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Old 10-02-2017, 08:21 PM   #541
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https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...ng-gun-control

Pro-2nd amendment musician changes his mind after being personally affected by gun violence and realising all the weapons he and his 'brothers' had were useless for multiple reasons. Highlights a startling lack of empathy among a significant portion of the American public, but ultimately better late than never if he remains vocal on his position.

America will never improve as a nation until it can admit and accept that it has failed as a nation. So much good has come out of it which has enriched the entire world, granted, but by clinging to the ideals that it's forefathers enshrined in its constitution hundreds of years ago means it is simply rotten to the core.

Americans are people, and people cannot be trusted with 'freedom'. People are dickbags, who go on shooting sprees when girls don't want to have sex with them. People who jack up the price of life saving drugs by 1000% for profit. People who want to cut their own taxes for a few extra million at the expense of others who struggle to keep a roof over their heads. People who boo an athlete for protesting during the anthem but celebrate their own liberation every July.

The American society of today has not lived up to the ideals upon which it was founded. It was a noble attempt but it has failed miserably. Americans aren't born any extra special than the rest of us and haven't earned any extra freedoms. The sooner it can accept that unfortunate truth, only then can it move forward.

In the meantime, those people with their heads in the sand will keep their elected officials on their side, especially with all the money being poured into their pockets.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:32 PM   #542
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That's one nice thing to read. But as others here have said and as is being repeated by some outlets right now, if there was nothing after Sandy Hook, nothing's gonna change.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:44 PM   #543
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That's one nice thing to read. But as others here have said and as is being repeated by some outlets right now, if there was nothing after Sandy Hook, nothing's gonna change.
I've seen a lot of this "well if nothing changed after Sandy Hook..." defeatism today.

I don't think it helps. It plays right into the hands of the NRA and all their cronies who enable mass murder.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:48 PM   #544
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Which ideals?
You do know the 2nd part of the 2nd Amendment is about "...a well regulated militia..." I wish I could remember a public radio piece on the evolution of the NRA and how it slowly distorted the 2nd Amendments original intention.

Many of the ideals are still excellent IF far from fully realized (and we keep protesting and working on them).

America STILL does a lot of good everyday. You just don't hear about it easily.
Would you call the people trying to work on live up to ideals of equality, justice, fairness
failures? I wouldn't.

Yes america is part America and part Amerika. But we struggle on to do better.

And I wouldn't quite be so judgemental as you haven't exactly have gotten full equality for your own native peoples the Aborigines.
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Old 10-02-2017, 08:49 PM   #545
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I have to agree, Axver. I totally get the despair and frustration everyone's feeling right now, believe me. And with a Republican majority in government, I'm even more sympathetic to the feelings of helplessness.

But yeah. This should continue to motivate us to keep pushing and keep banging the drum and demanding change instead. Even if the change is slow and small at first, any steps in the right direction are worth encouraging and supporting, and we need to keep fighting on all levels where possible, and throw our support behind organizations that try and push for tighter gun control.

And the NRA can fuck right off and disappear.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:00 PM   #546
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Which ideals?
You do know the 2nd part of the 2nd Amendment is about "...a well regulated militia..." I wish I could remember a public radio piece on the evolution of the NRA and how it slowly distorted the 2nd Amendments original intention.

Many of the ideals are still excellent IF far from fully realized (and we keep protesting and working on them).

America STILL does a lot of good everyday. You just don't hear about it easily.
Would you call the people trying to work on live up to ideals of equality, justice, fairness
failures? I wouldn't.

Yes america is part America and part Amerika. But we struggle on to do better.

And I wouldn't quite be so judgemental as you haven't exactly have gotten full equality for your own native peoples the Aborigines.


Woah where the fuck did this come from?

Australia is horribly racist, not to mention homophobic, and certainly no better in some regards, but not sure why you’re offended by some harsh truths.

If anything the response should be a call to arms to make America’s reality match with its ideals. Gun control and universal health care would be two good places to start.

Just ask us.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:09 PM   #547
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or us.

this time last week i sliced my leg wide open with a piece of broken glass sticking out of a garbage bag. i was home alone and called 911. the ambulance came and took me to the emergency room, i waited about two hours, got a dozen stitches and came home. today i got a bill in the mail for the ambulance ride, 45 bucks total. i can submit the invoice to my work health insurance and not pay a dime for treatment for an injury that could have killed me if i had left it untreated.

if i had to pay for all of that out of pocket, or a big insurance deductible, i'd be absolutely fucked because i need all my savings for moving at the end of the month. even though it wouldn't have been huge, the cost would definitely have come to mind after i realized i was hurt, and honestly would have made me think twice about calling for an ambulance, even though in hindsight i *absolutely* needed one.

i honestly don't understand how universal health care is such a hated thing for some people. it's such a no brainer the only difficulty should be in working out the ideal system. the benefits to society and individuals so far outweigh the costs and there are many good examples all over the world that can easily be pointed to.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:10 PM   #548
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America is a land of contradiction. We have these lofty founding ideals such as life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness...but the person who wrote that owned other people. We have never even come close to living up to our founding ideals. I'm with Cobbler on this one
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:21 PM   #549
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Open society and easy access to guns does not work.

Period.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:31 PM   #550
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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Originally Posted by dazzledbylight View Post


Which ideals?
You do know the 2nd part of the 2nd Amendment is about "...a well regulated militia..." I wish I could remember a public radio piece on the evolution of the NRA and how it slowly distorted the 2nd Amendments original intention.

Many of the ideals are still excellent IF far from fully realized (and we keep protesting and working on them).

America STILL does a lot of good everyday. You just don't hear about it easily.
Would you call the people trying to work on live up to ideals of equality, justice, fairness
failures? I wouldn't.

Yes america is part America and part Amerika. But we struggle on to do better.

And I wouldn't quite be so judgemental as you haven't exactly have gotten full equality for your own native peoples the Aborigines.


As cobs said, Australia has some deeply engrained issues that we're struggling with. We are far from perfect, but don't tout ourselves as such either. What I am indignant about is America's proud view of itself as a city on a shining hill / the Greatest Nation on Earth, of American Exceptionalism, of its God Given Rights based on a 200 year old document written by a group of mortal men.

Look at AEON repeatedly asking why some many people keep flocking to America, it must be because it's the best right? It's that arrogance and ultra patriotism that seems increasingly unjustified when looking at the reality of the situation.

I'm not ragging on having those ideals, and certainly not the people trying to live up to them, but merely having ideals doesn't mean you've followed through on them. I don't think America as a whole has. I hope you do better and I see the struggle to do better by many people, now including that dude in the news article who has found a new perspective on gun control. But until you change the underlying fabric of America (the Constitution) real change will never happen.

It's a hard truth and is definitely judgemental. I don't mean any personal offence, I enjoy your posts. And I'm not trying to sound superior, rather just saying that underneath it all America is just as shitty as the rest of us, just without the moment of awareness that leads to real change in this particular area. It's a shame you got so defensive when I criticised your country not living my up to its own standards, again like cobs said, prove me wrong, actually be better and truly lead the world if you want. But just claiming something doesn't make it so.

And I could go on about the free market being a great idea that has failed in some major aspects, but it ultimately boils down to people being selfish when edit unchecked.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:55 PM   #551
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I'm on vacation and received a text alert that there was a reported of an active shooter on my campus. Turns out a professor freaked out and made a false report. I was so scared for my coworkers, friends and our students. I hate that we live in a country where we have to regularly have active shooter drills at work.
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Old 10-02-2017, 09:58 PM   #552
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Apologies in advance for going on, but a bunch of this has been in my mind for a while now.

America has also failed to live up to its own fucking name. The United States of America is filled with people who strongly advocate for individual states rights, who believe that beyond the ancient and out of touch constitution, states should govern themselves. That's not being united. The very concept of federalism baffles me. I get that different states have different needs and such a large and varied country can't have one size fits all laws for everything, but healthcare? Gun laws? Splitting the country up has made these no win endeavours, which is so sad when they have so many other countries to look to and emulate. Watching marriage equality make a slow, state by state was frustrating when it should have been a national decision. Why does an American in one state have different rights to an American in another state? Thankfully that was passed, you're one up on Australia there.

I'm going in danger of just shouting at clouds now, but happy to discuss further with anyone.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:12 PM   #553
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Just lost my damn post

Will commence with a rewrite
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:33 PM   #554
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cobbler, mnkskn, Dave

I guess first>
"just ask us" Oh, I've been reading about, listening to (thank you public radio), and occasionally talking with Europeans, and Canadians for decades!
That's how i know about issues, and various policies in other countries (also rest of the World), and have learned from them. That's why I fight for single payer here, and at least keeping the ACA/Obamacare for now.

I hate the extreme forms of Capitalism -crony, laissez faire! Sometime soon I'll have to c&p FDR's Second Economic Bill of Rights that was lost because he died in office ( you might be amazed- I was -didn't even know about this till 5 yes ago!)
Even putting Social Security in place back then our Conservatives and right wing Republicans have been trying to dismantle it once it passed( they fought it tooth and nail) , along with the later on adoptions of Medicare & Medicaid! And other programs.

Will con't in a min ... OK onwards

They have been screaming "Socialism" since the 1940's on all if this! America could use some more Democratic socialism of the Nordic type.

You may not know the term "Amerika" (Dave might ) It was coined in "The 60's" (lived through that ) to denote racism , and other oppressions.
I rejected it early on not because of the racist aspect (I learned about racism early on), but people using it usually coupled it with hard socialism, or communism.

I can use it now because while I reject communism and hard socialism , but it still a quick trope to highlight certain issues I agree with, always along with America - the best of our ideals.

As to that - ideals...

I still think there us a lot of good in our Constitution and our Bull of Rights. And we dare NOT have a Constitutional Convention right with our current Congress and President!

I've heard at least one person on public radio say America is the first country to bind itself to such ideals.

Now as some of us make New Year's Resolutions each year (or not).... if you start but kind of fade away on it, and feel bad, try again IR try the next year- do you call yourself a "failed person"? More off you might say "aaaa, I screwed that up!".

That's why I reject, cobbler, you over arching "failed nation" appellation.

Is America in terrible, TERRIBLE trouble? YES, yes we are. But we are still fighting. As long as there are the "us" that are fighting - we have not failed.

I only am defensive about this point, not the individual issues you've pointed out. We have a loooong way to GI with our ideals but there are places and times where we have them much closer at least for awhile.

Oh yeah, and I believe in gun control!

I'll have to look more closely at your further states rights comments as I'm getting tired!
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:44 PM   #555
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i honestly don't understand how universal health care is such a hated thing for some people.
White people are too afraid that brown people are a) getting something they haven't earned or b) getting more than white people of the same station. They would rather no one get anything.
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Old 10-02-2017, 10:50 PM   #556
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

You know, it's not an easy thing walking through the world where everyone has an opinion/comment/grievance/criticism of your country, and they really want to tell you about it. Especially when people don't know nearly as much as they think they do, and there's a natural but annoying tendency to think 320m people are of one mind, or all act the same (the whole "you people" mentality, which is gross even when talking about the wealthy and the powerful) and there's a monocausal explanation for really complex realities. One thing I've learned over the years to try and do when I travel is to illuminate these complexities while at the same time *ask questions* and *listen* to people when they talk about their own countries rather than "let me tell you about your country." I know that I don't know things.

I generally agree with a lot of criticism, and I'm about as anti-gun and pro-health care as anyone in here, but there are reason why things are the way that they are, and we'd be better off learning why rather than finger wagging.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:17 PM   #557
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White people are too afraid that brown people are a) getting something they haven't earned or b) getting more than white people of the same station. They would rather no one get anything.
Ain't that the truth... Except since there still are for now over all more white people than people of color there are still more white people getting this help.
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:27 PM   #558
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Going off to the fun (more fun?) threads before my batts run out! later (tomorrow)!
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:23 AM   #559
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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You know, it's not an easy thing walking through the world where everyone has an opinion/comment/grievance/criticism of your country, and they really want to tell you about it. Especially when people don't know nearly as much as they think they do, and there's a natural but annoying tendency to think 320m people are of one mind, or all act the same (the whole "you people" mentality, which is gross even when talking about the wealthy and the powerful) and there's a monocausal explanation for really complex realities.
Did you mean to play the victim card here? It comes across as if the rest of the worlds continued dismay at America's ongoing mass shooting problem is somehow bigoted?

I don't lump every American into a hive mind, millions of Americans appear to be for progressive change whilst millions remain opposed. But this is a uniquely American problem (more guns and more gun deaths than any other developed nation) caused by a uniquely American issue (treating the Constitution as sacrosanct). It's similar to like him or not, and despite his vote count, Donald Trump represents every last living American on a global level. Some things you do get lumped in together for.

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One thing I've learned over the years to try and do when I travel is to illuminate these complexities while at the same time *ask questions* and *listen* to people when they talk about their own countries rather than "let me tell you about your country." I know that I don't know things.
There have been over 1500 posts regarding ongoing mass shootings on this American based forum, I think those of us from outside the US have listened up to this point. And do you think that while other countries have successfully taken steps to eradicate gun violence on this scale, we should still sit quietly and defer to America on the issue when it doesn't have any solution on the horizon? All America does is talk about the issue, it never acts. Personally, I'm proud to be a citizen of two nations which took swift and immediate action in the wake of a mass shooting. We've tried to tell America but it continues to fall on deaf ears.

Quote:
I generally agree with a lot of criticism, and I'm about as anti-gun and pro-health care as anyone in here, but there are reason why things are the way that they are, and we'd be better off learning why rather than finger wagging.

When you consider the countries doing the finger wagging already have functional national health services and working gun legislation, it kind of makes you guys look like extremely slow learners. As a nation, it is time to put aside the pride, hurt feelings and tatty constitution, and make some real fucking changes.
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Old 10-03-2017, 12:27 AM   #560
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Did you mean to play the victim card here? It comes across as if the rest of the worlds continued dismay at America's ongoing mass shooting problem is somehow bigoted?

I don't lump every American into a hive mind, but this is a uniquely American problem (more guns and more gun deaths than any other developed nation) caused by a uniquely American issue (treating the Constitution as sacrosanct). It's similar to like him or not, and despite his vote count, Donald Trump represents every last living American on a global level. Some things you do get lumped in together for.



There have been over 1500 posts regarding ongoing mass shootings on this American based forum, I think those of us from outside the US have listened up to this point. And do you think that while other countries have successfully taken steps to eradicate gun violence on this scale, we should still sit quietly and defer to America on the issue when it doesn't have any solution on the horizon? All America does is talk about the issue, it never acts. Personally, I'm proud to be a citizen of two nations which took swift and immediate action in the wake of a mass shooting. We've tried to tell America but it continues to fall on deaf ears.




When you consider the countries doing the finger wagging already have functional national health services and working gun legislation, it kind of makes you guys look like extremely slow learners. As a nation, it is time to put aside the pride, hurt feelings and tatty constitution, and make some real fucking changes.



So you kind of just did exactly what I was talking about, right down to the "you people."
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