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Old 10-03-2017, 12:32 AM   #561
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Does my personal criticism of America have no validity, or does the mere fact I'm criticising America cause it to lose all validity to an American?
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Old 10-03-2017, 02:19 AM   #562
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Does my personal criticism of America have no validity, or does the mere fact I'm criticising America cause it to lose all validity to an American?


Really too tired to read every single post, but if you're criticizing "America," it's like you're not reading this thread and the Americans in it. There's obviously two types of Americans on this issue.

Is one wrong for a criticism like this? Maybe generalizing, but probably not wrong. Is one helping? Absolutely not. It's a nose up choice of words.
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Old 10-03-2017, 02:44 AM   #563
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This forum is decidedly left leaning and this particular thread tends to condemn and express sadness towards any attack. I can read just fine, thanks.

But the fact that there are two obvious types of Americans on either side of this issue doesn't change the fact that it is still, hundreds of incidents in the wake of Sandy Hook and possibly thousands since Columbine, a major issue yet to be resolved. And why is that? The issue appears to be rooted in the American Constitution and Bill of Rights which is viewed as sacrosanct enough that changing it is not an option. A pity.

I also don't see the problem in generalising 'America' based on its own constitution and legally elected officials. What would be more appropriate? Every country has an identity. We can condemn Britain for the Brexit vote and praise France and Germany for their recent elections, despite people voting to Remain and for far right parties.

I also didn't realise that every post we made here had to help. Maybe by Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 5 everyone else posting in here will have made a difference.

I'm not sure what you meant with that 'nose up' typo, but I'll just say that as an onlooker to the mass shootings in the US, it's exasperating to watch the complete lack of action. But apparently expressing that sentiment can get even some anti-gun Americans defensive and indignant.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:15 AM   #564
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When you consider the countries doing the finger wagging already have functional national health services and working gun legislation, it kind of makes you guys look like extremely slow learners. As a nation, it is time to put aside the pride, hurt feelings and tatty constitution, and make some real fucking changes.
Precisely, and your critiques are sharp - even if some of the American posters in here are getting a little too defensive. Yes, we all know that the US is a country with a complex history and society. Funnily enough, so is every other country. Our gun control, our healthcare, our labour laws, our environmental protections, and the like have all been hard won in the face of great challenges. We might just have learnt a few things along the way.

There may be many Americans fighting for these things, but it is necessary to accept that, at an institutional level, the US is currently defined and projected to the world as representing certain values or positions that are, put simply, retrograde and repugnant. These demand strident criticism, and those within America who desire change should be concurring with it, not silencing it and suggesting the debate can only be an internal one. When your country is as large and as powerful as America, your domestic issues have wider ramifications and will be subject to external scrutiny. And shouldn't an outside - and, generally, a more detached - perspective be welcomed?

Playing the "but your country has other problems" card is both specious and disingenuous. Plus, you know, we own it. If you want to condemn Australia for its Pacific gulags for asylum seekers, go for it, I will most likely agree 100%; I will particularly welcome your perspective if you have proposals for solutions, much like those of us from Australia can criticise US gun laws and point to our own highly successful laws as a better option if only Americans as a body politic could relax their obsession with the constitution for a minute. Similarly, if you want to condemn New Zealand for its current housing crisis or some of the stalled aspects of Treaty of Waitangi negotiations, please do. I have never seen an Aussie or Kiwi get defensive when a foreigner takes an interest in our politics and levels valid criticisms. Americans across the Internet and other media have made it an art.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:51 AM   #565
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Originally Posted by monkeyskin View Post
This forum is decidedly left leaning and this particular thread tends to condemn and express sadness towards any attack. I can read just fine, thanks.

There's a specific irony of you telling me you can read just fine, when I never said you couldn't.


Quote:

But the fact that there are two obvious types of Americans on either side of this issue doesn't change the fact that it is still, hundreds of incidents in the wake of Sandy Hook and possibly thousands since Columbine, a major issue yet to be resolved. And why is that? The issue appears to be rooted in the American Constitution and Bill of Rights which is viewed as sacrosanct enough that changing it is not an option. A pity.

And we don't disagree that there's a huge problem. You don't have to declare this in this post right here.

Quote:

I also don't see the problem in generalising 'America' based on its own constitution and legally elected officials. What would be more appropriate? Every country has an identity. We can condemn Britain for the Brexit vote and praise France and Germany for their recent elections, despite people voting to Remain and for far right parties.

Who is "we?" As an American who lives in Britain, I don't criticize "Britain" when about half of the voting population didn't want that. That's so counterproductive. Treat a bunch of innocent people like they're part of the problem for what???


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I also didn't realise that every post we made here had to help. Maybe by Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 5 everyone else posting in here will have made a difference.
You're being a dick.
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Old 10-03-2017, 04:51 AM   #566
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Treat a bunch of innocent people like they're part of the problem for what???
There's a reason why white people say things like (and I'll make this specific to Australia) "all the stuff with the Aboriginals happened hundreds of years ago, can't we just drop it and all move on? I didn't commit the crime, why should I do the time?"

It's classic logical fallacy. You think you win because you make the argument go away because technically, it's very true; but if we choose that as our standard than Aboriginal peoples will be consigned to poverty forever.

We are innocent, we didn't commit the crime, we all largely agree here... but if we take the path of getting pissy on criticism and not doing anything because we're personally innocent, then I'd argue we aren't really taking any positive action.
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:09 AM   #567
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

First off, co-sign everything Ax wrote far more succinctly than I've been able to.

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Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
There's a specific irony of you telling me you can read just fine, when I never said you couldn't.
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Originally Posted by LuckyNumber7 View Post
Really too tired to read every single post, but if you're criticizing "America," it's like you're not reading this thread and the Americans in it.

I don't know if this is just fancy double talking, simile using debate tactic, but I'll rephrase. I have read this thread.

Quote:
And we don't disagree that there's a huge problem. You don't have to declare this in this post right here.
It's great that we don't disagree here. I'll keep declaring it while it's an ongoing issue though.

Quote:
Who is "we?" As an American who lives in Britain, I don't criticize "Britain" when about half of the voting population didn't want that. That's so counterproductive. Treat a bunch of innocent people like they're part of the problem for what???
Fine, "one" can condemn the Brexit vote if we're going to be pedantic. It was a national referendum that Britain voted for. It didn't have to be unanimous but it has results in UK representatives currently trying to negotiate with the EU for an exit. I have friends who voted against it and family who voted for it, and I'm ashamed that the country overall voted for it, especially as my home town was among the stronger Leavers.

Quote:
You're being a dick.
Mate, I'd love to be proved wrong, I really would. I just don't see the necessary change happening when even people here are getting defensive over the issue. I also don't get why the charge of an unhelpful post was only levelled at me. And pretty rich coming from you calling me a dick, when you didn't even show me the respect of reading all my posts before wading in with your two cents. Tired at 5pm? Jet lag must be killing you, but not enough for you to try and win the nearest argument.

Look, yes there are people in America who are trying to put an end to this rampant gun violence. But so far very little has happened, and what has been achieved is nowhere near the extents to which other countries went to in order to quash it for good. This level of gun violence in America is a uniquely American problem largely caused by American values and outdated articles. When I say America is a failure to live up to its high ambitions, I don't mean to personally denigrate every last citizen, but the system in which they all live. Harsh, but there is more emphasis on keeping instruments of death in everyone's hands than healing them.
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:04 AM   #568
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There's a reason why white people say things like (and I'll make this specific to Australia) "all the stuff with the Aboriginals happened hundreds of years ago, can't we just drop it and all move on? I didn't commit the crime, why should I do the time?"



It's classic logical fallacy. You think you win because you make the argument go away because technically, it's very true; but if we choose that as our standard than Aboriginal peoples will be consigned to poverty forever.



We are innocent, we didn't commit the crime, we all largely agree here... but if we take the path of getting pissy on criticism and not doing anything because we're personally innocent, then I'd argue we aren't really taking any positive action.

I'm not saying anything of the sort, though. At all.

I'm saying preaching not to but at the choir isn't helpful. It's not a logical fallacy - I'm absolutely not simply making the problem go away.

Personally I feel disgusted by gun violence. I feel victimized in the past by gun violence. I had a gun pulled on me when I was 11 for yelling at a guy who flicked my friend off. Christina Grimmie was murdered literally next door to me the night before my birthday while I was there. I frequently forget that horror if only because of the nightmare that still haunts me was Pulse, just one day later and right down the road.

I'm definitely not the only one who can share stories like these. People are directly and indirectly impacted by this all the time.

Simply taking some blanket and saying "oh Americans _______" or "Australians ________" fill in your generalization... it's not helping. It has no use. All I hear is a nationalist comparison of why someone is better than the other.
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:20 AM   #569
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I don't know if this is just fancy double talking, simile using debate tactic, but I'll rephrase. I have read this thread.

It's not a debate tactic. Your first comment seemed to suggest I was insulting you. I wasn't. I was merely saying I don't think you are listening to the voices and just how frustrated/disgusted/hurt/you name it that people are right now.






Quote:
Mate, I'd love to be proved wrong, I really would. I just don't see the necessary change happening when even people here are getting defensive over the issue. I also don't get why the charge of an unhelpful post was only levelled at me.

And from a nation of over 300 million people, I guarantee you that there are so many tens to hundreds of millions of disgusted people who don't understand how change hasn't been made. Victims whose voices don't get heard. Advocates whose words get ignored. Voters who feel the political system neglects their real identity. People would get defensive if no matter how much they scream in a shitty vacuum, they don't make a sound, and you wag your finger at a collective "you people."

Sure, the folks who say "if nothing changed after sandy hook, nothing ever will" are unhelpful. Someone already made that point standing against that.



Quote:

And pretty rich coming from you calling me a dick, when you didn't even show me the respect of reading all my posts before wading in with your two cents. Tired at 5pm? Jet lag must be killing you, but not enough for you to try and win the nearest argument.
You feel disrespected because I didn't read pages of arguments and debate? Really, disrespected? I'm enjoying Australia for the first time. I'm also incredibly sick right now. I'm also roaming on my data. So I wanted to comment...I gave a heads up that I hadn't read it all. It's not disrespectful. But you made a comment suggesting that everyone in here was just a giant stereotype or meme of people who talk and don't do shit about it - what would you do?
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Old 10-03-2017, 09:50 AM   #570
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And I went back and read it all and I find myself having used the exact same words as Irvine (without having read his full post). Something about wagging fingers and you people.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:07 PM   #571
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‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens - The Onion - America's Finest News Source
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:19 PM   #572
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Like that woman said on Twitter yesterday, the GOP maintains that banning guns won't end gun violence.

But already today they announced yet another bill to ban abortion after the 20th week. Because banning abortion will end abortions.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:30 PM   #573
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Gotta protect those unborn kids in the womb, but when they're gunned down in an elementary school? Eh, nothing we can do to stop that.

To say nothing of how the only person directly impacted by an abortion is the woman herself. A nutjob with a gun going on a shooting spree, meanwhile, puts society at large in danger.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:33 PM   #574
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I think it's laughable using the 2nd amendment argument and the right to bear arms defense. I would think that back when the founding fathers thought of this the most powerful weapon personal weapon had to be reloaded and a person would be probably able to get 2 shots off in a matter of minutes.... We have to be smarter than this, there's no way a civilian should have access to this type of weapon.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:41 PM   #575
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Exactly.

And back then, the government and the civilians were a little more evenly matched in terms of weaponry. Anyone who honestly thinks their guns will beat a government that currently has nukes and drones and other major military weaponry at its disposal nowadays is either incredibly naive or just plain stupid.

I also find it incredibly disturbing that some people seem so eager to get into an all out war with our federal government, and think taking up arms against them is the best way to solve any issues we have with them. Chill out a little and settle down, guys.
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Old 10-03-2017, 03:45 PM   #576
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:20 PM   #577
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As a pro-gun-control American, I feel like Irvine and LuckyNumber were being a bit overly defensive with regards to monkeyskin and Axver's comments.

However, given the polarized nature of this issue here, the incredible number of firearms already in circulation and owned, and the role of money and media in politics, it's a very, very difficult and frustrating issue to navigate.

First off, the constitution and the second amendment were repeatedly bought up. That's counter-productive to the cause of gun control in the U.S. To be clear, if we're talking about getting rid of the amendment altogether, the way you repeal a constitutional amendment is by adding another constitutional amendment that basically says the amendment in question is no longer in effect. In order to pass an amendment to the constitution, you need a two-thirds majority in both houses of our Congress. You can't get two-thirds of both houses of our Congress to agree that the sky is blue or that two plus two equals five, much less on something this politically volatile. It's politically impossible, and for this reason, nobody, even those who theoretically have no use for the amendment and would like to see it gone, is ever going to waste any time arguing for it as an actual possibility in the real world. What pro-gun-control people argue for is legislation that puts restrictions on said amendment via law, without touching the constitution.

Second, the NRA, which I believe is correctly labeled a terrorist organization, and other pro-gun groups, not to mention pro-gun conservative politicans, tend to twist any support of politican x for sensible gun control legislation y into an authoritarian desire of politician x to come and take your guns. So if, say, a group of senators support legislation to have stricter background checks, limit ammunition size, have waiting periods before you can purchase a gun, and create a national gun registry, the NRA, other gun groups, and, if those senators are currently running for office, their conservative opponents, will run political ads with doom-and-gloom music and a low voice-over saying, for example, 'Senator x wants to take your guns and prevent you from being able to protect yourself. Defend your freedom, vote against Senator x'. Stuff like that.

And what happens is there are enough uninformed and ignorant people out there that will buy it. So it's hard for even centrist Democrats, particularly if they represent a red state, to support this kind of legislation. That's why it's more often only the further left Democrats that openly support it. Hell, even self-admitted socialist Bernie Sanders wasn't as aggressive about gun control during his presidential campaign as some on the left would have liked because he represents Vermont, a state with a large rural population who likes their guns.

Third, what's not talked about enough is that there are big corporate interests that are against gun control. That's what the NRA is. It's just a lobbying arm of the corporate interests that generate their profit from the manufacture and sale of firearms and ammunition. The NRA does not care about Joe Gun Owner. They work for big corporations. It's not really much different from oil companies doing all they can to slow down the progress of green and renewable energies in order to protect their business. We live in a plutocracy.

Fourth, there are a lot of gun owners, not the gun-toting redneck types, but just regular people like you and me, except who own guns, who genuinely don't think the kind of gun-control legislation the left pines for will actually make all that much of a difference(given all the firearms and ammunition already out there) while at the same time imposing unfair limitations on law-abiding gun-owners who have no intention of doing anything bad. Of course, the counter is that if there's any chance it will make any difference at all, you do it.

Fifth, a lot of anti-gun-control people are also of the type that have a big fixation on freedom and liberty. They see limitation of gun rights as an infringement of everyone's freedom as a whole, and that if you allow the government to keep chipping away at that freedom, eventually none will be left.

Sixth, and perhaps this ties into #5 above, there seems to be a rather nasty strain of paranoia in the right-wing. You can't buy into Alex Jones and the like if you're not a little paranoid already. You can't believe political ads the NRA puts out saying Senator x wants to come and take your guns if you're not a little paranoid already. You can't walk into coffee shops with a machine gun around your waist as if you're part of a militia if you're not a little paranoid already. This could be a factor as well.

It's just a very volatile, emotional, polarizing issue complicated by ignorance, fear, paranoia, and downright immoral behavior on the part of the NRA and the like.

I just wrote a lot, and I don't know if I said anything everyone doesn't already know, but I had to get it out.
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:29 PM   #578
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Old 10-03-2017, 07:47 PM   #579
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First off, the constitution and the second amendment were repeatedly bought up. That's counter-productive to the cause of gun control in the U.S. To be clear, if we're talking about getting rid of the amendment altogether, the way you repeal a constitutional amendment is by adding another constitutional amendment that basically says the amendment in question is no longer in effect. In order to pass an amendment to the constitution, you need a two-thirds majority in both houses of our Congress. You can't get two-thirds of both houses of our Congress to agree that the sky is blue or that two plus two equals five, much less on something this politically volatile. It's politically impossible, and for this reason, nobody, even those who theoretically have no use for the amendment and would like to see it gone, is ever going to waste any time arguing for it as an actual possibility in the real world. What pro-gun-control people argue for is legislation that puts restrictions on said amendment via law, without touching the constitution.
There is of course another, much more reasonable, way out of this which is the correct interpretation and application of the second amendment. But instead the SCOTUS is a political body and not a judicial one, it is the most political judicial body in the entire free world, by a wide margin. They are as massive a problem as the NRA, etc.

Ultimately this is mostly on the backs of the Republican voters, who staunchly refuse to have a come to Jesus moment on this. If even half of them stood up and said enough is enough, combined with the gun control views of the left you can bet you'd see legislative changes post haste. But no, they're useless on this issue just like almost every other.
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Old 10-03-2017, 08:09 PM   #580
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The second amendement is stupid and archaic. The second amendement is also ingrained in culture in the US.

Many who defend it frequently make a constitutionalist argument. Constitutionalist arguments are bad. Logical arguments are good. Constitutionalists treat forefathers like they're godly infallible beings who could predict the exact future.

How to uproot that culture? I don't know. Fantastic question. Probably slowly.
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