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Old 11-09-2017, 10:19 AM   #741
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Nice, France truck attack?


In some alternate history those kingdoms united.
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:32 AM   #742
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In some alternate history those kingdoms united.
Oh so only the UK, well so the London bridge truck & stabbing only killed 8 and injured 48 so its not double digits, so therefore all is well.
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:54 AM   #743
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Oh so only the UK, well so the London bridge truck & stabbing only killed 8 and injured 48 so its not double digits, so therefore all is well.


I'm not sure if you're gently calling me out for some disregard for human life right there, but the point was about guns and terrorism.

You can't stop someone's decision to drive a car into people. You can't stop someone making a bomb at home. Intelligence can, but legislation... not really. Guns? You can stop them. And they're typically the deadliest form of mass murder, unless it's a highly sophisticated plot.

What happens when three terrorists in england, without a sophisticated plot, attempt to commit mass murder? Excuse my crudeness, but they could barely exchange their life for two others before being fought back against and shot dead by armed police in a carefully thought out system.

Is that story unique, though? No. Westminster bridge. Same deal. Finsbury Park? Same deal. The U.K. has a terrorism history of petty attacks and mostly failed bombings. Meanwhile, in the US, I imagine #10 on the US mass shooting list is bigger than #1 in the U.K. for non IED attacks. Heck, I bet #20 is bigger than #1.
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Old 11-09-2017, 01:01 PM   #744
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Not calling you out, just making the point that there are ways to commit mass murder that terrorists are currently employing that no form of legislation unfortunately will prevent.
I agree about gun control, just that your original statement that in the UK mass murder doesn't happen without a bomb or guns was a little too simplistic.
Obviously if these folks have no access to guns it makes it more difficult to commit these acts of terror, but they can find other means, and the vehicle into a crowd method is becoming far too prevalent nowadays, and can cause mass casualties.
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Old 11-09-2017, 01:13 PM   #745
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Not calling you out, just making the point that there are ways to commit mass murder that terrorists are currently employing that no form of legislation unfortunately will prevent.
I agree about gun control, just that your original statement that in the UK mass murder doesn't happen without a bomb or guns was a little too simplistic.
Obviously if these folks have no access to guns it makes it more difficult to commit these acts of terror, but they can find other means, and the vehicle into a crowd method is becoming far too prevalent nowadays, and can cause mass casualties.


You've missed the point, still.

It's not just some one-off simplistic statement. In the case of London bridge, three attackers got out of a vehicle with knives and fake suicide vests. And people fought back.

Those attackers just as easily could have had guns, were this the United States. And nobody would've fought back. And scores would have been dead.

I never disagreed about different ways existing that are being employed. If you've noticed, the vehicle thing more often than not is far less efficient than they wish it to be. The reality is, guns allow for non-sophisticated plots to have rapid casualties. Cars typically do not, or are, at the very least, a crapshoot for those terrorists.
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:00 PM   #746
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Some Florida school is selling bullet-proof backpack inserts, because this is our life now.

Bulletproof panels for students' backpacks being sold by Florida school - CNN
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Old 11-09-2017, 03:04 PM   #747
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Ah, capitalism on the fear of consumers.

Such a disgusting thing.
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Old 11-09-2017, 04:07 PM   #748
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We’ve read that argument in here, and they’re right if that’s how we define these rights. That’s why I believe there has to be a focus on how the constitution grants these rights to regulated groups, not individuals.
I don't know what you mean by this. Focus by who? To what end? The SCOTUS has spoken on this issue, that makes it settled, until the Court changes their opinion or the Constitution is changed.

Until then, the individual/collective right debate is an academic discussion. And I mean that literally...an academic debate among Constitutional scholars. And there are plenty of good arguments by brilliant minds on both sides of that one.
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:05 PM   #749
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Sigh.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/three-kil...182238179.html

My reaction to this news should not be a simple "sigh". And yet...
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Old 11-14-2017, 02:12 PM   #750
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Sigh.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/three-kil...182238179.html

My reaction to this news should not be a simple "sigh". And yet...
My reaction also scares me cuz it seems I'm just more or less numb to it...

BUT more importatntly WHAT kind of weapon was it... cuz you know... that's whats important.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:12 PM   #751
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It's not a numbness for me, just a continued anger and frustration that we keep allowing this shit to go on.

None of the kids at the school are among the dead, so that's one bit of good news, at least. They're still no doubt going to be pretty shaken up by this experience, though, and, as noted, a few were taken to the hospital.

But hey, as long as people get to keep their precious guns, that's the most important thing, clearly.
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:47 PM   #752
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There's hardly even any coverage on this so far... which just adds to how sad this all is.

5 people killed in and around an elementary school and it barely breaks through.
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:45 PM   #753
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Wow, what a surprise. Suspect is a male with a history of domestic violence.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:17 AM   #754
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https://theslot.jezebel.com/bipartis...est-1820508145

Yeah, probably a good idea. Bet plenty of them would vote against it.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:35 AM   #755
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About time for the meaningless platitudes from the right ("thoughts and prayers") and the political posturing from the left ("common sense gun control"), neither of which will stop these these things from occurring.
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Old 11-25-2017, 01:25 PM   #756
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All the time we hear about how important it is for hunters to be able to continue to hunt - truthfully on a personal level I really don't care if they can hunt either but that seems to be a minority view.

A hunter looked in his yard an hour after sunset in NY state and thought he saw a deer so he shot at it with a handgun (legal for deer hunting). It is illegal to deer hunt after dark. He killed his neighbour, a 43-year-old woman who was walking her dogs the evening before Thanksgiving. But I guess his right to own a gun and hunt "responsibly" (why the hell do we just trust that is what people will do?) supersedes her right to life.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.082c6607ec10
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Old 11-25-2017, 01:37 PM   #757
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But I guess his right to own a gun and hunt "responsibly" (why the hell do we just trust that is what people will do?) supersedes her right to life.
This really isn't the soundest argument though.

If we were willing to give up more of our rights (for example, privacy rights, rights against unreasonable search and seizure), there's no doubt we could save lives. But at what cost?

In other words, if the government had unfettered access to your (and everyone's) email and web history, listen without warrant to every call you make, could search your person or home at will, could compel the unlocking of your phone, and could stop you on the street for random search and questioning, we could certainly stop more terrorist incidents and save lives. If the police could indefinitely detain people on even the suspicion of terrorism, we'd stop some terrorist incidents, even if a lot of innocent people were inconvenienced.

Do your privacy rights supersede the right of others to live free of terrorism?

If you could get rid of the second amendment in exchange for giving up the fourth, would you take that bargain, if doing so would save lives?

At some point after 9/11 during the Bush years, a group of Israeli security experts were invited to the US to share their expertise on combating terrorism, given that Israel is a constant target but still manages to keep their instances of terrorism relatively low. Their conclusion? That America could in fact be made much safer, but the Bill of Rights would have to be changed to institute the kind of measures necessary to achieve that safety. Some of their recommendations made it into the Patriot Act, but most were unfeasible given the Constitutional limitations.

Of course, I'm not advocating giving up any of our civil liberties. The cost of a little safety for liberty is a bargain I'm willing to make. It's part of living in a free society. And I frankly think America would be better off if ownership of most guns was illegal. But it's easy for us to be dismissive of rights that aren't personally important to us, but much more difficult to give up those that we hold dear...even to save lives.
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Old 11-25-2017, 03:26 PM   #758
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. And I frankly think America would be better off if ownership of most guns was illegal. But it's easy for us to be dismissive of rights that aren't personally important to us, but much more difficult to give up those that we hold dear...even to save lives.
Of course it's the hardest thing politically to take away something that people are used to. But it also comes down to sheer selfishness - if we know we could save lives by taking guns away (and we have plenty of proof of what happens in western democracies with radically different gun laws), and you personally don't want to budge on your right to have a gun, then you are selfish and you are valuing your personal right over the lives of other people. How else to describe that but selfishness?
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Old 11-25-2017, 04:17 PM   #759
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Well yes perhaps it is selfish. Human beings are selfish about the things they've grown accustomed to having. Though I'm sure there are people who don't own guns who nonetheless respect it is a right in the abstract.

And again, the same question could be asked about your personal liberties...is zealously guarding your privacy, and right to be free from unreasonable search and seizure more important than the lives of people? In the West in particular we value our personal freedoms and civil liberties, even if that freedom opens us up to violence and costs lives. Are we being selfish in putting those values above human life?

You and I are probably happy to have our neighbor give up his guns so we call all be safer from gun violence. Are we happy to give up, say, our personal privacy on our electronic devices to make it easier for the government to catch terrorists? Or child predators?

Probably not, and I imagine the gun owners feel the same way about their weapons. I don't agree with them (and I think the fourth amendment is more vital than the second), but I understand it.
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Old 11-25-2017, 08:53 PM   #760
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You and I are probably happy to have our neighbor give up his guns so we call all be safer from gun violence. Are we happy to give up, say, our personal privacy on our electronic devices to make it easier for the government to catch terrorists? Or child predators?

Probably not, and I imagine the gun owners feel the same way about their weapons. I don't agree with them (and I think the fourth amendment is more vital than the second), but I understand it.
Our right to privacy and expectation of privacy under the law are infinitely more restricted than gun ownership rights in the US.

Frankly if gun ownership was treated the same way, it would be an enormous step forward.

And yes, I don't believe that I have an unlimited and unrestrained right to privacy. I don't expect it from my employer, I don't expect it in an academic setting, hell I don't even expect it totally in a medical setting. I do not complain about those sacrifices. But gun owners hold their rights as absolute - unlike car owners, they do not have to be licenced and insured, nor do they have to pass any sort of state-mandated testing. We even treat smokers much more harshly and impose all sorts of restrictions on where they can smoke - not in restaurants, not in bars, not on patios, not within x feet of the entrance of a commercial building, etc. But in well more than half of America you can open carry a gun anywhere, without a licence or permit - on a playground, into a Starbucks, a grocery store.

So no, I don't agree with your analogy here, though I understand what you are trying to do. But the facts simply do not match your premise, because the curtailment of rights on essentially every component of our personal lives exists and is even readily accepted...except gun ownership in America, which is the golden calf that cannot be touched.
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