ongoing mass shootings thread

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Jive Turkey said:
You can't assume causation. I'm sure there's more gun ownership in the south. I'm sure there's more racism in the south. I'm sure there's more grits in the south. There's no more reason to assume one of these factors in any way causes the other
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I'm pretty sure that guns cause grits, which cause racism.
 
Jive Turkey said:
You can't assume causation. I'm sure there's more gun ownership in the south. I'm sure there's more racism in the south. I'm sure there's more grits in the south. There's no more reason to assume one of these factors in any way causes the other
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i'd agree. i also agree that just because you are a gun owner doesn't mean you are a racist. nor do i think that because you're a racist, you're necessarily going to become a gun owner.

but let's focus on the (peer reviewed) study. it does not suggest that beliefs about guns are caused by white racism. it is not arguing that having a gun necessarily makes one more likely to be a racist. the study also isn't saying that conservatives are racists or bigots, nor does their research indicate that all gun owners are racists. it would be better for 2nd Amendment pressure groups if the study actually did say that. it doesn't.

i think it's important to first understand what social scientists do and what they do not do, so that we don't just dismiss things because we don't like their conclusions. as much as one might say that the results of this study advance a particular agenda, it also just as easily (if not more) advances an agenda opposite to the one that it might appear to support. in fact, i'd say that a study like this might actually worsen the case for gun control, because it gives people to throw their hands in the air and do the "oh. my. GOD! i am NOT a racist!" and thus end any sort of dialogue to be had on the subject of gun ownership and racism. the suggestion that white people's levels of racial resentment may be related to gun ownership is bound to upset white victimologists.

notably, this study focuses on symbolic racism -- so the number of times you use the N-word or attend a Klan rally isn't applicable here. symbolic racism symbolic racism emphasizes a narrative of black criminals and white vicitims (see the present hysteria about The Knockout Game for a recent example). this dynamic has been present in America since it's founding.

sometimes, answers are complex, and a combination of yes and no.
 
There are peer reviewed articled published all the time that appear to show correlations where there are none. All that means is their methods were sound. You can find peer reviewed articles linking olive oil and reduced heart disease. Red wine and reduced heard disease. Fighter performance and whether or not they smiled during the weigh ins. The answers are complex. So complex that it's nearly pointless to draw conclusions like that from them. It only adds more useless noise to an already noisy issue.

I was being tongue in cheek with the grits thing, but I can pretty much guarantee you'll find an apparent link between grits and gun ownership. Also in cowboy hats and gun ownership.

What do you think the study is trying to say?
 
Jive Turkey said:
What do you think the study is trying to say?
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i think the study is saying that they found a link between gun ownership and symbolic racism.

and i, myself, think this also links to the earlier article i posted about the 11 different nations within North America.
 
There's a correlation, sure. But that doesn't mean anything. If I found a correlation between racism and goatees, what would you take from that?
 
Jive Turkey said:
There's a correlation, sure. But that doesn't mean anything. If I found a correlation between racism and goatees, what would you take from that?
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I think you might be oversimplifying.

I agree, the rule of social science is that correlation doesn't prove causation, but I also don't think the study is making the claims being ascribed to it.
 
For argument's sake, let's say I am oversimplifying. What are we to do with this data? Is it implying that resistance to gun control is at least partly based on racism?
 
Jive Turkey said:
For argument's sake, let's say I am oversimplifying. What are we to do with this data? Is it implying that resistance to gun control is at least partly based on racism?
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The data may help us understand why there is, in part, deeply ingrained resistance to gun control. It's not a political recommendation, but it can help inform policy as it is created, as well as help us understand why there is resistance to gun control. It's not that gun owners are stupid, nor is it to say that gun owners are racist, but it is to say that part of the appeal of guns has to do with cultural historical narratives that are racist.
 
According to the most recent press conference, the shooter was looking to kill a teacher and shot at least one student who confronted him. The suspect committed suicide.
 
lebowski%2BDude%2BWalter%2BDonnie.jpg
 
^ I'm sorry you'll have to excuse my inferior pea-brained mind I don't get the ref......oh wait.....I GET IT!!!!!! WOW you are soooooo witty!!!!!!!!!
 
Do you give lessons? Cause I always thought I was a pretty capable smartass, but you are clearly on a whole other level. I mean, to take time to find that picture and post it in response to my comment was just GENIUS!!!! I'd love to learn a thing or 2.
 
bigjohn2441 said:
Do you give lessons? Cause I always thought I was a pretty capable smartass, but you are clearly on a whole other level. I mean, to take time to find that picture and post it in response to my comment was just GENIUS!!!! I'd love to learn a thing or 2.
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you could start by reading a few pages back on the study and the discussion we had around it.

here you go: PLOS ONE: Racism, Gun Ownership and Gun Control: Biased Attitudes in US Whites May Influence Policy Decisions
 
bigjohn2441 said:
Do you give lessons? Cause I always thought I was a pretty capable smartass, but you are clearly on a whole other level. I mean, to take time to find that picture and post it in response to my comment was just GENIUS!!!! I'd love to learn a thing or 2.
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i give lessons but it'll cost ya
 
I'm sorry but why should I trust anyone with a gun?

We keep hearing about good guys with guns is what keeps us safe, but a retired captain of the police would seem like a "good guy".

I am all for protecting yourself and loved ones in your own home. If someone breaks in and you are in danger I get that the cops aren't going to arrive in seconds.

But this business of carrying your weapon around in public, that's putting way too much trust in the public. And we've shown ourselves to be unfit to carry weapons.
 
I love to travel, but I have to say the United States is the only country that I go to where I modify my behaviour, put my head down, and try to just go about my business without getting noticed. You just never know who has anger management issues and a gun. You want to cut me off on the highway? Sure, go ahead, I'll just smile at you.
 
BoMac said:
I love to travel, but I have to say the United States is the only country that I go to where I modify my behaviour, put my head down, and try to just go about my business without getting noticed. You just never know who has anger management issues and a gun. You want to cut me off on the highway? Sure, go ahead, I'll just smile at you.
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Do you really feel that way?

I can honestly say I felt far less safe in many, many places in the world than I did when I lived in the US (NYC) or when I visit there. Maybe because I've been to some dodgy places but as much as the US gun culture is insane in my eyes, it's nowhere near comparable for me to some other places I've been.
 
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