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Old 06-21-2016, 10:22 PM   #21
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If the Left spent a little less time virtue signaling, we'd all be better off. "Do you want children to die?!?!"-type arguments make me, and I imagine others, not want to make common cause.


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Old 06-21-2016, 10:44 PM   #22
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If the Left spent a little less time virtue signaling, we'd all be better off. "Do you want children to die?!?!"-type arguments make me, and I imagine others, not want to make common cause.
If your only defense of maintaining the status quo is "Why can't the left be more diplomatic and polite after these shootings?" then I have no issue pointing out that the blood is on your hands.
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:01 PM   #23
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If the Left spent a little less time virtue signaling, we'd all be better off. "Do you want children to die?!?!"-type arguments make me, and I imagine others, not want to make common cause.
The right does the same thing with the "children" argument all the time. That's long been one of their many arguments against same-sex marriage, for example, or children being raised by same-sex couples-the supposed "negative effects/influence" of such a union on children.

And then of course there's the abortion issue, with the more extreme pro-lifers shoving photos of fetuses in people's faces, and going on and on about the lives those aborted babies could've had, and so on and so forth. Or how about conservatives who get all bent out of shape about rap music's influence on children, or Janet Jackson showing her nipple at the Super Bowl (kids might've been watching!!!!), or other things of that sort.

So I think the left has every right to pull that same card, especially considering how many children and teenagers have died in school shootings over the years. All the GOP lawmakers who claim to be so pro-life, all the people who wring their hands and go, "But what about the children?!?!" whenever any other politically charged issue that impacts kids comes up, they should've jumped at the chance to do something to stop this sort of tragedy after Sandy Hook, or Columbine, or Jonesboro, to name but a few of the many, many, MANY examples.

But for whatever reason, when it comes to the issue of guns, apparently even kids being killed isn't enough to get some people to budge from their "Second Amendment rights!" mantra, and I just cannot for the life of me understand why that's the case.
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:08 PM   #24
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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If your only defense of maintaining the status quo is "Why can't the left be more diplomatic and polite after these shootings?" then I have no issue pointing out that the blood is on your hands.

Just finished explaining how I support gun control and why I don't support some specific gun control measures in the last thread. Perhaps the Left could reallocate their time spent virtue signaling to reading, instead.

I tease. I know you probably just didn't see that. I do support gun control, though. I support gun control because the numbers support gun control. I tire of appeals to emotions. Children can tell me how a bill makes them feel. Win the battle of ideas.

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The right does the same thing with the "children" argument all the time. That's long been one of their many arguments against same-sex marriage, for example, or children being raised by same-sex couples-the supposed "negative effects/influence" of such a union on children.

And then of course there's the abortion issue, with the more extreme pro-lifers shoving photos of fetuses in people's faces, and going on and on about the lives those aborted babies could've had, and so on and so forth. Or how about conservatives who get all bent out of shape about rap music's influence on children, or Janet Jackson showing her nipple at the Super Bowl (kids might've been watching!!!!), or other things of that sort.

So I think the left has every right to pull that same card, especially considering how many children and teenagers have died in school shootings over the years. All the GOP lawmakers who claim to be so pro-life, all the people who wring their hands and go, "But what about the children?!?!" whenever any other politically charged issue that impacts kids comes up, they should've jumped at the chance to do something to stop this sort of tragedy after Sandy Hook, or Columbine, or Jonesboro, to name but a few of the many, many, MANY examples.

But for whatever reason, when it comes to the issue of guns, apparently even kids being killed isn't enough to get some people to budge from their "Second Amendment rights!" mantra, and I just cannot for the life of me understand why that's the case.

And we've collectively mocked the Right each time. And they've lost. Each time. I'm not really playing team sports, here.

I will never understand the "they did it first!" defense. However, I suppose it makes sense that it would be used in defense of these current gun control measures, as the measures themselves are basically saying the same thing, with "it" being the Patriot Act.

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Old 06-21-2016, 11:19 PM   #25
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If the Left spent a little less time virtue signaling, we'd all be better off. "Do you want children to die?!?!"-type arguments make me, and I imagine others, not want to make common cause.


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You realize how silly this is right? What about the "armed teachers will save your children", the "this gun is just aesthetically menacing" memes, or the "I'll be prepared when Obama declares martial law so Trump won't be president" arguments?




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Old 06-21-2016, 11:24 PM   #26
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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You realize how silly this is right? What about the "armed teachers will save your children", the "this gun is just aesthetically menacing" memes, or the "I'll be prepared when Obama declares martial law so Trump won't be president" arguments?




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You realize that this is a non sequitur.

Here, let me give you an example of why this doesn't make sense.

If I were to say, "Fuck Michael Jackson for having child porn," saying, "Hey now! Jared from subway had it too!" is not a good rebuttal.

The Right's has historically done their fair share of virtue signaling. That's why they saw a mass exodus of younger voters. But by all means, follow suit in the name of fairness.

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Old 06-21-2016, 11:25 PM   #27
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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And we've collectively mocked the Right each time. And they've lost. Each time. I'm not really playing team sports, here.

And they've lost? How do you figure?


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Old 06-21-2016, 11:26 PM   #28
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And they've lost? How do you figure?


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The issues mentioned were same sex marriage, same sex adoption, abortion, sexuality on television, and rap music. Tell me which of those issues the Right won on.


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Old 06-21-2016, 11:27 PM   #29
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"I'll be prepared when Obama declares martial law so Trump won't be president"




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I have canned goods to last years, Reba McEntire and Michael Gross's arsenal from Tremors, and I just kidnapped Mary Elizabeth Winstead to live as my girlfriend in my doomsday bunker when that day comes.


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Old 06-21-2016, 11:32 PM   #30
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You realize that this is a non sequitur.

Here, let me give you an example of why this doesn't make sense.

If I were to say, "Fuck Michael Jackson for having child porn," saying, "Hey now! Jared from subway had it too!" is not a good rebuttal.

The Right's has historically done their fair share of virtue signaling. That's why they saw a mass exodus of younger voters. But by all means, follow suit in the name of fairness.

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You're kind of all over the place and not making sense.

Your analogy doesn't work because I don't hear anyone saying, if one more person defends Michael Jackson it almost makes me want to be a Jarrod fan.

And what exactly does fairness have to do with this? If you want to be fair point out both sides, but don't point out one and say it makes you want to go against all logic while you sweep the other side under the rug.


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Old 06-21-2016, 11:34 PM   #31
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The issues mentioned were same sex marriage, same sex adoption, abortion, sexuality on television, and rap music. Tell me which of those issues the Right won on.


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Fair enough, I was sticking to the subject and not that particular context.


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Old 06-21-2016, 11:36 PM   #32
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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You're kind of all over the place and not making sense.

Your analogy doesn't work because I don't hear anyone saying, if one more person defends Michael Jackson it almost makes me want to be a Jarrod fan.

And what exactly does fairness have to do with this? If you want to be fair point out both sides, but don't point out one and say it makes you want to go against all logic while you sweep the other side under the rug.


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I say it's annoying when the Left does X. You say "well the Right does X too!!!" Congratulations? Fuck the Right for doing that too? I'm not defending the Right, and your insistence on defending bad positions by trying to say that, since both sides are doing it, it's not a bad position, is silliness.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I'm sweeping the other side under the rug. Since no one had mentioned anything to do with the Right saying "think of the children," when I made my original remark, why would I randomly bring it up?

Finally, i said it makes me not want to make common cause. I did not say it made me want to join the other side on this. Words -- they mean things.
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:40 PM   #33
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I have canned goods to last years, Reba McEntire and Michael Gross's arsenal from Tremors, and I just kidnapped Mary Elizabeth Winstead to live as my girlfriend in my doomsday bunker when that day comes.


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And after all of you have locked your time capsules, you realize Obama is just going to say "just kidding. The crazies have now locked themselves away, let's party!"

In a way, Trump will make America great again.


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Old 06-21-2016, 11:46 PM   #34
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And we've collectively mocked the Right each time. And they've lost. Each time. I'm not really playing team sports, here.
Didn't mean to imply you specifically were, sorry, was just speaking in a general sense.

And I'm glad that you and some other conservatives out there have tried to speak out against the right using tactics like that. I don't really see or hear that sort of call out much in the media, though. And if the right's lost on those issues, then someone needs to remind them of that fact, 'cause conservative politicians and pundits keep trying to bring those sorts of arguments up to this day regardless, and still keep trying to pass restrictive anti-abortion or anti-LGBT related legislation.

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I will never understand the "they did it first!" defense. However, I suppose it makes sense that it would be used in defense of these current gun control measures, as the measures themselves are basically saying the same thing, with "it" being the Patriot Act.
I didn't mean to make that sound like a a "They did it first!" argument, 'cause you're right, I don't want to play that sort of game, either. I was more just pointing out the fact that children are always going to be brought up whenever a political/cultural issue is discussed throughout the country. And with the gun violence debate especially, it really shouldn't be a surprise that some people will use them as part of their argument.
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Old 06-21-2016, 11:48 PM   #35
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This really isn't difficult to follow. I say it's annoying when the Left does X. You say "well the Right does X too!!!" Congratulations? Fuck the Right for doing that too? I'm not defending the Right, and your insistence on defending bad positions by trying to say that, since both sides are doing it, it's not a bad position, is silliness.

I have no idea what you're talking about when you say I'm sweeping the other side under the rug. Since no one had mentioned anything to do with the Right saying "think of the children," when I made my original remark, why would I randomly bring it up?

Finally, i said it makes me not want to make common cause. I did not say it made me want to join the other side on this. Words -- they mean things.
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My whole point is that its ridiculous to ever say, no matter what side, "this side saying X" makes me not want to find common cause.

And now that you've admitted both sides do so, can you understand how silly it is to single out one side and say their "virtue signaling" basically wants to make you go against your own conscience?


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Old 06-22-2016, 12:10 AM   #36
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Ongoing Mass Shootings Thread pt 2

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My whole point is that its ridiculous to ever say, no matter what side, "this side saying X" makes me not want to find common cause.

And now that you've admitted both sides do so, can you understand how silly it is to single out one side and say their "virtue signaling" basically wants to make you go against your own conscience?


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No, not really. On this particular issue, the Right has logical objection to the terror watchlist restrictions. I'm not gonna play CNN and insult both sides when - on this particular issue - only one is appealing directly to emotion.

Now, I could insult the Right all day. But in this particular forum, I wouldn't get much entertainment from simply piling on.

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Old 06-22-2016, 12:14 AM   #37
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And after all of you have locked your time capsules, you realize Obama is just going to say "just kidding. The crazies have now locked themselves away, let's party!"

In a way, Trump will make America great again.


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Haha. I'll stay hunkered down with MEW till death do us part.


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Old 06-22-2016, 01:34 AM   #38
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I just stumbled across this, which I don't recall seeing in the last thread: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ommit-a-crime/

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But the latest research on the prevalence of firearm use in self-defense finds that these incidents are much less common that many gun rights advocates believe. Eor every person who uses a gun in self-defense, the research finds, nearly six people use a gun to commit a crime.

Those figures come from a Harvard University analysis of data from the federal National Crime Victimization Survey. David Hemenway, director of the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, examined five years of data from the survey covering the period between 2007 and 2011, with responses from nearly 160,000 individuals.

Hemenway found that not only are self-defense gun uses rare -- people defended themselves with a gun in roughly 0.9 percent of crimes committed over this period -- but in many cases they don't lead to better outcomes for crime victims.

"The likelihood of injury when there was a self-defense gun use (10.9%) was basically identical to the likelihood of injury when the victim took no action at all (11.0%)," Hemenway and co-author Sara J. Solnik found.
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Old 06-22-2016, 02:18 AM   #39
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But if it weren't for all the good people with guns, the crime rates would soar by an estimated 900% and we'd have even more murders. It's a tricky situation. Oh, and freedom.
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Old 06-22-2016, 03:58 AM   #40
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For every person who uses a gun in self-defense, the research finds, nearly six people use a gun to commit a crime.
I don't doubt that. Setting aside the people who collect antique guns purely for decoration/historian's sake, people don't buy a gun if they don't honestly believe there's a possibility they'll have to actually use it at some point in their life, be it on an animal or another human. It doesn't exactly take a large leap for some people to go from that line of thought to thinking of committing an intentionally violent act against somebody.

And the self-defense argument is especially ridiculous when you think about the fact that many people who buy guns for that reason often wind up being injured or killed by their very own guns. And they're usually shot by somebody they know, who has equally easy access to their guns. With the mass shootings that have occurred thus far, the shooter was NOT stopped by a civilian with a gun. The shooters were either taken down by trained law enforcement officials, or they killed themselves.

And the stories I have heard of civilians getting involved in some shooting incidents, more often than not, they managed to talk the shooter down, or tackled them without having a weapon of their own on hand. So where people are getting this grandiose idea that they're going to be the big action hero who comes in with their own arsenal of guns to save the day, I don't exactly know.
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