Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2 - Page 30 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 10-04-2017, 02:38 AM   #581
Refugee
 
kiwilad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Malmsbury Villa
Posts: 1,474
Local Time: 08:22 PM
I read these posts by informed and concerned and educated Americans and find myself wondering if maybe it is all too hard. I know the Australia exampke worked, but there were very different contexts at play there than there are in the US re gun control.

And yet, America prides itself on the free market, on capitalism. And roughly 55% of the country is left of centre. That's a lot of people. A lot of customers for firearms manufacturers.

So you think back to Lennon pissing off the Christians who then burnt their Beatles records. In the renaissance crowds of people burnt books as a response to supposed heresy.

If 55% of Americans made a public display of trashing their guns, and pledged never to buy any others, surely that would have an effect. Like a catastrophic collapse of the firearm market.

For manufacturers amd retailers to coax that market back there'd have to be enough changes to placate the market. Perhaps the agreement that automatic of semi automatic weapons will no longer be sold etc etc.

There's a million holes i my example but the point is, I'm struck by how many American friends hate current US gun laws, yet still own guns.

Ok you want to defend yourself. But really, what are the odds of actually needing your personal firearm for self defense, versus being caught in the crossfire of a mass shooting?
__________________

kiwilad is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 02:50 AM   #582
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,453
Local Time: 03:22 AM
I mean if you ask me, Sanders had a good grasp of guns in the US and reality. However, he didn't have the guts to drive into it more.

Sounds ridiculous, but guns needs its MLK. It needs a loud leader - but someone willing to take a risk. Someone who can identify the problem, reason with the opposition, and pose a solution. Politicians need to step up and put their careers on the line, if you ask me.
__________________

LuckyNumber7 is online now  
Old 10-04-2017, 03:06 AM   #583
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 20,720
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwilad View Post
If 55% of Americans made a public display of trashing their guns, and pledged never to buy any others, surely that would have an effect. Like a catastrophic collapse of the firearm market.
I like this idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwilad View Post
Ok you want to defend yourself. But really, what are the odds of actually needing your personal firearm for self defense, versus being caught in the crossfire of a mass shooting?
Especially since people who own guns are generally more likely to be shot, or have a loved one get shot, with the very same guns they claim to keep for defense. And they're often not shot by some random intruder, either. It's either an accidental shooting, or somebody they already know, and who knows where they keep their guns, intentionally shoots them as a result of some dispute. People never stop to think about that stuff.

I remember seeing a story on TV once about a teenage boy who came from a family that owned many guns. The boy himself even had a gun of his own, though his parents kept the bullets for said gun in their room instead of his.

When the boy was laid up at home as a result of a skiing injury, he'd spent his time playing violent video games. His parents were concerned about his interest in the games and took them away, and apparently this fueled some tension in the family* for a while afterward as a result. Some time after the boy had healed up, one night, when his parents were sitting in their living room, he came in with his fully loaded gun and shot them, killing his mom in the process. And what do you suppose his dad, and the episode at large, blamed his violent outburst and focused most heavily on afterwards?

If you said the video games, congratulations, you're right. Nobody in that show even once bothered to consider or talk about the fact that THE FAMILY OWNED GUNS AND THE SON HAD EASY ACCESS TO THEM was the real problem. Or discuss how nonsensical it was that the parents wanted to take away their son's video games, but saw nothing wrong with him keeping an actual gun in his bedroom. The whole thing just drove me absolutely bonkers.

*(so the episode says, anyway. Frankly, if a kid decides to shoot his parents as a solution to his problems with them, I'm inclined to believe there were likely a lot of issues lurking for quite some time. But yeah.)

Speaking for myself, I hate guns. They terrify me, and I have absolutely no desire to ever learn to use one, let alone own one. Honestly, I would be incredibly happy if I woke up tomorrow and found out guns were no longer a thing at all.
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:45 AM   #584
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 03:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
I mean if you ask me, Sanders had a good grasp of guns in the US and reality. However, he didn't have the guts to drive into it more.

Sounds ridiculous, but guns needs its MLK. It needs a loud leader - but someone willing to take a risk. Someone who can identify the problem, reason with the opposition, and pose a solution. Politicians need to step up and put their careers on the line, if you ask me.
That's exactly it. What gun control needs is somebody like Warren Buffet with almost unlimited funds to make that their life mission. And you treat gun control the same way you treated tobacco starting in the 60s with the first surgeon general's report, but that didn't really gain steam until 2 decades later. You absolutely can shape public opinion, but it has to be concerted and relentless.
anitram is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 09:11 AM   #585
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
YBORCITY's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:22 AM
I often wonder what the other country's of the world must think of the US? I don't begrudge any foreigner that looks at us with disdain and utter confusion. I'm not a left leaning person in fact I think a person should be able to protect themselves, their family and their property. I just can't wrap my head around why it's allowed that civilians have this type of fire power or even would want this much fore power.
YBORCITY is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 11:34 AM   #586
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,192
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
That's exactly it. What gun control needs is somebody like Warren Buffet with almost unlimited funds to make that their life mission. And you treat gun control the same way you treated tobacco starting in the 60s with the first surgeon general's report, but that didn't really gain steam until 2 decades later. You absolutely can shape public opinion, but it has to be concerted and relentless.
Mike Bloomberg has stepped up to the plate big time on the gun issue, and devoted large sums of his own personal fortune towards gun issues.

And it still hasn't made a serious dent, because the people who actually disagree with him would never listen to Mike Bloomberg, anyways.

The change needs to come from the right.

And the only way to do that is through campaign finance reform to stop NRA money from flowing to politicians, or a conservative corporation standing up and throwing large sums of money at the cause so that moderate to semi-moderate Republicans don't need to rely on NRA money.

That's what it comes down to. If you asked large numbers of even Republican congresspersons in private, I'm sure you would find enough who would like to vote for sane, logical gun reform... but they won't, because they're terrified of the money that the NRA will either take away from them and/or throw at an opposing Republican candidate in the primaries.

Another possible solution might be term limits, as you may be able to find more congresspersons willing to have a fucking backbone if they weren't worried about re-election (see John McCain's new found lack of giving a shit).
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 03:16 PM   #587
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwilad View Post
If 55% of Americans made a public display of trashing their guns, and pledged never to buy any others, surely that would have an effect. Like a catastrophic collapse of the firearm market.
According to this (June 2016), only about 36% of Americans own guns, or live with someone who does.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.5d69c40a369b

It's in the news a lot, and our country's gun obsession is (rightfully) alarming to much of the world, but it seems like there's a misconception that most of the US owns guns.
corianderstem is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 04:09 PM   #588
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
YBORCITY's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:22 AM
What's also puzzling that most of the people who wrap themselves in the 2nd amendment argument also is dead set against abortion rights... Which makes me think that fetus' should have more rights than 58 concert goers in Vegas, 13 students in Columbine, 27 angels in Newtown.....
YBORCITY is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 04:32 PM   #589
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Rum Tum Tugger is a Curious Cat...
Posts: 6,663
Local Time: 08:22 AM
The reason nothing even happens after one of these tragedies is that politicians in both parties aren't being honest about the terms of the debate. Republicans aren't being honest with their brain dead ideas about an armed citizenry being safer and "guns don't kill people, people kill people" rubbish. And Democrats aren't being honest when they trot out the rote suggestion that "common sense gun control" measures are going to stop or even significantly reduce gun violence. The reason the Republicans lie is because they're afraid of the NRA; the reason Democrats lie is because if they spoke out loud what really needs to happen (what the honest ones know needs to happen) they'd never win another election.

I’m all for sensible gun control legislation. Background checks, waiting periods, gun free zones, etc. Everything everyone is talking about when it comes to these kind of “common sense” reforms. By all means. It’s absurd that the US doesn’t have that kind of no-brainer regulation. It should be something all sane people can agree on. It’s to the NRA’s (which was once a responsible organisation for genuine enthusiasts) shame that they reflexively block even modest gun regulation. And they do, every single time.

That said, in my opinion, the gun violence problem is so pervasive in the US that none of these half measures are going to make much difference. They’re certainly not going to stop kind the mass shootings that typically are the catalyst for increased gun control legislation. If you want to make a real difference you have to get the guns, all of them pretty much. The hand guns and the automatic weapons. Do what we do in the UK and what they did in Australia and then you’ll have a lot less people dying. Well, people will still die, but not of gunshot wounds.

And make no mistake, THAT's what it's going to take. All this other stuff is just half measures. Of course, to get the guns you first have to do something about the Second Amendment. Or at least get a SCOTUS that interprets it differently.
Nick66 is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 05:16 PM   #590
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 12:22 AM
That pretty much sums up where my feelings lie these days.
corianderstem is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 05:24 PM   #591
ONE
love, blood, life
 
namkcuR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Kettering, Ohio
Posts: 10,738
Local Time: 02:22 AM
It's fine to say that, but I just don't see how it can ever happen. It's impossible. Look how people react to just to background checks and waiting periods, and imagine how they'd react if the government actually tried to take the guns.

If we're talking about buybacks, you might get some people to take the money, but not too many, and not nearly enough to make a difference.

If we're talking about mandatory confiscation where agents literally go and force everyone to give up their guns, it's more probable to start the second Civil War than anything else. I just came from a comment section on an article about what confiscation might look like in the U.S. and a pro-gun person said something along the lines of, it would result in a lot of dead agents.

Like I said, I just don't see how it can ever happen.
namkcuR is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 05:52 PM   #592
Blue Crack Distributor
 
corianderstem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 64,498
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Neither can I, that's why it feels so helpless.
corianderstem is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 07:15 PM   #593
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 18,918
Local Time: 03:22 AM
If you started by banning further sales + offering buyback, that would at least stem the tide. You can figure out later what to do with the existing guns but I don't understand why you have to tolerate this lunatic buying 33 guns in a single year on a going forward basis.
anitram is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 07:54 PM   #594
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Hewson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Your own private Idaho
Posts: 32,052
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwilad View Post

And yet, America prides itself on the free market, on capitalism. And roughly 55% of the country is left of centre. That's a lot of people. A lot of customers for firearms manufacturers.

So you think back to Lennon pissing off the Christians who then burnt their Beatles records. In the renaissance crowds of people burnt books as a response to supposed heresy.

If 55% of Americans made a public display of trashing their guns, and pledged never to buy any others, surely that would have an effect. Like a catastrophic collapse of the firearm market.

For manufacturers amd retailers to coax that market back there'd have to be enough changes to placate the market. Perhaps the agreement that automatic of semi automatic weapons will no longer be sold etc etc.

There's a million holes i my example ?
I'll agree with the million holes portion.

As Cori points out, 36% own guns or live with a gun owner. I'd venture that at least 80% of that 36% is right leaning or at least moderate.

You make it sound like everyone in America, including the 55% you note as left leaning are gun owners.
Its way off base.

The vast majority of that 55% do not own guns.

Change your avatar.
Hewson is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:15 PM   #595
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
YBORCITY's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:22 AM
How could the NRA hold such sway? I completely understand it's by lining the pockets of legislatures but at some point someone has to stand up and say this is beyond gone on long enough.... But unfortunately I don't think there's some one with the fortitude to do this ... But worse it might be too late... Its the old adage how do you get the toothpaste back in the tube... We're so far down this road is there any solution?
YBORCITY is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 08:44 PM   #596
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,453
Local Time: 03:22 AM
Counterculture.
LuckyNumber7 is online now  
Old 10-04-2017, 09:44 PM   #597
Blue Crack Distributor
 
Headache in a Suitcase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: DC
Posts: 68,192
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YBORCITY View Post
How could the NRA hold such sway? I completely understand it's by lining the pockets of legislatures but at some point someone has to stand up and say this is beyond gone on long enough.... But unfortunately I don't think there's some one with the fortitude to do this ... But worse it might be too late... Its the old adage how do you get the toothpaste back in the tube... We're so far down this road is there any solution?
Straight cash homey.

It really is that simple.

And that sad.
Headache in a Suitcase is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 09:45 PM   #598
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 41,232
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by YBORCITY View Post
How could the NRA hold such sway? I completely understand it's by lining the pockets of legislatures but at some point someone has to stand up and say this is beyond gone on long enough.... But unfortunately I don't think there's some one with the fortitude to do this ... But worse it might be too late... Its the old adage how do you get the toothpaste back in the tube... We're so far down this road is there any solution?


$$$ war is very profitable.

The right is very easily manipulated(both extremes are). The first version of the modern tea party was started by Ron Paul and funded by big tobacco, they needed an anti-science crowd to rail against the government and claim there is no link between smoking and cancer. There are still remnants of that movement among us. Money buys propaganda, propaganda feeds the naive, and the naive give the propagandist back tenfold.

Sounds almost conspiracy like, right? Yet it's not. The NRA is doing the same thing as we speak. Gun purchases went up this week. Terror drives sales.
BVS is offline  
Old 10-04-2017, 09:51 PM   #599
Blue Crack Addict
 
LuckyNumber7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 18,453
Local Time: 03:22 AM
I think guns go further than tobacco etc.

There's something written into the culture at this point, given that it's "American" with the 2nd amendment.

But the motion to kill the culture needs to come from the top down. I know someone suggested some gun-burning display or what have you. That sort of bottom up motion will be laughed at by gun supporters. I think you just need to cut the head off the snake. Go for a full ban on anything that's not a sidearm and make people really pissed off.
LuckyNumber7 is online now  
Old 10-04-2017, 10:42 PM   #600
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
YBORCITY's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: FLA
Posts: 5,384
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Immediately it's argued that the government wants to take the guns sway... You the right to hear arms and such and please I don't want to come off as a far leftist... Its my belief everyone has a right to protect themselves and property ... Its just how does anyone justify or argue it's ok for a civilian to have access to these type of weapons and now i just saw this guy has these after market parts thAt make a semi automatic into a virtual full automatic... In what society is this ok?
__________________

YBORCITY is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com
×