Opression of women by Islamic fundamentalists

[Shine * Like* Stars*]

I hope this isn't too controversial and I don't know if it's been discussed before, but I was just thinking about this. I was at the grocery store and there was an Islamic woman, all bound up in a black cloak and a beige piece of material wrapped all around her head. I couldn't see her eyes, but she had to be able to see, she was pushing the shopping cart- 10 feet behind her husband, who was walking proudly ahead in western clothes. He paid for everything, of course she wouldn't be trusted with the money.

I have a question I wanted discussed. Why is this, and much worse opression and discrimination against women justified as part of their religion and culture? At one time or another, it has been somewhat a part of almost every religion and culture, but that's how things were in ancient times, and modern society has risen above that. Such behavior is considered unacceptable in most of the world, why are they alone allowed to continue? I pity those women

 

[AcrobatMan]

>>Islamic fundamentalists

I can sense some amount of tautology here

 

[Shine * Like* Stars*]

SIGH. Well I didn't know what to call them without pissing somebody off. If I just said "Islamic" somebody would say, "don't stereotype they're not all like that" so I wanted to distiguish in a term most people would understand, I suppose I blew it anyway. I still think the opressing certain members of the Islamic faith subject women to is so terrible that I'm really don't care if I do offend them. <-----them being only the ones I described. Some people really don't deserve to be mollycoddled. God knows they wouldn't do the same for you.

So, does anyone have an answer to the question?

 

[dream wanderer]

I really don't have an answer to your question...except from what I understand this veiling of women is mostly cultural and not religious. Things may be twisted around to make it part of the religion (in the American south in the old days there were some preachers who could twist the Scriptures around to make it look like segregation was ordained by God) and that is probably what the Islamic fundamentalists have done...taken something that is strictly cultural and forced it into their religion.

Everytime I see these women I think of the present Queen of Jordan...she is Palestinean...Muslem...and she doesn't wear a veil. She doesn't even wear a headscarf...I saw her in an interview recently wearing a t-shirt and jeans!! I have had many good friends tell me that here in the states for the most part the head covering is optional...if a woman wants to..fine...if not fine. The only equivilent I can think of in Christianity is some Christian women think its wrong for a woman to wear pants (they believe its wrong to wear 'men's clothing"...but it is HER decision. If a woman does not want to...fine...if she does...ok.

That really doesn't answer you question...its more a reflection on the same theme...


dream wanderer

 

[pax]

Is Queen Noor still recognized as the Queen of Jordan (even after the death of King Hussein)? Don't forget she was American.

 

[dream wanderer]

I said the PRESENT Queen..the wife of the PRESENT King Abdulla, the son of the late King Hussein and Queen Noor's stepson.....the present Queen is a young Palestenian woman....sorry if that wasn't clear...and sorry that I don't remember her name!

I don't know what Queen Noor's title is now..I don't know if they have a 'Queen Mum' in Jodan!

dream wanderer

 

[AcrobatMan]

SIGH. Well I didn't know what to call them without pissing somebody off. If I just said "Islamic" somebody would say, "don't stereotype they're not all like that" so I wanted to distiguish in a term most people would understand, I suppose I blew it anyway. I still think the opressing certain members of the Islamic faith subject women to is so terrible that I'm really don't care if I do offend them. <-----them being only the ones I described. Some people really don't deserve to be mollycoddled. God knows they wouldn't do the same for you.

So, does anyone have an answer to the question?

There are always 2 ways of telling things

Way 1 Fact 1: Not all muslims are terrorists
Way 2 Fact 2: Yes but most of the terrorists are muslims.

 

[Hallelujah Here She Comes]

This is an interesting topic. But I don't think it's fair to start the discussion on the basis that covering (wearing a veil) is inherently sexist and oppressive. I'm not Muslim so I can't truly speak as to what it's like, but I've heard many women talk about why they cover and why they believe their religion tells them to do so (and yes, it is a religious practice. The basis for it is lifted from the Qur'an). Instead of it oppressing them, they feel that covering frees them from being judged by their outer appearance and sexuality. It focuses attention on their minds and personalities instead of on their looks. I'm sure I'm not explaining this fully and I'm not even saying I agree with this. I'm just trying to explain the motivation for covering and show that it's not simply meant to oppress.

But of course many Muslim women are oppressed. Why is this allowed to continue? I really don't know. Sorry I don't have an answer to your actual question, but I just felt a couple things needed to be clarified.

 

[Hallelujah Here She Comes]

>>Islamic fundamentalists

I can sense some amount of tautology here

This comment makes no sense. Of course there are some Islamic fundamentalists, but are you honestly trying to imply that Islam is an inherently fundamentalist religion? All religions have their fanatics. It's easy to focus attention on these fanatics because of their extreme beliefs. But that doesn't make the entire religion a fanatical one.

There are always 2 ways of telling things

Way 1 Fact 1: Not all muslims are terrorists
Way 2 Fact 2: Yes but most of the terrorists are muslims.

Care to explain what you mean by this? I mean, you couldn't possibly be implying that Muslims have a prediliction towards terrorism, more than members of other religions. Because that would just be plain bigotry.

 

[AcrobatMan]

Of course there are some Islamic fundamentalists, but are you honestly trying to imply that Islam is an inherently fundamentalist religion? All religions have their fanatics. It's easy to focus attention on these fanatics because of their extreme beliefs. But that doesn't make the entire religion a fanatical one.

I used the word some and you also seem to agree in your own words "there are some Islamic fundamentalists". So I dont see much conflict between you and me.

I mean, you couldn't possibly be implying that Muslims have a prediliction towards terrorism, more than members of other religions. Because that would just be plain bigotry.

Whether Muslims have predilection of becoming terrorist or not is not what I am worried about. I dont imply anything. I dont mean to imply anything. But on the other hand, I dont retract any of my statements for the simple reason that they are true. Most of the terrorists are indeed muslims.

 

[Hallelujah Here She Comes]

I used the word some and you also seem to agree in your own words "there are some Islamic fundamentalists". So I dont see much conflict between you and me.

Well, then I guess I misunderstood your use of the word "tautology." As far as I know, a tautology is equating two things that are identical, so that the equation is basically pointless, like saying 1 = 1. So when you said that the phrase "Islamic Fundamentalist" was a bit of a tautology, I interpreted that as you saying that "Islamic" and "Fundamentalist" are basically the same thing, which they are not. Conceding that there are indeed some Islamic fundamentalists doesn't mean I think being Islamic and being a fundamentalist are the one and the same. That's all I was trying to say. I guess I just don't know what you were trying to get at.

Whether Muslims have predilection of becoming terrorist or not is not what I am worried about. I dont imply anything. I dont mean to imply anything. But on the other hand, I dont retract any of my statements for the simple reason that they are true. Most of the terrorists are indeed muslims.

Most of what terrorists? Most of the 9-11 terrorists? Yes. Most of the terrorists in Israel? Yes. But most of the terrorists in Northern Ireland were Catholic. Most of the people who slaughtered the Tutsis in Rwanda were Hutus. But what's the point of pointing this out? I guess I don't understand the why what you posted if it didn't have any further implications. Maybe you could explain? I'm not trying to be a smart-ass here, I'm just trying to understand what you meant.

 

[Shine * Like* Stars*]

I didn't mean just the head covering, it was just the head covering that brought the subject up to me. Hers was no 'veil' it looked more like a thick light brown burlap bag! It was 99 degrees outside! Add to that the fact that her clad for summer husband walked ahead of her, in the tradition that a woman must keep 10 paces to the rear of a man. In some places in Saudi Arabia, one of the most westernized Islamic nations, women may not eat in the same part of the resturaunt as a man!! Now that is just as bad as the white/black tables before desegregation in the US! Disgraceful! I have also seen reports ( I am very into the news and educational cable channels) that showed forced female circumcision (which is internal) and the virtual sewing up of the vaginal opening, at an early age, many times leading to infection and even death. Women in many regions are not allowed to choose their husband, and some have been stoned by a male relative as a matter of honor to the family if she 'strays.' The forced garments, no driving, no money, no job, no vote, all these things are happening to women in the 21st century and that is unacceptable. I just don't see how justifying it as culture or religion still works for them now in this day and age after all the freedoms women and minorities have gained in all other societies. Discrimination is WRONG and there is no excuse.

 

[U2Bama]

In some places in Saudi Arabia, one of the most westernized Islamic nations,

Saudi Arabia may traditionally be "pro-Western" in diplomatic affairs, but its culture is far from being among the "most westernized" of "Islamic nations." Perhaps the "most westernized" in the region we are discussing would be Jordan, Syria or Turkey in that they do not have the strictest of cultural and religious laws and allow women to live in a "western" lifestyls, but Saudi Arabia has Wahabi rule, a harsh theocratic code that is closed to "western" influences.

Aside from that, I agree with a lot of what you are saying, AcrobatMan.

~U2Alabama

 

[Angela Harlem]

I cant really comment on the theory behind all the head gear etc in their own countries better than anyone else here, but over the last few years I have become friends with a muslim woman here in Australia. She was born here but every now and then we discuss her religion and these kind of things. I made a comment one day about the traditions of their culture still remaining strong when they immigrate to places like here, and from your post I guess america is no different. She made an interesting comment to that specifically about head dress etc and said that even though they may move and even relax some of the traditions, for a woman who has spent the last 25 years or whatever of her life with her face covered is not at ease with suddenly walking around in a western country completely bare faced.
I guess it equates to one of us suddenly joining a nudist camp and whipping off our tops. It would take some getting used to.

I think the point I'm trying to make is, that perhaps times are changing, but it has to be done at a pace the individual is comfortable with. I hope I'm not implying you made any assumptions about this couple you saw because I know you weren't. Its just that what my friend told me opened my eyes a lot more to this transplanting of culture to a basically westernised environment. It got me thinking lol!

 

[dream wanderer]

I think that is true of any culture when people come to the west....someone could come here from Asia and it will be several generations before the family is truly 'westernized'. The first immigrants will hold on to customs and traditions that had in the 'old country'...so I would assume Muslems would be no different..

Hallelujah...when I spoke and have listened to Muslem women...they have said its the idea of modesty that is lifted from the Koran...not specific coverings. I think the different coverings vary from culture to culture...one woman honestly believed all she needed for 'modesty' was a pair of dark sunglasses so men would not have to look her in the eyes...to her that was modesty enough...where I used to work (in a school system) a Muslem family lived there...and the women kept their arms and legs covered...but wore no head covering whatsoever. I think its the modesty that is important to them..
But then again...I may have misinterpreted...or we could all be talking to people from different cultures and different schools of interpretations...its like Christianity...there are differences ...

But I don't think this is really what Shine *Like* Stars* wants to discuss...I think she wants to delve more into that kind of mentality that makes men agree with this kind of thing...

dream wanderer

 

[AcrobatMan]

Most of what terrorists? Most of the 9-11 terrorists? Yes

Most.. or ALL ?

Most of the terrorists in Israel? Yes.

Most or ALL ?


When I said most, I meant most of overall terrorism.

 

[CannibalisticArtist]

the US and Israel are not the whole world.
what about domestic terrorism in africa and n.ireland? the whole of south america? most of the terrorism there is not from muslims.

 

[jala]

I know what you mean. It's much worse than we know. The honor-killings are more reported and much more brutal. I was watching this thing on national geographic and there was this lady that was beaten by her husband and as he heled her down choking her, her mother in law poured gasoline on her and lit her on fire. Man, it was horrible. She finally complained to this women's outreach, and she was burned from head to toe. She had been lying in bed for four month with her wounds!!!!! No medical help or anything. She decided to call the women's outreach because her wounds were so bad they started to rot away her skin!!! I've heard other worse stories that just makes me want to cry. The reason why he beat her? Because he felt that she didn't listen to him.

 

[Anoosh Vs. God]

Islamic countries are brutal to women, and such brutality is being tolerated because people are afraid of interfering with other 'cultures'. This issue has everything to do with the culture, because their culture revolves around their oppressive religion. Women accept the veil because they are taught too. Without education or the most basic civil liberties, these women know no other way of living. Furthermore, they'd rather wear it than suffer beatings, or punishment in their afterlife. These are human rights violations, and they must be addressed.

 

[Jam Jar]

might I say that in Islam, women are important, but secondly..in mosques women are separated from the men while praying..why? I don't know- Yes, women being treated this way in Islamic countries is a violation of human rights, but this, unfortunately, has been the way it always has been, and i'm afraid we can't tell them not to, because it is part of their culture, how they were taught.

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

might I say that in Islam, women are important, but secondly..in mosques women are separated from the men while praying..why? I don't know- Yes, women being treated this way in Islamic countries is a violation of human rights, but this, unfortunately, has been the way it always has been, and i'm afraid we can't tell them not to, because it is part of their culture, how they were taught.

Obviously I can't speak for all Muslim women, but those that I know don't believe that sitting seperately from men is degrading to them. Nor do they believe that Islam violates women's rights or that oppression of women is a part of their culture. I might not choose to wear the hijab, I might see that as oppressive but I don't think I have a right to judge whether someone else is oppressed by their decision to do so or not.

 

[oliveu2cm]

Islamic countries are brutal to women, and such brutality is being tolerated because people are afraid of interfering with other 'cultures'. This issue has everything to do with the culture, because their culture revolves around their oppressive religion. Women accept the veil because they are taught too. Without education or the most basic civil liberties, these women know no other way of living. Furthermore, they'd rather wear it than suffer beatings, or punishment in their afterlife. These are human rights violations, and they must be addressed.

Yes, I agree with what you are saying. Sorry to add to this conversation that is nearly over, but oh well. The fact of the matter comes down to these women having control over their own lives, which most of them do not. They are not given the opportunity to be educated or even act out of free will (rather they have to act out of fear). I have no problem whatsoever with a woman dressing/acting in compliance with her religion- UNLESS she is complying under force. I don't think most of them are given another option, which is where the 'force' comes into play.

For people who ARE interested, there are many websites that have lots of information available about what is going on and what can be done to help these women get equality.

RAWA

V-Day

 

[anitram]

might I say that in Islam, women are important, but secondly..in mosques women are separated from the men while praying..why? I don't know- Yes, women being treated this way in Islamic countries is a violation of human rights, but this, unfortunately, has been the way it always has been, and i'm afraid we can't tell them not to, because it is part of their culture, how they were taught.

I can't remember my World Religion class exactly, but aren't there orthodox Jewish synagogues where men and women are separated as well? Is that a violation of human rights?

 

[cell]

I remember this one lady I went to school with. She is from Afghanistan. The first few weeks she wore a head covering and dark clothing. Her husband had been in a terrible accident, so they had no income coming in except for some type of disability on his end. It wasn't enough to live on. So she went to school to learn office skills. I don't know how her husband felt about her going back to school, but it took alot of courage on her part to do what she did, coming from a country that treat women like nothing. After a few months, she was no longer wearing the head covering. She told me she loves dressing up. I remember when she was sitting down doing a project in class, some other girl didnt know she was from Afghanistan, and when she found out, she accused her of being a spy. This was several months after 9/11. It took me several minutes to talk her into going back to class. I'm glad I did. She and I graduated with our class this year in April. She kicks ass. I wish more women from those types of countries would follow my friend's example.