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Old 05-16-2002, 10:58 PM   #201
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Ravenstar,
Do Satanists forgive others?
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Old 05-16-2002, 11:02 PM   #202
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Point XXII: Do not answer questions about forgiveness(?)
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Old 05-17-2002, 07:53 PM   #203
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
read you?


Yea.
Verily.

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Old 05-20-2002, 03:47 AM   #204
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80's, it would depend on what they did.

P.s I've been away all weekend. Thats why I didnt get a chance to respond.

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Old 05-20-2002, 06:28 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:
bubba, first of all, keep in mind that the 21 satanic points are from the ONA, which is a fundamentalist satanic group. I am a modern satanist. I do agree with most of the points though just in a different way than other satanist might. Most of modern Satanism is all about symbolism and metephors. I also do not believe in souls so losing something I dont think exists has no effect what so ever on me.

Once again, Ravenstar, could you explain exactly how you interpret these points? What do they mean to you? Which ones do you agree with and which ones do you not agree with? Surely, since you've professed to be a member of this religion, you would have formed some understanding of what they mean to you and therefore could offer some explanation towards the questions I have asked. I am still looking for answers to some of my earlier questions.


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Old 05-20-2002, 07:26 PM   #206
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I - Respect not pity or weakness, for they are a disease which makes sick the strong

Agree. This one is to the point so I don't have to explain it

II - Test always your strength, for therein lies success

Neutral. Sure, your strengths assures succes, but if you test your weaknesses they will become your strengtha

III- Seek happiness in victory - but never in peace

Neutral. Victory for me means peace.

IV - Enjoy a short rest, better than a long

Agree. This one is straight forward

V - Come as a reaper, for thus you shall sow

Neutral.

VI - Never love anything so much you cannot see it die

Agree.

VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time

Agree. This isnt just for physical things but for stuff like friendship, etc

VIII - Strive ever for more, for conquest is never done

Neutral. I agree with the first part.

IX - And die rather than submit

Agree.

X - Forge not works of art but swords of death, for therein lies great art

Disagree.

XI - Learn to raise yourself above yourself so can triumph over all

Agree.

XII - The blood of the living makes good
fertilizer for the seeds of the new

Agree. Let the old teach the new.

XIII - He who stands atop the highest pyrimad of skulls can see the furthest

Agree. I don't look at skulls as dead people but more as rocks. The pyramid is a strong shape so it is goos to climb it. Seeing the furthest means succes in life.

XIV - Discard not love but treat it as an imposter, but ever be just

Disagree.

XV - All that is great is built upon sorrow

Disagree.

XVI - Strive not only forward, but upwards for greatness lies in the highest

Agree. Similar to the pyramid one.

XVII - Come as a fresh strong wind that breaks yet also creates

Agree. Break barriers that hold back humanity, create bridges to help yourself and loved ones.

XVIII - Let love of life be a goal but let your highest goal be greatness

Agree.

XIX - Nothing is beautiful except man: but most beautiful of all is woman

AGREE! We females rock.

XX - Regect all illusion and lies, for they hinder the strong

Agree.

XXI - What does not kill, makes stronger

Agree.


I think I missed some of your earlier questions, could you post them again.


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Old 05-20-2002, 08:02 PM   #207
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Achtung Bubba:

If you get a chance, email me at U2Bama@u2email.com. Thanks.

~U2Alabama
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Old 05-21-2002, 03:07 AM   #208
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I'm on an actual vacation, hence, my lack of replies in this thread. (Also, I tried to answer a couple comments before I left, but the reply was never posted, apparently.)

Three points, all of which now seem fairly random as this thread is moving on to other things...

1. 80s, thanks for you kind words.

2. Bama: nope, not going out west. I'm still attending grad school in Pittsburgh, so I'll probably limit myself to Auburn's home games against LSWho and Georgia.

However, I AM going to the SEC Baseball Tournament in Hoover this week/weekend, and it should be a lot of fun.

3. I wanted to comment about quite a few of the Satanic Points, most of which I strongly disagree with. (I particularly disagree with the emphasis on victory, strength, and pride.) But, I don't have too much time to write, so I will focus on the one point I actually agree with completely:

VII - Build not upon sand but upon rock, and build not for today or yesterday but for all time

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus Christ also agrees with the notion of storing your treasures where they cannot be destroyed.

(I'm without my usual resources, so if somebody asks, I'll post the actual verses another time. Or, if 80s or another Christian can post the verses, I'd greatly appreciate it.)

The difference, I believe, is that the Satanic points presume that it's possible to actually create something permanent in this world. That JUST isn't the case. Monuments of stone and even a name in the annals of history crumble, fade, and disappear. And even if your work lasts (for a while), it does you no good in the grave.

There is but one thing of genuine, eternal permanence that an individual is responsible for: the human soul.

And, to quote Christ again, what does it matter if a man gains EVERYTHING but loses his soul in the process?

(And, by implication, if a man DOES preserve his soul, what does it matter if he loses everything else? You were going to lose everything else, either way.)
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Old 05-21-2002, 03:34 AM   #209
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bubba, first of all, keep in mind that the 21 satanic points are from the ONA, which is a fundamentalist satanic group. I am a modern satanist. I do agree with most of the points though just in a different way than other satanist might. Most of modern Satanism is all about symbolism and metephors. I also do not believe in souls so losing something I dont think exists has no effect what so ever on me.

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Old 05-21-2002, 01:27 PM   #210
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Thanks Ravenstar for taking the time to answer that. The other questions I asked earlier are in bold below.

Quote:
Originally posted by babble:


For instance you say that you would gain nothing from helping an enemy and therefore I gather that you would not help this person, this enemy, even if their life depended upon your aid. Therefore, one naturally wonders what the definition of an enemy would be, someone who's life,according to Satanism, is apparantly not worth saving. Would an enemy be someone who has tried to actually kill you or a friend or family, or could an enemy be someone that you find obnoxious or that has lied to you? You see, enemy is quite an ambiguous word that could be applied to someone who has committed a wide spectrum of offenses.

Then another point that has been brought up is to what extent "no mercy" is applied. No mercy until the death of the offender? And what would that person have to do to offend to the point of being offered no mercy? This term "no mercy" is also quite ambiguous.

Also you pointed out that if the person offends you and you tell them to stop but they continue then you follow rule 11 and "destroy" him/her. By destroy do you mean kill (as that is what usually comes to mind when the word destroy is mentioned) and if so does that mean Satanism advocates murder? You must admit many of these things do sound very controversial. The key seems to be in the interpretation.

Also I might point out that rule 11 appears to have nothing to do with someone offending you in your lair but if someone bothers you out in open territory. And what does it mean by "bother" anyway?
You see, the Satanist points and rules are choke-full of very ambiguous terms and words that appear to reap very dire consequences and it seems to me to be vital to understand what these things mean. So my question is how do you, Ravenstar, interpret "enemy" and "no mercy" and "destroy" and even "bother"? How do you define these terms according to your religion? Are there official interpretations?
I have some more questions/comments but I'll post those later since I've asked you so much already. And maybe your answers to some of the above questions will clear up some of the others I have.
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Old 05-21-2002, 02:34 PM   #211
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The Beatitudes

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted
Blessed are the meek,
for that shall possess the earth
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for justice
for they shal be satisfied
Blessed are the merciful
for they shall obtain mercy
Blessed are the clean of heart,
for they shall see God
Blessed are the peacemakers
for they shall be called children of God
Blessed are they who suffer persecution for justice sake,
for theirs is the kingdom of Heaven
Blessed are you when men reproach you, and
persecute you, and
speaking falsely, say all manner of evil against you,
for my sake.

The Lord's Prayer
Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.
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Old 05-21-2002, 04:22 PM   #212
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Would an enemy be someone who has tried to actually kill you or a friend or family, or could an enemy be someone that you find obnoxious or that has lied to you?

If the person tried to kill me or a friend or family might not excatly be my enemy. The could quite possibly have a good reason for it. But yes, if they had no reason they would probably be my enemy. This depends on my relationship with the person. An enemy could be someone who lied to me but I lie all the time so it doent bother me much. If the lie could hurt someone thats different.

No mercy until the death of the offender? And what would that person have to do to offend to the point of being offered no mercy?

Not excatly death, alot of pain though. It depends on what they did to begin with. I dont get offended but if they tried to hurt me or a friend without reason then I act out no mercy.

By destroy do you mean kill (as that is what usually comes to mind when the word destroy is mentioned) and if so does that mean Satanism advocates murder?

It doesnt mean to kill for me. Destroy could be in the symbolic sense. I could ignore them perhaps, or something else. Satanism does not advocate breaking laws without reason.

And what does it mean by "bother" anyway?

Bother as in touch something you asked them not to because it has value, pestering, harassing, etc.

I summed up the last question in the other answers.



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Old 05-23-2002, 03:04 AM   #213
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I've read through all of these posts and I'm very interested in this entire subject matter. Learning about and attempting to comprehend other people's beliefs helps me to come to a better understanding of my own beliefs. This topic has given me a lot to think about.
Since we seem to be floating around the topic of Satanism right now...
I wanted to ask a question/ offer an observation. The question, I guess, is what would it be like if all people followed the ideals put forth in Satanism? To sort of answer the question based upon the little bit I've read, which I admit probably doesn't even scratch the surface, I would say that because of the stress on individualism, that everyone (including murderers, rapists, child abusers, etc.) could use the statements,etc. to justify pretty much anything? Now, I will put forth that many religions have used their doctrines to justify all kinds of horrible things, but in the end these things are quite arguable and the people are held accountable (in one way or another) based upon what the religious doctrines actually say. Whereas, who could argue points of right or wrong or morality with a belief system that bases these things solely on the individual's desires. And why even have laws?
Whew, I'm not sure if I'm making any sense. My head hurts and I think the room is spinning! But, for Ravenstar...
What do you think an entire world following the statements of Satanism looks like? Because I really do find it hard to imagine, although, I venture to say that many people follow the philosophies of Satanism without having subscribed to its beliefs specifically and/or despite their official belief system. And also, you personally seem to value peace (although fundamental Satanism doesn't seem to), but in a world where everyone is out to be on top of the pyramid, could there be such a thing? I mean, a pyramid only has one point that, certainly, not everyone could stand on.

Just some thoughts I had rumbling around. To me, it seems that there are holes in the logic of Satanism as an ideal for society. However, many would say there are holes logically in what I believe also. That's what it is to believe and have faith in something. And I am constantly reassessing my own beliefs, so thank you Ravenstar (and others) for being so straightforward with your beliefs.

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Old 05-23-2002, 04:28 PM   #214
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Trying to imagine the whole world following satanic beliefs is hard. I almost think humans are made to think differently than each other. But if you think about it, if everyone in the world shared the same beliefs as each other, everyone would get along. Most of the wars would never have happened. Obviously I think the world would be a better place if we were all Satanists. But you cant push stuff like that on people. If its not natural its not worth it. I hate child abusers, rapist, etc. They arent human. We should test new medications on them. The worst part is when they say they are Satanist to get away with it. No Satanist would ever harm a child or rape someone. Even murder someone. Murder is an unlawful killing. Satanist usually don't like breaking laws.
About having laws, laws are a good way to keep people in line. I agree that some laws are stupid, but alot of them do make sense. J-walking for example. If everyone j-walked, why have crosswalks? Or why put those lines on the pavement for people to walk in? Laws do make sense, that is why we have them.

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Old 05-24-2002, 12:30 AM   #215
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*Blasting outta lurk-land, whiteflag blows by dancingbarefoot and jauntily waves..*

I so want to get into this discussion.

I am working on a response to what dancingbarefoot said about all religions having holes in their logic. Its a good thought that I want to pick up on.

But for right now I would like to say a couple of things to ravenstar.

If you don't believe that you have a soul, why bother calling your belief system a religion? Whats the point? One thing all religions believe in is some sort of afterlife for the human soul. Since your system deals with this life only, a perfectly good strategy already in wide use, would be to call it a personal philosophy. This is especially appropriate since what you believe is entirely optional for you whereas religion implies quite the opposite. IMO, to call what you believe a religion is engaging in that very same self-deceit and pretension you say you are against. A religion, my friend, almost by definition aspires to something higher than just this life. In addition to an afterlife, all religions also worship an unseen diety that for them is quite real and all religions believe that this diety ,whoever/whatever it is, will hold them accountable in some way for this life. As a few others have already pointed out, your belief system has alot more in common with other branches of philosophy than it does with religion.

Having said that, your choosing to all yourself a satanist then seems just really random to me. You say you dont believe in Satan, you don't worship him etc. So the only good reason left to to call yourself a satanist is to provoke people. Which is what I suspect is the case.

Come on admit it. I wont think worse of you if you do. Don't you just like to shock people? Do you like the reaction and the noteriety you get by saying you're a satanist? Rock stars do no less with their behavior.

So am I right or wrong about you? I'd really like to know.


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Old 05-24-2002, 12:51 AM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflag:
If you don't believe that you have a soul...

Come on admit it. I wont think worse of you if you do. Don't you just like to shock people? Do you like the reaction and the noteriety you get by saying you're a satanist? Rock stars do no less with their behavior.
Ha ha, whiteflag! RavenStar must have missed the Elevation show! She ain't got no soul, and we all know (if we caught the show) that THE GOAL IS SOUL!!!!!

~U2Alabama


[This message has been edited by U2Bama (edited 05-23-2002).]
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Old 05-24-2002, 12:55 AM   #217
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The other thing I came out of lurkdom for was to say

I love you Bubba!

You are easily the most precise and articulate Christian I have erm, read, in online forums like this one.

YEAH!

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Old 05-24-2002, 06:17 AM   #218
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Raven Star. You say you are a modern Satanist. Are there seperate websites for modern satanists? What is the difference? Thanks this is all really interesting
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Old 05-24-2002, 02:19 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by whiteflag:
*Having said that, your choosing to all yourself a satanist then seems just really random to me. You say you dont believe in Satan, you don't worship him etc. So the only good reason left to to call yourself a satanist is to provoke people. Which is what I suspect is the case.

Come on admit it. I wont think worse of you if you do. Don't you just like to shock people? Do you like the reaction and the noteriety you get by saying you're a satanist? Rock stars do no less with their behavior.
This isn't really fair. RavenStar has taken the time and effort to answer our questions and explain her belief system as clearly as she can, and now you're accusing her of just wanting to "shock" us? She explained what exactly the word "Satan" means in terms of her religion, and it seems to make sense, even if I don't myself agree with it:


Quote:
Originally posted by RavenStar:

we view satan as a symbol for the natural side of human nature. we model ourselves after satan and that is why it is called Satanism
Shocking, eh?

[This message has been edited by Hallelujah Here She Comes (edited 05-24-2002).]
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Old 05-24-2002, 04:04 PM   #220
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thank you.

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