for beauty, for balance, is an essential Satanic tool and must be applied for greatest magical effectiveness. It's not what's supposed to be pleasing -- it's what is. Aesthetics is a personal thing, reflective of one's own nature, but there are universally pleasing and harmonious configurations that should not be denied.
21 Satanic points
I - Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong
II - Test always your strength, for therein lies success
III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace
IV - Enjoy a short rest, better than a long
V - Come as a reaper, for thus you shall sow
VI - Never love anything so much you cannot see it die
VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time
VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done
IX - And die rather than submit
X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art
XI - Learn to raise yourself above yourself so can triumph over all
XII - The blood of the living makes good fertilizer for the seeds of the new
XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest
XIV - Discard not love but treat it as an imposter, but ever be just
XV - All that is great is built upon sorrow
XVI - Strive not only forward, but upwards for greatness lies in the highest
XVII - Come as a fresh strong wind that breaks yet also creates
XVIII - Let love of life be a goal but let your highest goal be greatness
XIX - Nothing is beautiful except man: but most beautiful of all is woman
XX - regect all illusion and lies, for they hinder the strong
XXI - What does not kill, makes stronger
From: The Black Book of Satan
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
babble
The Fly
So in other words if you did not benefit in any way, did not feel good from helping another human being you would not do it, even if that person's life depended on your helping them?
[This message has been edited by babble (edited 05-13-2002).]
babble
The Fly
Well, that doesn't quite answer my question though however I am wondering, who would you consider an enemy? What would someone have to do to become an enemey?
Achtung Bubba
Refugee
Thank you for your thoughtful replies.
It seems to me, actually, that you may help out from a genuine concern for the other person, and the resulting good feelings are unexpected (albeit positive) side-effects. If not, there are, I think, other reasons.
Certainly, there are other selfish motivations, beyond the obvious (some hidden gains by being nice) and the good feelings that generally result from doing good. There's the belief that God will reward you for your good works; while it's true He may bless you, it seems like that's a lesser reason to do good. At the same time, there's the fear that you will be punished for not doing good (karma, what goes around comes around). And there's the guilt that results from not helping people, guilt that stems from the fact that you believe you have a duty to do good.
But all of those are, in my mind, lesser motivations than genuine, selfless, disinterested concern for your neighbor. I'm not saying that doing good for the reasons above is bad, per se; but doing good for TRULY selfless reasons strikes me as the better way.
What are some things that can lead one to believe that one SHOULD help everyone, including one's enemies?
- We're all human. We're all dignified creatures, part of a species capable of reason and beauty. At the very least, we're all living things, all creations - equal in the eyes of a disinterested universe, or equally God's creations.
- We're all good to some degree. Certainly, there are those that are guilty of some of the most heinous acts imaginable, but certain philosophies and religions hold that all of us contain at least SOME goodness, some worthiness of love.
- We're not responsible for the circumstances of our birth. There's an old saying, "There, but by the grace of God, go I." It means that, had things been different, you could very easily be that homeless man on the street, the child with a serious learning disability, or the man convicted of murder. It's not to excuse the behavior of others, but to recognize that we COULD HAVE chosen the same path given the same circumstances.
- We ourselves are not worthy of love. A Christian idea, it suggests that if one REALLY examines one's own life, you'll see it poisoned with acts of sheer selfishness, anger, hatred, and cowardice. And yet we would like to be loved, despite our shortcomings.
- While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. This is at least a belief specific to Christianity, but the crux of it is universal (though certainly not universally accepted). The idea is that GOD LOVES US, not because of what few good acts we're truly responsible for, but DESPITE the terrible acts that can be laid at our feet. God loves us, and He loved us when we were truly unlovable; so too we should love our neighbors, even when they have done nothing to earn that love.
(If Christ's parable is to be believed, we are overwhelmed in our shortcomings, villagers who owe the Heavenly King millions of dollars. Despite that, the King forgave our tremendous debts, so we simply should not begrudge our fellow villagers who owe us, by comparison, five or ten dollars.)
If you search those reasons for personal benefits, an answer to the question, "what's in it for me?" you won't find it. That's the point: love is ultimately not about what good it does to the one who loves, it's about the good it does to the one BEING LOVED. It's a DUTY that I honestly believe we must commit ourselves too.
At the same time, if you accept that we are unlovely - that we have all willingly and deliberately strayed from God and the path He set out for us, that we are truly responsible for our own sins - then you will find no reason God should love us, either.
But if you then ponder the possibility that He loves us despite ourselves, and loves us completely, you'll find yourself standing at the threshold of the most amazing thing man will have EVER encountered: divine grace. And if you walk through the door and accept His grace and forgiveness, you will find yourself transformed.
To be honest, there's another reason why loving only your friends strikes a false note with me. Satanism speaks of "kindness to those who deserve it," and it begs the question, how do you determine worthiness?
One could keep a tally of "good deeds" and "bad deeds." Certainly, that sounds silly, but I've seen people act like they're keeping just such a list. There are husbands, wives, parents, and children who keep mental lists against people they should love the most. And I've even seen list-takers among immature Christians (again, meant literally as those who have accepted Christ but have not grown in Christ, through either being new to Christianity or not honestly committed to it 100%); certainly, I'm guilty of the same crime. So, silly as it is, it seems instructive.
So, what kind of tally should we keep? Should all good and bad acts be treated equally, or should especially evil deeds cost more? How much more?
Should deeds in the far past be worth less as their effects are felt less strongly? Or should they be MORE important as the person is unrepentant about the transgressions of the distant past?
Should bad deeds be erased if the person sincerely apologizes? And should they be redrawn (with extra marks) if the person slides back into the same routine?
And should a person's past and motives be taken into account, even if you have to guess at it?
And at the end of the day, how much is enough to call someone good? 50-50, good acts to bad acts? 60-40? 85-15?
My point is this: if you DON'T keep such a list, aren't you running the risk of loving someone who is unworthy of your love? But if you DO keep a tally, how can you actually love the person involved? How can you honestly love someone if you're so thoroughly scrutinizing their every move?
Universal, selfless love may lead to misery, but only on the part of the one who loves. Taken to its natural conclusion, the road of universal love sometimes leads to the angry prisoner or the contagious leper, and it may even lead to the cross.
But taken to its natural conclusion, love based on worthiness leads to misery for everyone else - because they are either all unworthy or are coldly evaluated on a daily basis.
It seems to me, actually, that you may help out from a genuine concern for the other person, and the resulting good feelings are unexpected (albeit positive) side-effects. If not, there are, I think, other reasons.
Certainly, there are other selfish motivations, beyond the obvious (some hidden gains by being nice) and the good feelings that generally result from doing good. There's the belief that God will reward you for your good works; while it's true He may bless you, it seems like that's a lesser reason to do good. At the same time, there's the fear that you will be punished for not doing good (karma, what goes around comes around). And there's the guilt that results from not helping people, guilt that stems from the fact that you believe you have a duty to do good.
But all of those are, in my mind, lesser motivations than genuine, selfless, disinterested concern for your neighbor. I'm not saying that doing good for the reasons above is bad, per se; but doing good for TRULY selfless reasons strikes me as the better way.
What are some things that can lead one to believe that one SHOULD help everyone, including one's enemies?
- We're all human. We're all dignified creatures, part of a species capable of reason and beauty. At the very least, we're all living things, all creations - equal in the eyes of a disinterested universe, or equally God's creations.
- We're all good to some degree. Certainly, there are those that are guilty of some of the most heinous acts imaginable, but certain philosophies and religions hold that all of us contain at least SOME goodness, some worthiness of love.
- We're not responsible for the circumstances of our birth. There's an old saying, "There, but by the grace of God, go I." It means that, had things been different, you could very easily be that homeless man on the street, the child with a serious learning disability, or the man convicted of murder. It's not to excuse the behavior of others, but to recognize that we COULD HAVE chosen the same path given the same circumstances.
- We ourselves are not worthy of love. A Christian idea, it suggests that if one REALLY examines one's own life, you'll see it poisoned with acts of sheer selfishness, anger, hatred, and cowardice. And yet we would like to be loved, despite our shortcomings.
- While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. This is at least a belief specific to Christianity, but the crux of it is universal (though certainly not universally accepted). The idea is that GOD LOVES US, not because of what few good acts we're truly responsible for, but DESPITE the terrible acts that can be laid at our feet. God loves us, and He loved us when we were truly unlovable; so too we should love our neighbors, even when they have done nothing to earn that love.
(If Christ's parable is to be believed, we are overwhelmed in our shortcomings, villagers who owe the Heavenly King millions of dollars. Despite that, the King forgave our tremendous debts, so we simply should not begrudge our fellow villagers who owe us, by comparison, five or ten dollars.)
If you search those reasons for personal benefits, an answer to the question, "what's in it for me?" you won't find it. That's the point: love is ultimately not about what good it does to the one who loves, it's about the good it does to the one BEING LOVED. It's a DUTY that I honestly believe we must commit ourselves too.
At the same time, if you accept that we are unlovely - that we have all willingly and deliberately strayed from God and the path He set out for us, that we are truly responsible for our own sins - then you will find no reason God should love us, either.
But if you then ponder the possibility that He loves us despite ourselves, and loves us completely, you'll find yourself standing at the threshold of the most amazing thing man will have EVER encountered: divine grace. And if you walk through the door and accept His grace and forgiveness, you will find yourself transformed.
To be honest, there's another reason why loving only your friends strikes a false note with me. Satanism speaks of "kindness to those who deserve it," and it begs the question, how do you determine worthiness?
One could keep a tally of "good deeds" and "bad deeds." Certainly, that sounds silly, but I've seen people act like they're keeping just such a list. There are husbands, wives, parents, and children who keep mental lists against people they should love the most. And I've even seen list-takers among immature Christians (again, meant literally as those who have accepted Christ but have not grown in Christ, through either being new to Christianity or not honestly committed to it 100%); certainly, I'm guilty of the same crime. So, silly as it is, it seems instructive.
So, what kind of tally should we keep? Should all good and bad acts be treated equally, or should especially evil deeds cost more? How much more?
Should deeds in the far past be worth less as their effects are felt less strongly? Or should they be MORE important as the person is unrepentant about the transgressions of the distant past?
Should bad deeds be erased if the person sincerely apologizes? And should they be redrawn (with extra marks) if the person slides back into the same routine?
And should a person's past and motives be taken into account, even if you have to guess at it?
And at the end of the day, how much is enough to call someone good? 50-50, good acts to bad acts? 60-40? 85-15?
My point is this: if you DON'T keep such a list, aren't you running the risk of loving someone who is unworthy of your love? But if you DO keep a tally, how can you actually love the person involved? How can you honestly love someone if you're so thoroughly scrutinizing their every move?
Universal, selfless love may lead to misery, but only on the part of the one who loves. Taken to its natural conclusion, the road of universal love sometimes leads to the angry prisoner or the contagious leper, and it may even lead to the cross.
But taken to its natural conclusion, love based on worthiness leads to misery for everyone else - because they are either all unworthy or are coldly evaluated on a daily basis.
Achtung Bubba
Refugee
There are two problems here, I think: one is that the old adage may apply, that two wrongs do not make things right. Something could be said for justice, but the rule seems to be based on satisfying the need for vengeance. Justice - having the unfriendly guest fix what went wrong, removing him from your house, or not inviting him back - doesn't seem to be the main concern.
But there's a more disturbing problem. The rule, as posted, is this: If a guest in your lair annoys you, treat him cruelly and without mercy.
What if he annoys you unintentionally? (Of course, that leads to the bigger problem, how do you determine intent?)
Or what if you annoyed YOUR host unintentionally? Should he then treat you cruelly and mercilessly?
And even if you can somehow account for intent, what if you were intentionally rude for external reasons (you had a bad day), or as simply an unexpected break from your normal behavior? Suppose you were rude because you felt like it, though you may regret the action later.
Is there no room for mercy?
The 21 Satanic Points would seem to disagree with me: Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong.
But aren't we ALL weak?
Is there one of us who can force existence to grant us another day of life past the day our physical bodies give out? Is there any of us who can do things over, who can take back words and deeds we'd like to take back? Is there any of us immune from the injuries of disease, the mispoken word, and our own selfishness and misjudgment?
I would say, certainly not. So, let mercy fall like rain, because mercy is the only way we can live.
Again, thanks for your replies, and pardon me if I decide to comment on more of the 21 points; some of them deserve my attention.
Bubba
Before you treat them cruelly and without mercy you should ask them to stop what they are doing. rule #11 says to ask him to stop, then, if he doesn't, destroy him.
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T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
Achtung Bubba
Refugee
Even so, destroying someone for annoying you - even if you ask him to stop, and even if destroying him is little more than causing him to have a bad day - doesn't strike me as a pursuit of justice, but merely quenching revenge.
"Eye for an eye" has ruled this world for millenia - broken only intermittently by an honest attempt to "love thy neighbor" - and I doubt anybody would say the world is better off for it.
"Eye for an eye" has ruled this world for millenia - broken only intermittently by an honest attempt to "love thy neighbor" - and I doubt anybody would say the world is better off for it.
U2Bama
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Bubba:
Going out west for the Auburn-Southern Cal game Labor Day?
~U2Alabama
Going out west for the Auburn-Southern Cal game Labor Day?
~U2Alabama
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2000
- Messages
- 4,970
Bubba, thank you for your witness this day. I am not lying to you when I say this: As I read your above posts, I said to myself "God is giving Achtung Bubba the perfect words". It is good that you let the Holy Spirit speak through you rather than using your own earthly wisdom. That is what we should all do in every situation.
Your brother in Christ,
Mike
Your brother in Christ,
Mike
Desert Rose
The Fly
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2000
- Messages
- 143
Too Much Asleep
Babyface
Seems like the Palestinians and Israelis have been reading The Black Book:
[This message has been edited by Too Much Asleep (edited 05-14-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Too Much Asleep (edited 05-14-2002).]
Spiral_Staircase
War Child
Ravenstar, this has been very interesting stuff to read. I've a question for you, and it's meant as a sincere question, though it might seem rhetorical. It's obvious to me that you're working from a totally different paradigm than I, so I don't think I should assume much about what you believe. Here's the question. If a guest in your lair annoyed you, would consider killing him/her if you thought you had a good chance of not being caught?
meegannie
Blue Crack Addict
I never realized how incredibly similar Satanism is to Objectivism (a la Ayn Rand). I knew the basic gist, but have never seen the points enumerated. Did Satanism evolve out of Objectivism, or are the two unrelated?
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"The line on the screen is broken. What once was asleep has woken." - I Am Kloot, "To You"
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"The line on the screen is broken. What once was asleep has woken." - I Am Kloot, "To You"
Spiral,
If the guest annoys me I wouldnt kill them. They would have to do worse than that to want me to kill them. There is no way I could get away for murder. I dont want to go to jail, so I dont break laws.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
If the guest annoys me I wouldnt kill them. They would have to do worse than that to want me to kill them. There is no way I could get away for murder. I dont want to go to jail, so I dont break laws.
------------------
T? m? ?seal.
T? m? ard.
T? m? tana?.
T? m? ramhar.
T? m? bean.
UV2001
War Child
This is all very interesting. Thank you Raven Star
gvox
Ghost of Love
RavenStar while I completely disagree with most of the tenets of Satanism as you have outlined them, for some reason this most recent comment troubles me most.
Your motivation or reason for not committing a murder would be possible jail time? Then I would venture to say that your 'religion' is failing you, as far as I can see the main reasons why you should not kill anyone is because it is morally wrong, not because you might be jailed for it.
Another might say its because God says not to, but I'm not sure if I remember if you believe in God. But if you do, theres another good reason. But if you don't (believe in God), then who made Satan? Satan is a biblically created entity, so if you believe in Satan, don't you have to at least acknowledge the presence of God? As far as I know not even Satan himself would deny the existence of his Creator...
Gabriel
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"...well the God I believe in isn't short of cash, mister!"
BTBS, Rattle and Hum
UV2001
War Child
From what I have understood Raven Star believes in neither God nor Satan. If I am wrong please correct me.
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