Other religions

[whiteflag]

Arun and RavenStar

You surprise me.

You mean my limited experience with people of all sorts of background and religious affiliations whom I have had intimate friendships with? You mean my limited experience of living in one of the most diverse nations in the world and being naturally curious and eager to get inside other people's heads?

You seem to assume that I have never once looked beyond my own nose about anything that I believe in since I was born. No matter how many times I tell what I have been through in my life if I express a strong opinion as a Christian then I am automatically limited and narrow minded. Is that it?

How is it that you know me and what I am about? How quick you are to find some little quibble so you can have an excuse to write off everything I have said.

I did not believe in God at all to start with. Then I thought that all religions taught the same exact things. I was a liberal, a politically-correct new-age poster child at one time. I did not set out in life to make the world fit into my biases.

It was Christians who convinced me to be a Christian by their greater degree of joy compared to my other friends. I didn't become a Christian and then conclude that Christians were just naturally happier because I am one of them.

And why is it that to say something is different or something is more is the same as saying that everything else is worthless? Did I say that no one but Christians are happy? I know my friends are happy from having spent time with them over the years. I happen to think that people of other religions are very happy and content. I know they are as happy as humans could be on their own. I used to think myself that I couldn't possibly be any happier or more content with my life and my beliefs.

But there is more happiness than even that. And its available not just to some perfect holy people, its available to all. It is truly abundant, overflowing pouring down on everyone who has ever lived and its still not exhausted. Its free and without condition except that we must be instructed in how to recognize it.

It is what Hindu holy men have renounced everything for but we don't have to renounce anything for it but our determination to do everything our own way.

It is the paradise that other religions are told they must wait for but a portion of it is here and now.

It is being with God now not later. When He touches us just a little, we must sing for joy even in our darkest hour.

This is what Christianity teaches us about God.

Christianity also teaches that God never meant for finding Him and being with Him to be as hard as we make it out to be. Finding God is easy. He comes to us and we have no doubt about it. And the reason why he makes it so easy is because we have more important things to do in this life. Our job is to ease the suffering of other people physically, emotionally, spiritually. This job can't wait until we have attained the perfect way of life and its too big a job for us to be worried about anything else. It is more than we can handle ourselves but we also must be involved. And so God in his Mercy lends us His own hand to get us through.

We all convince ourselves that we could never be as brave as our heroes. That we could never do what they do. But we can when God shares Himself with us. Everyone of us is quite literally a MLK or a Mother Teresa or a Gandhi. We are all of us superheroes in waiting if we unite ourselves with God the way he intended. And when we are united with God in the way the Hindu holy men dream of, but we are also energized into action to help others no matter how scary that might be, then this is the happiness that I am talking about Christians having. Most people on this earth don't have it. Because if they did, it wouldn't be the place that it is.

So yes, in my wide experience, Christians are happier because all of us are taught clearly, simply easily how to be happiest of all people.

And there is pretty much just one step to being as happy as we are. That is, believe that Jesus is truly the Christ whose teachings are therefore imperative and eternal. All the other steps to happiness then flow easily from that first one.

Renouncing your culture and politics and becoming a white, male American Pentacostal is not necessary to become a follower of Christ. Becoming a faceless conformist is not necessary. None of what you think you would have to sacrifice is neccesary to sacrifice except for your grudges and your pride. Because Jesus is the Christ, he is bigger than any religion. He is even bigger than Christianity, the religion closest to Him. None of the Christian practices or observances that you happen to disagree with are as important as accepting Him and following Him. Not the Trinity, not original sin, not communion, not going to church, none of them. It does not matter if you are a Catholic or a Baptist. These things are not what our faith depends on (though they have been known to very helpful to us) Our faith depends on the reality of Christ and on us following His unique example into a gentle but fearless service of mankind.

In the end the greatest happiness can only come from uniting with God Himself in order to devote ourselves to giving others happiness and relief. That is what being a Christian is all about.

 

[V Nura]

what do you define as accepting...and following christ??


I define it as the following


Obeying jesus's two commandments


and understanding that your life is meant for something greater...namely god, and not to fulfilling of our own desires.


and I completely agree with your statement of christ being bigger than religion.

 

[RavenStar]

May I ask what jesus' 2 commandments are?

 

[sulawesigirl4]

May I ask what jesus' 2 commandments are?

I believe they would be "love the lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind" and "love your neighbor as yourself".

i might be wrong tho.

 

[Achtung Bubba]

Right you are, Sula.

In response to the question, "What is the greatest commandment?":

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. - Matthew 22:37-40.

 

[RavenStar]

Thanks

 

[whiteflag]

Arun V,

Sorry its taken me so long to get back to you but I really havent had the time to make a thoughtful reply to your question until now. I am also really glad that you said something because I was worried that I had killed this thread for sure with my last post! I seem to have a knack for that.

what do you define as accepting...and following christ??


I define it as the following


Obeying jesus's two commandments


and understanding that your life is meant for something greater...namely god, and not to fulfilling of our own desires.

I would have to very much disagree with your definition. Yes the commandments you cited are very important but they are said to be the most important, not the ONLY important ones. As you can see from the quote Bubba provided, Jesus is being asked which is the greatest commandment in The Jewish Law. What He says is that the Law hangs on these two commandments. He does not say to follow just those two and you'll be ok.

The Gospels relate that Jesus actually tied these two commandments into a much more radical and specific body of teaching which, it turns out, is nothing short of an entire plan of action for implementing these commandments in the fullest sense possible. And so if we are to truly follow Him we must take him at his word and follow all of His directions and believe what he taught us to believe, and not pick out the stuff that we decide that we like. Otherwise, these wonderful commandments end up being reduced to mere sentiment on the order of something like "be a good boy, mind your Parent and play nice with others. "

In other words The Gospels must be accepted in their entirety because they are the most specific guide we have for obeying the commandments Jesus thought were the most important in the way He felt was best. As such, The Gospels in their entirety must be classified as part of the Way of Christ and not lumped in with the Christian religion.

In fact I believe it is vital that the Gospel accounts of Jesus be considered as being just as much above religion as Jesus Himself is.

But I'll explain this in more detail tommorrow. Right now I gotta go to bed. I have to be up early tomorrow.

 

[KingPin]

I would have to very much disagree with your definition. Yes the commandments you cited are very important but they are said to be the most important, not the ONLY important ones. As you can see from the quote Bubba provided, Jesus is being asked which is the greatest commandment in The Jewish Law. What He says is that the Law hangs on these two commandments. He does not say to follow just those two and you'll be ok.

I side with her. Everything Jesus said can be boiled down to those two commandments.

In fact, I think that you can be "ok" even without doing those things. The only time Jesus told someone they would go to heaven (or paradise) was to a man next to him on another cross... and he followed not set of rules or instructions... he simply looked over and said "remember me when you enter into your kingdom."

And that was the simple faith, belief, trust, and humility that God is looking for in us.

 

[RavenStar]

I think I need to link this topic to my sig so I don't have to explain every detail about Satanism again in some other post.

 

[RavenStar]

LMAO
I'm on this other board and they got SO offended when I even mention Satanism. If only they could be as open-minded as people on here and actually learn about something before it offends them.

 

[pinkfloyd]

God ...higher than any beautiful words , people are not smart ( not yet if we get lucky after 1000-2000 years maybe ) enough , and religion is a positive movement , remember one of the first and main sins from Buddism is to disrespect other religions .

 

[RavenStar]

I'm not buddist. The first sin in my religion is stupididty, followed by pretentiousness, solipsism, self-deceit, herd conformity, lack of perspective, forgetfulness of past orthodoxes, counterproductive pride, and lack of aesthetices.

 

[KingPin]

the first, and technically only sin, in my religion (though I hesitate to call it that) is quity simply Pride, or Selfishness.

 

[RavenStar]

And what religion might that be? (sry if you have mentioned it)

 

[KingPin]

That would be Christianity.

The only real sin is Pride, or putting yourself first, before others. It's the idea that you don't need God. Or the attitude that "I'm good enough to do what I want." It's always looking out for number one, without regard for the feeling of other people. Virtually every "sin", or crime, or personality trait that we dislike, stems from this.

And I also believe that "sin" in the noun sense, does not really exist. God does not see us with a tally of different sins that we have on our record. Sin exists in the verb sense... and it is simply living in a manner that goes against those two basic rules of Christianity we discussed earlier.

 

[whiteflag]

And I also believe that "sin" in the noun sense, does not really exist. God does not see us with a tally of different sins that we have on our record. Sin exists in the verb sense... and it is simply living in a manner that goes against those two basic rules of Christianity we discussed earlier.

For once I will have to disagree with you there Kingpin. Of course you are perfectly entitled to think this way but I think it may be a serious error.

Mind if I proceed?

 

[RavenStar]

I don't mind.

 

[KingPin]

For once I will have to disagree with you there Kingpin. Of course you are perfectly entitled to think this way but I think it may be a serious error.

Mind if I proceed?

1. I don't think it's the first time you've disagreed with me... I know it's not the first I've disagreed with something you've said.

2. I may have stated my opinion poorly, so give the benefit of the doubt. As we are conversing on a message board, and not in person, it's easy to misinterpret. I'm willing to bet that if you believe the Bible to be true, then you agree with me.

3. I do believe that sin, at one point, was a noun... a blemish, a mark on our spiritual record. The reason that I believe this is no longer the case is that it says that when Jesus was killed, he took all the sins of the world (past, present, and future), and in fact <I>became</I> sin. If this is the case, when Jesus died and rose again, sin was no longer an issue. God is now concerned about how we as people react to this gift, to this love, and whether or not we love Him, and love His children.

4. I didn't mean to get into this, I just wanted to say that I believe Christianity is quite simple. Only two rules to live by, which apply to every aspect of our life. Only one thing to look out for, and ensure it doesn't creep into the different areas of our life

 

[whiteflag]

3. I do believe that sin, at one point, was a noun... a blemish, a mark on our spiritual record. The reason that I believe this is no longer the case is that it says that when Jesus was killed, he took all the sins of the world (past, present, and future), and in fact <I>became</I> sin. If this is the case, when Jesus died and rose again, sin was no longer an issue. God is now concerned about how we as people react to this gift, to this love, and whether or not we love Him, and love His children.

Well then we do disagree.

I have only recently realized that sin is still a noun in a very real way. It is active in the world and most of all it acts upon the souls of those most vulnerable to it, twisting them out of shape. These folks in turn set about intentionally or unintentionally warping other people, especially their children or young people around them.

For me sin is like a progressive, infectious fatal disease. Once a person is exposed it will inevitably progress from an asymptomatic phase into multiple symtoms which are increasingly severe. As the symptoms accumulate they begin to wear down the soul's resistance to other sins in a kind of viscious cycle.

Sin enters our life subtly, but in the end it has very real and lasting effects. Much like the difference of one degree at the start of a journey makes a huge difference in where you eventually end up.

This for me explains the UBL's of the world, who started out like all the rest of us (although most thank God don't end up near as bad). The only way out of the viscious cycle then is to fall on the Grace of Jesus. When we believe in Jesus and recieve the Spirit into our hearts we become sensitive to sin and fully aware of its reality and its devastating effects. When the Spirit truly comes to reside in us, our footsteps are adhere to the path more easily through its power in us. (This of course does not mean that we become perfect)

For me the traditional Christian teaching about Original Sin is particularly useful to understand what I am saying. Sin is still in operation, a reality. Like a disease, sin takes souls which are born healthy and warps them through its action upon them in the physical world (I DO NOT believe in the Catholic teaching that babies are born with a load of sin on them) Therefore it takes more than just saying sorry to heal the damage. A divine healing must take place to stop the cycle of sin in ourselves and in the world and this can only happen through the activity of The Holy Spirit. Only by recieving the Spirit can our souls be unwarped so that we can truly see with unimpaired, though still finite, judgement.

Without the traditional concept of the reality of sin and its deadly corruption of our souls, we as people who believe in Jesus end up with nothing to say to religions which teach that no great sacrifice was required for our release from sin. Many religions teach that it is not neccesary to believe in Jesus since all we have to do is be really sorry for our sins in order to be given a clean slate. This in turn treats the awful consequences of sin as if it were basically nothing, a personal matter between you and God with no lasting effects. For these religions sin begins and ends with the individual. It does not, as Christianity teaches, have continuing serious repercussions like ripples in water which quickly reach people we never intended to harm. Therefore according to the thinking of some other religions, sin is not a great crime when there is no proof that innocent people were harmed. Thus no sacrifice, no Savior was necessary, thus there is no need to follow Jesus or believe that he is the Son of God. In their thinking only law is needed to deal with actual crimes and only sorry is needed for petty sins.

But of course we all know that no man is an island. We all know that even a white lie obeys the law of cause and effect. In other words it continues to have ramifications well beyong the original event unless it is stopped cold. We all know that a small sin can lead to a huge mess which just keeps growing. These consequences dont go away when we are sorry to God that we lied. Therefore in more ways than one, the much stronger Christian concept of sin is not only necessary, it also makes perfect sense.

I realize I probably rambled quite a bit here. Please don't believe that I am making any assumptions about you. I don't think we are that far apart but the difference is nonetheless significant enough to mention. I have just learned the hard way in my own personal walk, that sin the noun is very very real. I used to be very warped. I can see that now. But now I have been healed, now I truly see. I'm still not perfect but I wouldn't be the way i am at all if I didn't first believe that sin is still very real. This led me to believe that the sacrifice of Jesus was truly necessary which led me to accept Him as my Lord which led to my rebirth through The Spirit.

I am sure you believe that sacrifice was necessary too, but we seem to have come to very different conclusions about what happened to sin on that day. For me its still here but it has ceased to have the same effect on Christians as it does on those who think sin isn't that serious. For you it seems that you believe that it died that day and now it can't harm anyone even non-Christians.

The good news is that since we are both Christians who have been reborn through our belief in Jesus, we can have these differing opinions in all good conscience. We are free to disagree to a fairly large extent because we live in the all important state of Grace which comes through true belief in the Jesus of Christianity.

 

[KingPin]

Whiteflag, you seem to be talking about sin as a lifestyle. Sinning. This is the verb sense of which I am talking.

When you talk about sin tempting people, or grabbing people, or leading to other things, you're talking about living in a contrary manner to what God wants of you. Actions, doing, etc. Sin in that context will always exist as we will always disobey God. I don't understand why you are personifying sin, as if it has a mind, or an intent. I refuse to give sin that kind of importance or atrribute that kind of power to it. If sin can be a noun, then it is our disobedience, or unwillingness to follow the guidelines God laid out for us. I'm referring to the idea that every time I disobey God, another sin is added to a list I have to ask forgiveness for.

I'm not saying that we didn't need Jesus to give himself up so we could be free from sin. I believe that totally. But if he didn't take care of all the sins of the world at that time, then what he did wasn't as significant as we make it out to be. I just believe that when he did it, he saved us from an old system where our sins hung over our head like a jail sentence. He took care of the sin dilemma, and created a new one: Will you love me? Will you love your neighbor? Can we be friends?

What I am talking about is the idea that God looks at each of us with our sin tally for the day... 4 lies, 2 cheats, 1 insult, 3 lusts, etc. etc. That is ridiculous. Why? Because the Bible says that God is love, and when it describes love it says that love keeps no record of wrongs. So from that, I don't believe God is counting my many sins, waiting for me to ask for forgiveness again. That removes the concept of grace... it makes God out to be a stickler in heaven, waiting for us to screw up... watching for us to make another mistake, which is such a twisted view of God that it makes me sick. God is sitting in heaven, loving us with all his heart, hoping we'll return that love.

The sins of all the world have been forgiven already... it's just whether or not we accept the forgiver.

 

[KingPin]

And incidentally, to all those who aren't Christians, sorry about all the jesus-speak and "christian-ese"... I didn't mean for my comments a few posts up to turn into this. I'm trying not to write my posts in a way that people can't understand what I'm talking about.

 

[Tarik]

There's no need to say sorry King Pin, althought a muslim, I'm interested in other religions, especially in christianity, I'm talking with a lot of christians in the internet,

about the communities and differences between Islam and Christianity, so I wanna know, how do the christians understand their religion....

I think that in the USA there are more christians, who really believe in the bible, in Germany, where I live, most ppl are "pro forma" christians.......most have problems with the trinity, as well as the muslims

 

[Basstrap]

What I am talking about is the idea that God looks at each of us with our sin tally for the day... 4 lies, 2 cheats, 1 insult, 3 lusts, etc. etc. That is ridiculous. Why? Because the Bible says that God is love, and when it describes love it says that love keeps no record of wrongs. So from that, I don't believe God is counting my many sins, waiting for me to ask for forgiveness again. That removes the concept of grace... it makes God out to be a stickler in heaven, waiting for us to screw up... watching for us to make another mistake, which is such a twisted view of God that it makes me sick. God is sitting in heaven, loving us with all his heart, hoping we'll return that love.

The sins of all the world have been forgiven already... it's just whether or not we accept the forgiver.

this is put very nicely.

God is our father and like an earthly father he will not come to us at the end of the day and give us a list of things we should repent of. Like an earthly father he will just enjoy it when we come to him and tell him how much we love him and how sorry we are that sometimes we fall down and how grateful we are that he is there to pick us up.

 

[whiteflag]

I have a more lengthy reply to Kingpin that I just have to get typed in to the pc. But since I may procrastinate for a few more days yet, I thought I would say this real quick

I believe that Christians are exempt from the tally of sins hanging over our heads. Kingpin and Basstrap have both misunderstood me. For me sin the noun still exists BUT it works on the people who haven't been saved through belief in Jesus as we are taught in the Bible. I believe that non-Christians are working against insurmountable odds in trying to achieve their own salvation. I believe that non-Christians are far more prone to be adversely affected in their souls by the sin thats in the world because they lack the immunization of the Holy Spirit whom they reject.

I do not believe that everyone, Christian and non-Christian is running around with a pure, clean soul right now as Kingpin seems to be implying when he says that sin ceased to be a stain or a warping influenece on the world when Jesus died on the cross. What he seems to be saying is that no matter what you believe, everyone is already saved even if they don't know it yet. For me, the Bible clearly only gaurantees salvation for those who believe in Jesus and receive the gift of the Holy Spirit through that belief. Otherwise, it is much harder to achieve salvation mostly because even small sins like intellectual pride can warp a soul by stealing its full energy and its full capacity to Love which may keep it from fitting through the door of heaven.

The only gaurantee that our souls work at full capacity is to have the Spirit, who is God, dwell in us. Only God can prevent the power of sin to harm the soul and only he can put a soul back in its original condition ie it being a finite but perfectly suitable place for Him to dwell. Only His presence can bleed the soul of its petty sins which are the greatest danger to us and our salvation since they turn us into the opposite of the heroes we were meant to be and we will be judged in the end by how far we end up from that ideal.

That said I believe that our God who is both demanding and loving has created a door to heaven that is sufficiently wide for all Christians no matter how sucessful and wide enough for the most innocent non-Christians to fit through it. But it is by no means wide enough to accomodate all non-Christians.

 

[Basstrap]

I don't know how you got this business of everyone being saved by reading kingpins post!!

I think is main qualm was with you personifying sin like its "coming to get us". Sin is a thing not some omnipresent person. It is something which exists on earth and acts as both a means AND an end. It can be the temptation and the result of the temptation.

 

[whiteflag]

I was not personifying sin. If you will go back and read my post, you'll find that i was careful to characterize sin as a disease or else like a carcinogen much like radiation or a chemical in our environment. Poisons and diseases cannot think or act independently like a person can but they nonetheless effect the people who live where they are present. They can get you without having to consciously act.


I also exempted Christians from the warping effects of sin. Though we continue to sin, sin cannot warp our souls. If we are truly repentent of our daily sins, they are washed away by God as if they were nothing. If we are truly repentent we cannot fall from Grace.

There is no scenario where the sincere believer in Jesus will be rejected by God. However, those who reject Him and make their hearts hard will find their chances to be iffy at best.

 

[whiteflag]

BTW Kingpin did make a statement to the effect that everyone is already forgiven, they just have to accept the forgiver. This is what led me to believe that he believes in universalism which is a Christian heresy (I don't mean that as strongly as it sounds. Thats just the word for it) Universalists use almost the exact same language when stating their belief that everyone regardless of belief is already saved. Maybe Kingpin only flirts with that line but doesn't cross it knowing better than that, but his statements make it seem otherwise.

He did say that sin, the noun, the stain, ceased to exist when Jesus died on the cross. That could very easily mean that non-Christians are as little damaged by sin as Christians are. From there its a very small step to say that non-Christians are already saved.

In my understanding, the orthodox Christian position (thats little "o", not big "O") is that escape from the stain of sin is only a potential, an offer extended to everyone. It is not already a fact which only has to be accepted. I know that we are getting into some high theological semantics here, but I sincerely believe that the distinctions in this case are very important.

If anyone wants to be gauranteed heaven, they MUST believe in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Our Risen Lord.

 

[RavenStar]

If anyone wants to be gauranteed heaven, they MUST believe in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Our Risen Lord.

And what if someone would rather not go to heaven?

 

[KingPin]

Dude, you just said it yourself.

"If anyone wants to be gauranteed heaven, they MUST believe in Jesus Christ, The Son of God, Our Risen Lord."

That's exactly what I mean by:

"The sins of all the world have been forgiven already... it's just whether or not we accept the forgiver"

Are you saying that when Jesus died he didn't forgive everyone's sins? He only forgave some of them? Or the sins he forgave changes according to us... so if I ask forgiveness, then he forgave more sins than if I hadn't asked him? Jesus's death didn't overcome sin? It just covered the sin of certain people? I would call that heresy.

You also said this:

"He did say that sin, the noun, the stain, ceased to exist when Jesus died on the cross. That could very easily mean that non-Christians are as little damaged by sin as Christians are. From there its a very small step to say that non-Christians are already saved."

I'm not flirting with any heretical lines. I'm telling it as the Bible tells me. The Bible says that Christ became sin, and died (thus sin ceasing to exist), freeing us from the old law of a sin record, where we were always under a death sentence for our sins. He took that sentence away and placed it on himself. I'm not saying that everyone is saved. Not at all... I'm just clarifying the problem. He has salvation in his hands... do I accept him, and receive that gift? Or do I reject him, and push that gift away? This is the issue that we face today.

I do believe that we are all capable of sinning and so we will. I don't believe that God is counting all those sins (love keeps no record of wrongs), waiting for someone to say they're sorry... God is waiting for them to love Him and thank Him for what He did. And when a person truly does that, they will realize that they have sinned in the past, and turn from it, working towards a life that pleases God.

 

[KingPin]

And what if someone would rather not go to heaven?

Well, if someone did not want to go to heaven, at least the heaven that Christianity believes in, then they would have to know that God loved them intensely, wanted to spend time with them, and wanted to feel their love in return, but they'd still turn away from it. They would have to feel in their heart that they did not need help from God, and that they did not need anything he offers. (For someone to not want to go to Heaven would mean that they do not want to feel loved or valuable, they do not want to be happy or at peace, they do not want life and knowledge, etc.)

It should be noted that if they believe in the Christian idea of heaven, then they would are automatically ascribing faith in the concept of hell, which is essentially complete and utter separation from God, and complete separation from everyone and everything else. They would be choosing to be completely alone, without love, or light, or truth, or happiness, or even the hope of any of those things.

I believe that if someone truly understood what Heaven is, and truly understood what the alternative is, then they would jump at the chance to enter heaven, and take part in all that God is offering us in heaven.