Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

[Danny Boy]

Just read the transcript of Trump's speech. Obviously someone convinced him to stick to the script this time. Still empty platitudes, though.

 

[corianderstem]

I saw the pic of this murdering shitbird with the "communist" shirt, and it made me sad.

A good friend of mine has that same shirt, and I always love seeing him wear it because it makes me laugh. Communist party - one has a party hat on, one has a lampshade on his head, they're all drunk, ha ha.

Not anymore. Thanks for killing 17 kids AND also ruining that funny shirt.


Part of a white supremacist group. Cool. Also allegedly was violent towards his ex-girlfriend. Gee, that's so hard to believe.

Edit: I guess there's some skepticism of the "confirmed part of white supremacist group" bit, but whatever. 17 kids are still dead.

 

[PhilsFan]

If she said that, then it's pretty stupid.

You'll probably disagree with this in general, as someone far to my left - and that's okay. However, on a general note, I actually think that McArdle is a pretty good person to read if you're left-of-center, as a pretty intelligent right-of-center voice. I've been reading her on Bloomberg View for years for that reason. She's no GOP partisan - she comes out very negatively against Trump, and falls closer to Dems on some issues, such as climate change and a lot of social stuff. And a lot of her commentary is not so much anti-left wing economic policy as much as pointing out legitimate tradeoffs in left-right economic debates. Obviously, I disagree with her on plenty of things, and I think that some of what she says is not only wrong but clearly so (e.g. the aforementioned gun thing).

However, given the drivel that most of the American right-wing spits out nowadays, I think she's a pretty good voice for understanding generally-conservative arguments. Maybe you [general usage of the word "you"] don't want to do that, and that's okay. But, in my mind, the American right isn't going away any time soon, and I'd rather read someone like McArdle than, like, watch Fox News, in order to have an idea of conservative thought. And hopefully be challenged by it, even if I don't normally come to agree with it. Full disclosure that I consider myself moderate to center-left, but fall into the camp of never even considering voting for Republicans due to their general disconnect from reality.

I strongly urge you to read this, which I think is an excellent and full summary of McArdle.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/artic...dle-fails-upwards-again-this-time-to-the.html

There is one consistent through line in McArdle's work, and that is that she does not consider human lives to be of significant value. It's in her comments about school shootings, her vocal support for the Iraq War, her comments about Grenfell, everything. She is a true low life, and a much better illustration of the modern Republican Party than any commentary about rednecks or poor rural voters.

 

[PhilsFan]

I saw the pic of this murdering shitbird with the "communist" shirt, and it made me sad.

A good friend of mine has that same shirt, and I always love seeing him wear it because it makes me laugh. Communist party - one has a party hat on, one has a lampshade on his head, they're all drunk, ha ha.

Not anymore. Thanks for killing 17 kids AND also ruining that funny shirt.

As I said on the last page, that is not Nikolas Cruz wearing that shirt. That is the picture that InfoWars circulated yesterday before the dust settled to convince people it was Antifa-related. This tweet thread is a good summary of what InfoWars has done:

[TWEET]964187511017869316[/TWEET]

 

[corianderstem]

Thank you. Obviously I'd only skimmed the previous page.

 

[PhilsFan]

It's been barely 24 hours, a lot has happened in a short amount of time.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Love that quote you shared from Solnit, Irvine. Completely agree with her sentiments.

 

[Nick66]

upon learning that the shooter wears MAGA hats and was a member of a white supremacist group, Rebecca Solnit posted this on FB:

Also, another lively discussion on Aruna d'Souza's post prompted me to say: I guess what strikes me over and over is the entitlement to take another person's (or many people's) life, and though I don't have answers to how that correlates to the majority of mass shooters being white men (and all but one or two being men), it raises questions I hope we keep discussing. It's also striking to me that in theory guns are available to all of us but in practice the people whose identities are most wrapped up in them and who use them this way are white men and how now there's a whole culture built around it. Or maybe there's an old culture that's now expanding and growing more vicious.....

Yes, that's just what America need right now..."raising questions" about the correlation between gun violence and race. That's what Rebecca Solnit wants us to discuss. What could go wrong?

As if the discussion about guns alone wasn't incendiary enough. Gun and race. Yeah, I'm sure that would be a very productive discussion.

 

[Irvine511]

Gender, too. Don’t forget that. And you’re right, there are the ONLY things we should be discussing. That’s clearly the intention of the post.

These are virtually all men, and many of them are men who feel they are entitled to murder people because women won’t fuck them. (ie, that Santa Barbara shooting from a couple years ago).

 

[Nick66]

I just think guns are hard enough without injecting race into it. As soon as you do that, everyone runs to their corners and everything gets shut down. Someone on the left points out that most mass shooters are white males, then righty starts going on about homicide by hand gun statistics, gang violence, "black on black crime" and eventually someone will say "CHICAGO!". That's a dead end conversation.

As far as gender goes, everyone already knows men do most of the stupid violent shit in this world. And too much of it is directed at women.

 

[Irvine511]

next thing you know, we're going to be talking about toxic masculinity. and then it's just feminist marxists and black panthers from there.

 

[Nick66]

....and then it's dogs & cats sleeping together, mass hysteria!

 

[kiwilad]

I don't want to take away from the gun discussion, but there is something else going on here which is terrifying - the drive for notoriety. Such crimes are massively reported/filmed/discussed. If you're cruel and insane and want notoriety, this seems to be the best way to achieve that.
Are these people waking up in the morning and deciding they really hate children, and the best thing to do is to kill children? I doubt it. I think they're thinking only about themselves, and their psychotic sense of self grandeur. Where they are the star, they are the protagonist, they are the hero/antihero/lead actor. And the rest of the world doesn't treat them that way. And they can't handle it.

A lot of aspects of the computer revolution 35 years ago have kinda pandered to these personality traits. Social media and gaming are the two I'm thinking of. That ability to surround yourself with what feels like a big, real 'reality' - all the while becoming more and more angry at the rest of the world which still treats you like a nothing.

Of course, guns the weapons causing the killing, and this is a gun thread, but I do wonder if there's something even deeper than that going on.

 

[Irvine511]

Of course, guns the weapons causing the killing, and this is a gun thread, but I do wonder if there's something even deeper than that going on.

i'm confused. are you saying we should think about more than one thing at a time?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I fully agree that's a factor, too, kiwilad, and your point about social media playing a role makes a lot of sense.

I think that notoriety and your comment about somebody needing to be "the hero" is what drives a lot of the "we need to just arm the good guys" people as well. The way they talk, they're treating this as though it were an action movie and they could ride in to save the day John Wayne-style.

 

[Irvine511]

The way they talk, they're treating this as though it were an action movie and they could ride in to save the day John Wayne-style.

this is what white heterosexual American men do, though. they save the day with their guns.

haven't you ever been to the movies? they are all capable of taking down shooters with their concealed weapons.

 

[Nick66]

I don't want to take away from the gun discussion, but there is something else going on here which is terrifying - the drive for notoriety. Such crimes are massively reported/filmed/discussed. If you're cruel and insane and want notoriety, this seems to be the best way to achieve that.
Are these people waking up in the morning and deciding they really hate children, and the best thing to do is to kill children? I doubt it. I think they're thinking only about themselves, and their psychotic sense of self grandeur. Where they are the star, they are the protagonist, they are the hero/antihero/lead actor. And the rest of the world doesn't treat them that way. And they can't handle it.

A lot of aspects of the computer revolution 35 years ago have kinda pandered to these personality traits. Social media and gaming are the two I'm thinking of. That ability to surround yourself with what feels like a big, real 'reality' - all the while becoming more and more angry at the rest of the world which still treats you like a nothing.

Of course, guns the weapons causing the killing, and this is a gun thread, but I do wonder if there's something even deeper than that going on.

Agree completely. And of course there's something deeper going on. Almost everyone in America has access to guns, but most people don't murder other human beings with them.

Just be careful....someone will accuse you of using the "mental health" meme and trying to distract from talking about guns.

this is what white heterosexual American men do, though. they save the day with their guns.

haven't you ever been to the movies? they are all capable of taking down shooters with their concealed weapons.

I don't know. Most movies these days they take down people with their super powers. Usually by slamming someone into a brick wall (and you'd be surprised how many different ways there are to do that!)

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

If anything is going to change this mess, to push back on the NRA money, it is kids taking videos of a massacre, or live-tweeting it. And pushing back on vacuous talking heads who tell us "won't you think about the guns???" in sickening political posts about how people shouldn't "use" a tragedy to talk about how to stop, or at least limit, tragedies.


There are some amazing kids out there, and a few became the equivalent of the war journalists who provided us with our first images from Vietnam and started to sway the living room. There were a lot of heroes and one lunatic in that situation, aided and abetted by a bunch of lunatics in DC.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

as for notoriety...in some cases, yes. But this kid tried to get away.

Honestly...I have always been surprised it took as long as it did for this to become normal in high schools. Lots of marginalized/mentally ill kids get bullied and harassed, leading to suicide. There was always just one small step, with the availability of guns in this country, to killing others before dying.

This one is a bit different...the killer who didn't kill himself.

 

[Wide Awake n AZ]

I fully agree that's a factor, too, kiwilad, and your point about social media playing a role makes a lot of sense.

I think that notoriety and your comment about somebody needing to be "the hero" is what drives a lot of the "we need to just arm the good guys" people as well. The way they talk, they're treating this as though it were an action movie and they could ride in to save the day John Wayne-style.

That shit is so frustrating. Yeah...arm all the teachers. Then the kid tosses a smoke bomb in a room, some firecrackers, and starts shooting. A bunch of "heroes" pull out guns and shoot the room up, because even weekend warriors can't hit shit in the fog of "war". Now we have 5 guns, confusion, and SWAT coming on site to shoot anything that looks like a gunman.

A fucking Tarrantino fever dream.

The "hero"...so fucking stupid.

 

[cobl04]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, but I'm fucking throwing them anyway. Fuck your sick, twisted, disgusting country.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I have a PDF about it, but it's too large to post here. But anyone interested can Google Extreme Risk Protection/Protective Order. Exists currently in CA, CT, and I believe two other states that I can't recall.

Other states are working on passing laws to allow these orders. There is a current bill in my state.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

That shit is so frustrating. Yeah...arm all the teachers. Then the kid tosses a smoke bomb in a room, some firecrackers, and starts shooting. A bunch of "heroes" pull out guns and shoot the room up, because even weekend warriors can't hit shit in the fog of "war". Now we have 5 guns, confusion, and SWAT coming on site to shoot anything that looks like a gunman.

A fucking Tarrantino fever dream.

The "hero"...so fucking stupid.

Exactly. The "let me get in there with my gun" people act like they're so sure of how they'd respond to something like this. They don't know shit and they need to stop.

The whole "arm the teachers" thing also pisses me off because it operates under the assumption that teachers couldn't pull something like this, that only students are capable of this kind of crime. I'd like to introduce those people to a professor named Amy Bishop:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Alabama_in_Huntsville_shooting#Shooter

There's also the fact that, given the stories we hear in the news sometimes about teachers hooking up with students, that could cause trouble if the teacher owned a gun and the relationship ended badly. And even if the teacher's responsible with their gun...what happens if a student gets a hold of it somehow when they go on their spree? What then?

People really need to think about this stuff before they go blurting out these stupid "solutions" and "suggestions".

 

[BVS]

Let’s take a moment to honor the sacrifice of our brave schoolchildren who lay down their lives to protect our right to bear arms.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

The Washington Post hired Megan McArdle this week, who famously said we should not ban guns, but should rather train children to gang rush shooters in schools. I shit you not.

Democracy dies in darkness.

McArdle would have to be on the level of Jamie fucking Kirchick as far as right-leaning anti-Trump pundits goes. Utterly reprehensible.

The New York Times is not much better, although their hiring and subsequent firing of Quinn Norton was hilarious.

All indications are that this Cruz customer is a white nationalist who liked Trump, said he wanted to kill Antifa, and was extremely anti-Muslim. But MAGA Twitter found a photo of a young Hispanic-looking man in a Communist T-shirt and have convinced themselves a) it's him and b) he's an Antifa communist Muslim. I guess because his name is Cruz and MAGA chuds would have no earthly idea about the prevalence of white people in Spain.

You can smell the desperation on the MAGA chuds whenever a tragedy like this happens. That they'd rather do this than try to distance themselves from white supremacists says a lot.

 

[PhilsFan]

The New York Times is not much better, although their hiring and subsequent firing of Quinn Norton was hilarious.

On cue!

[TWEET]964254626139828226[/TWEET]

Hall of Fame ratio on this one.

 

[Iggy Fizz]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, but I'm fucking throwing them anyway. Fuck your sick, twisted, disgusting country.

Fuck you.

 

[cobl04]

Fix your gun laws before you abuse me

 

[Nick66]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, but I'm fucking throwing them anyway. Fuck your sick, twisted, disgusting country.

Fix your gun laws before you abuse me

Americans have one of the most powerful political lobbying organisations in the world fighting gun control. To say nothing of the Second Amendment.

What's your excuse for your behaviour?

You're way out of line coming into this thread dropping crap like that. You want to play that game? Get yourself sorted on your aboriginal problem, including incarcerating them at record rates, before you start criticising other countries. Start treating asylum seekers better, including the practice of arbitrary detention, while you're at it. Do something about the endemic violence against women you've got there, particularly indigenous women, much of which is a product of your culture.

Fix all that before you come back in this thread...deal? At least you finally caught up on marriage equality, so good on you, mate.

I don't live in the US either, but I'm certainly not going to kick them when they're down, especially when the country I do live in has its share of problems. And I understand that a lot of Americans are trying to do the right thing. People of good will in the US are trying to fight the good fight and change things. Take a cue from Bono on this subject. As it is, you're not helping.

 

[Headache in a Suitcase]

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones, but I'm fucking throwing them anyway. Fuck your sick, twisted, disgusting country.

I have zero argument against this.

Zero.